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bsmguy
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:44 pm

Post by bsmguy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:37 am

These two guys should transfer to a strong AA Metro program or their games will stagnate. They have mastered the Class A Hockey level, so it is time to move on.

Remember the two brothers form Moose Lake a few years ago? Where are they now??

The point is that Class A is no longer a challenge for these guys. They should move up.

Sats81
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:29 am

Post by Sats81 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:17 am

bsmguy wrote:These two guys should transfer to a strong AA Metro program or their games will stagnate. They have mastered the Class A Hockey level, so it is time to move on.

Remember the two brothers form Moose Lake a few years ago? Where are they now??

The point is that Class A is no longer a challenge for these guys. They should move up.
Was actually just thinking the same thing. The Cisar brothers. One of them almost took the overall state scoring title in 2012 I believe until Kloos beat him out.

OU812
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Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:40 pm

Post by OU812 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:20 am

Tyler Cisar (a '95) from Moose Lake had 177 pts in three years for Moose Lake Area, then played a year for Aberdeen in the NAHL in 2012-2013, where he had 11 pts in 52 games. Josh Cisar was the other brother at Moose Lake with over 100 career pts, but I don't think he played after high school.

bsmguy
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Post by bsmguy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:57 am

That is a cautionary tale.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:41 pm

OU812 wrote:Tyler Cisar (a '95) from Moose Lake had 177 pts in three years for Moose Lake Area, then played a year for Aberdeen in the NAHL in 2012-2013, where he had 11 pts in 52 games. Josh Cisar was the other brother at Moose Lake with over 100 career pts, but I don't think he played after high school.
I think this is apples and oranges. The Cisars had zero hype before their big breakout year, and a scout I know went up to see them to see what all the fuss was about. His reaction? "They might--might--make the Duluth East third line." Anyone who actually saw them play in high school knew it was going to end that way.

Smedsrud and (especially) Nelson, on the other hand, have gotten plenty of recognition for their potential all along, and their performance in other leagues and tryouts backs that up. They are not the Cisars.

As anyone who's followed the HS game long enough knows, points can, and often do, lie. Maybe the kid with 90 points is a Tyler Cisar; maybe he's a Ben Hanowski or a Joey Benik. Things worked out fine for those two. You have to trust your eyes--which is what any scout with a brain does. I always laugh when I see people freaking out about alleged phantom assists and such. If you think a handful of extra points are going to make or break a D-I career, you're deluded. It's all about passing the eye test, and performance in the Elite League, HP, etc.

For the players who are in these small towns with weak schedules, all they can do is keep on piling up the points; there's plenty of honor in breaking team records and putting a program on the map. Sooner or later, people will notice and come take a look. They just need to accept that everyone will take those point totals with a grain of salt.

Even at schools with strong schedules, points don't necessarily tell the whole story. Dave Spehar, anyone? As great a HS player as he was, if you go back and watch the old videos, it doesn't take a hockey genius to see the holes in his game. (Perhaps his college coach should have done a better job of playing to his strengths, but I digress...)

OU812
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Post by OU812 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:56 pm

Karl, great points.

Btw, I didn't mean I thought Tyler Cisar putting up 11 points in 52 games as a 17 year old in the NAHL was a bad showing. On the contrary, I think most Minnesota 17 year olds (even some from Duluth East) would be glad to have that as a first year in juniors.

notTONIGHT
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Post by notTONIGHT » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:32 pm

karl(east) wrote:
OU812 wrote:Tyler Cisar (a '95) from Moose Lake had 177 pts in three years for Moose Lake Area, then played a year for Aberdeen in the NAHL in 2012-2013, where he had 11 pts in 52 games. Josh Cisar was the other brother at Moose Lake with over 100 career pts, but I don't think he played after high school.
I think this is apples and oranges. The Cisars had zero hype before their big breakout year, and a scout I know went up to see them to see what all the fuss was about. His reaction? "They might--might--make the Duluth East third line." Anyone who actually saw them play in high school knew it was going to end that way.

Smedsrud and (especially) Nelson, on the other hand, have gotten plenty of recognition for their potential all along, and their performance in other leagues and tryouts backs that up. They are not the Cisars.

As anyone who's followed the HS game long enough knows, points can, and often do, lie. Maybe the kid with 90 points is a Tyler Cisar; maybe he's a Ben Hanowski or a Joey Benik. Things worked out fine for those two. You have to trust your eyes--which is what any scout with a brain does. I always laugh when I see people freaking out about alleged phantom assists and such. If you think a handful of extra points are going to make or break a D-I career, you're deluded. It's all about passing the eye test, and performance in the Elite League, HP, etc.

For the players who are in these small towns with weak schedules, all they can do is keep on piling up the points; there's plenty of honor in breaking team records and putting a program on the map. Sooner or later, people will notice and come take a look. They just need to accept that everyone will take those point totals with a grain of salt.

Even at schools with strong schedules, points don't necessarily tell the whole story. Dave Spehar, anyone? As great a HS player as he was, if you go back and watch the old videos, it doesn't take a hockey genius to see the holes in his game. (Perhaps his college coach should have done a better job of playing to his strengths, but I digress...)
Image

notTONIGHT
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Post by notTONIGHT » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:39 pm

bsmguy wrote:These two guys should transfer to a strong AA Metro program or their games will stagnate. They have mastered the Class A Hockey level, so it is time to move on.

Remember the two brothers form Moose Lake a few years ago? Where are they now??

The point is that Class A is no longer a challenge for these guys. They should move up.
On a more serious note, I will say that I think you are right, if a player pours on points in a weak class A section and doesn't engage in any other leagues or events their game will stagnate. However, if you get creative with your schedule outside of the winter I.E. Elite league, HP's, camps, and other quality ice time, your game can thrive. Time will tell with their future. One thing is certain, like Karl said, they are not the Cisar's.

Sats81
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:29 am

Post by Sats81 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:49 pm

Don't know much about the Smedsrud kid, but Jaxon Nelson is a phenomenal young talent and no question will play D1.

Sats81
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Post by Sats81 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:55 pm

karl(east) wrote:
OU812 wrote:Tyler Cisar (a '95) from Moose Lake had 177 pts in three years for Moose Lake Area, then played a year for Aberdeen in the NAHL in 2012-2013, where he had 11 pts in 52 games. Josh Cisar was the other brother at Moose Lake with over 100 career pts, but I don't think he played after high school.
I think this is apples and oranges. The Cisars had zero hype before their big breakout year, and a scout I know went up to see them to see what all the fuss was about. His reaction? "They might--might--make the Duluth East third line." Anyone who actually saw them play in high school knew it was going to end that way.

Smedsrud and (especially) Nelson, on the other hand, have gotten plenty of recognition for their potential all along, and their performance in other leagues and tryouts backs that up. They are not the Cisars.

As anyone who's followed the HS game long enough knows, points can, and often do, lie. Maybe the kid with 90 points is a Tyler Cisar; maybe he's a Ben Hanowski or a Joey Benik. Things worked out fine for those two. You have to trust your eyes--which is what any scout with a brain does. I always laugh when I see people freaking out about alleged phantom assists and such. If you think a handful of extra points are going to make or break a D-I career, you're deluded. It's all about passing the eye test, and performance in the Elite League, HP, etc.

For the players who are in these small towns with weak schedules, all they can do is keep on piling up the points; there's plenty of honor in breaking team records and putting a program on the map. Sooner or later, people will notice and come take a look. They just need to accept that everyone will take those point totals with a grain of salt.

Even at schools with strong schedules, points don't necessarily tell the whole story. Dave Spehar, anyone? As great a HS player as he was, if you go back and watch the old videos, it doesn't take a hockey genius to see the holes in his game. (Perhaps his college coach should have done a better job of playing to his strengths, but I digress...)
The object of hockey is to put the puck in the net. Spehar did that in HS unlike anyone before him and very few after. His prolific goal scoring heavily overshadowed his poor skating, size, lack of physical play, grit, etc. Woog and others were enamored with his ability to score at almost any angle and to shine on the biggest of stages. Take away his senior year in college (when Lucia took over) and he is nearly a point per game player his first 3 years. Nothing to hang your head over. If one were to look back at his HS career (before he played college) his trajectory wasn't going much higher, so people who act surprised that he wasn't a Hobey Baker guy or didn't play beyond college didn't watch him closely enough.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:57 pm

OU812 wrote:Karl, great points.

Btw, I didn't mean I thought Tyler Cisar putting up 11 points in 52 games as a 17 year old in the NAHL was a bad showing. On the contrary, I think most Minnesota 17 year olds (even some from Duluth East) would be glad to have that as a first year in juniors.
Yeah, I don't mean to pile on the Cisars too much. (The DE comment was not-East-affiliated friend's words, not mine, and this was in 2012, the year East was just loaded.) Tyler didn't have a bad showing, and who knows, maybe he just decided to move on and do other things with life the next year instead of trying to fight through 2 more years of cutthroat junior hockey in the pursuit of a long shot scholarship. I'd respect that. But despite similar point totals against similar schedules, the Cisars' performance at Moose Lake just doesn't compare with Nelson's at Luverne.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:05 pm

Sats81 wrote:The object of hockey is to put the puck in the net. Spehar did that in HS unlike anyone before him and very few after. His prolific goal scoring heavily overshadowed his poor skating, size, lack of physical play, grit, etc. Woog and others were enamored with his ability to score at almost any angle and to shine on the biggest of stages. Take away his senior year in college (when Lucia took over) and he is nearly a point per game player his first 3 years. Nothing to hang your head over. If one were to look back at his HS career (before he played college) his trajectory wasn't going much higher, so people who act surprised that he wasn't a Hobey Baker guy or didn't play beyond college didn't watch him closely enough.
Exactly. I'm too young to really remember Spehar's years as a Gopher, but I do know John Gilbert, the Duluth hockey writer and long time Strib scribe, has ripped on Woog for trying to turn Spehar into more of a grinder instead of just turning him loose. If true, that was probably a mistake, though to be fair, what works in high school doesn't necessarily work as well in college.

observer
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Post by observer » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:28 pm

Do the big school players have better team mates and line mates to help with scoring?
In the metro the kids all train together and know who's real regardless of points.

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