Monticello - Annandale - Maple Lake = Class A?

[HShockeywatcher]

So, what's the verdict? They are listed in 8AA on the Hub and 5A on minnesota scores...

Also, to the questions people have asked that haven't been answered:
-"Our athletic director wrote a letter to the high school league that talked about the fact that we have never won a quarterfinal game in the history of our program," Moose coach Sheldon Weston said. "He also noted that from four years old to 14, we have only seven players from Maple Lake and 18 from Annandale in our youth program out of 165."-

Monti lists their enrollment at 1115. That would put them in class A without the Coop numbers. How many are they getting from Annandale and Maple Lake? Very proactive move, not a trophy grab. I think they have like 200 kids in their youth program.

This has always been my thinking with co-ops. Schools are generally co-oping to help one or both programs field a team, not joining to be a super power. The Minneapolis schools haven't come together for state domination; they have come together because they can't field a team with less than the 7 schools in the city. When an 8th grader makes varsity, do we use the middle school's enrollment too? etc, etc

I've also always thought that somehow using the number of students who try out of the team would make more sense for a sport like hockey (and probably a few others) than what we typically use [and would probably take care of any private school problem that exists].

[HShockeywatcher]

Well, they're 5A on mshsl.org...someone should tell LPH and the Hub

[MrBoDangles]

So, what's the verdict? They are listed in 8AA on the Hub and 5A on minnesota scores...

Also, to the questions people have asked that haven't been answered:
-"Our athletic director wrote a letter to the high school league that talked about the fact that we have never won a quarterfinal game in the history of our program," Moose coach Sheldon Weston said. "He also noted that from four years old to 14, we have only seven players from Maple Lake and 18 from Annandale in our youth program out of 165."-

Monti lists their enrollment at 1115. That would put them in class A without the Coop numbers. How many are they getting from Annandale and Maple Lake? Very proactive move, not a trophy grab. I think they have like 200 kids in their youth program.

This has always been my thinking with co-ops. Schools are generally co-oping to help one or both programs field a team, not joining to be a super power. The Minneapolis schools haven't come together for state domination; they have come together because they can't field a team with less than the 7 schools in the city. When an 8th grader makes varsity, do we use the middle school's enrollment too? etc, etc

I've also always thought that somehow using the number of students who try out of the team would make more sense for a sport like hockey (and probably a few others) than what we typically use [and would probably take care of any private school problem that exists].

Plenty of other programs that would have been better candidates.. Look at how Cambridge has been pounded in section play.. And I know their median household income, and attendance, is way down from monticello's for attracting new players. Each of those schools in the co-op have their own football teams for kripes sake.. Mora has to compete on their own in 5A with only Annandale type numbers.

The MAML co-op has close to 2000 students, the rest of the 5A schools have 300 to 900 (Some of these are Co-ops)!!! Somebody from MAML obviously had some huge pull in the MSHSL...

Monticello would be a very large class A school on their own and would be a perfectly legit fit in 5A! How much of the current varsity talent comes from the Annandale and Maple Lake schools? I KNOW that their best player does and I'm sure the "Westy" that you were quoting, was trying to downplay the level of athletes coming in from those schools.. Then add in their European recruiting effort for their fake - plastic trophy grab..

I also don't understand the mpls (sympathy) move down, but Breck and etc might not be any easier to go through.

Always just trying to keep things fair and in order... Sorry I got your STA moved up to the appropriate level..

[HShockeywatcher]

You seem to be arguing for results based classification, which is the exact opposite of what I'm saying. The rules for co-ops are silly and against the whole idea; "oh, you're small schools who can't form teams on your own and independently would be in the lower division, but together you're in the higher division." Makes no sense.

How many students from Mora play hockey? Apparently there are 18 from Annandale in the youth program. The number of students means less in hockey than almost any other sport, especially with coops.

Not really the place for that conversation, but if you were actively paying attention during my discussions about STA I was saying the same thing; class shouldn't be about talent and there are other ways to determine class in hockey that would put them (and other private schools) in AA.

[MrBoDangles]

You seem to be arguing for results based classification, which is the exact opposite of what I'm saying. The rules for co-ops are silly and against the whole idea; "oh, you're small schools who can't form teams on your own and independently would be in the lower division, but together you're in the higher division." Makes no sense.

How many students from Mora play hockey? Apparently there are 18 from Annandale in the youth program. The number of students means less in hockey than almost any other sport, especially with coops.

Not really the place for that conversation, but if you were actively paying attention during my discussions about STA I was saying the same thing; class shouldn't be about talent and there are other ways to determine class in hockey that would put them (and other private schools) in AA.

Ok?..?..? Then about 20 other programs are much better suited to have moved to class A.. MAML has EVERYTHING in place where they should be a Class AA program. You earn it and build it with what you have!!! Drop the other two schools if you want to play Class A!

Done with it.. Please don't respond

[HShockeywatcher]

So...like I said...you are using more than enrollment and the reason for co-oping. If Monticello is a Class A team enrollment wise (they are), then why would adding schools that have added 7 and 18 players to their youth program be the reason to tip the sales?

[MrBoDangles]

So...like I said...you are using more than enrollment and the reason for co-oping. If Monticello is a Class A team enrollment wise (they are), then why would adding schools that have added 7 and 18 players to their youth program be the reason to tip the sales?

7 + 18 = 25

Many of these 5A associations only have 50 - 100 boy skaters in their association.. Do you comprehend how senseless your comment is now?

End

[InYourFace09]

So...like I said...you are using more than enrollment and the reason for co-oping. If Monticello is a Class A team enrollment wise (they are), then why would adding schools that have added 7 and 18 players to their youth program be the reason to tip the sales?

7 + 18 = 25

Many of these 5A associations only have 50 - 100 boy skaters in their association.. Do you comprehend how senseless your comment is now?

End

Ok so it is 25 players....What if they were in a different section than 5A? Would you have the same beef? Or is it because they have legit shot of winning the marginal section?

[MrBoDangles]

Simply giving a view from these associations when "Westy" minimalized 25 extra players.. Again, some of these associations have around 50 total.

Anybody out there able to break down what schools (and country) they"re from? I know that their best player comes from one of the schools..

[elliott70]

I think the beef is with MSHSL.
They have rules and they have rules...
which is it.

Monticello, they want to win, nothing wrong with that. But how many teams get to state every year, 8 at each level.
In 8A who gets to state, EGF, TRF and Warroad. The LOW, Hallock, RLF, Crookston, DL and PR of the world keep putting a team on the ice based on the rules give it their best and will almost never make it to state.
Bemidji and Roseau keep battling up at the AA level. They get to state sometimes but more often they are around 500, but we still cheer and enjoy their efforts.

Monticello may get to state but there will be less people cheering for them than had they won a quarterfinal game in AA.

[zooomx]

Seems like every year, there will be handful of schools that will be targeted as sandbagging in A hockey. Really it does get old. First, it's the privates. Then it's the Hermantowns of the world. Now, MAML. Are we going to target River Lakes next? They moved down to A and have big enrollment due to their big co-op. A co-op that exists to give kids a chance to play somewhere. They would have no place to play if not for the co-op. They belong in A in my opinion.

Maybe we should go to 4-5 classes of hockey so everyone gets a trophy. If we did there would still be complainers that teams are in the wrong class. MSHSL has a tough call on these situations and I am sure they are trying their best to do what's right. Lot's of gray area and it's not a black and white call.

Frankly, Section 5a has been a pretty weak section and rarely, if ever, makes noise at State. Possibly, the presence of MAML will help make the whole section more competitive? If MAML starts making noise at State, then it makes sense to complain, but until then...

[MrBoDangles]

Seems like every year, there will be handful of schools that will be targeted as sandbagging in A hockey. Really it does get old. First, it's the privates. Then it's the Hermantowns of the world. Now, MAML. Are we going to target River Lakes next? They moved down to A and have big enrollment due to their big co-op. A co-op that exists to give kids a chance to play somewhere. They would have no place to play if not for the co-op. They belong in A in my opinion.

Maybe we should go to 4-5 classes of hockey so everyone gets a trophy. If we did there would still be complainers that teams are in the wrong class. MSHSL has a tough call on these situations and I am sure they are trying their best to do what's right. Lot's of gray area and it's not a black and white call.

Frankly, Section 5a has been a pretty weak section and rarely, if ever, makes noise at State. Possibly, the presence of MAML will help make the whole section more competitive? If MAML starts making noise at State, then it makes sense to complain, but until then...

A real down on their luck case.. Fancy high school, obviously great tax base, solid AA type enrollment and they simply did a poor job of building a strong program!! Then award them with moving down where they're an instant favorite and have no similarities to their competition..

[MNHockeyFan]

Seems like every year, there will be handful of schools that will be targeted as sandbagging in A hockey.

So true, and as you say the constant and predictable whining when Class A schools get to be "too good" does get old. But MAML is a "handful of schools" all by themselves, and unlike some city co-ops they are located in growing, exurban areas. IF they should start winning year after year and dominate their section I think it does raise the question, what do you do to even the playing field?

[MrBoDangles]

So by the same token, we should bump down St. Franny, CI, Andover, and anyone who may have struggled in the past. Its called work ethic!!! Going to the tourney is a privelege, making it isn't a right and should not be expected!

[Jeffy95]

Seems like every year, there will be handful of schools that will be targeted as sandbagging in A hockey.

So true, and as you say the constant and predictable whining when Class A schools get to be "too good" does get old. But MAML is a "handful of schools" all by themselves, and unlike some city co-ops they are located in growing, exurban areas. IF they should start winning year after year and dominate their section I think it does raise the question, what do you do to even the playing field?

If you've read this board the last few years you would both know that what you say is absolutely not true. There are not "a handful" every year. It's been the same three consistently for years. I've been reading this board since 2010 and there has never once been a complaint about a team being in Class A because they were, "too good."

EGF won BACK TO BACK TITLES. ZERO complaints on this board about them, not one. Why? Because every one of those kids was from EGF and they had a special group come through. That's exactly what Class A is supposed to be. Everyone cheered for them and tipped their hat at what a great run they had.

There have been three teams complained about in the last six years. STA, because they are a Metro Private. Hermantown, because they are in a Metro area and get a HUGE amount of the top players from the surrounding Associations and School Districts. And Breck, again because they are a Metro Private.

[MNHockeyFan]

There have been three teams complained about in the last six years. STA, because they are a Metro Private. Hermantown, because they are in a Metro area and get a HUGE amount of the top players from the surrounding Associations and School Districts. And Breck, again because they are a Metro Private.

But all three were Class A by virtue of their enrollment. And nobody would have complained if they weren't good.

[4on5again]

Let them go for a title with an *, but don't pretend they are a small struggling community. Have you been to Monti? Seen their HS? Seen the growth?

Enrollment...losing players...cycles of talent... What program doesn't have them? They need to man up for their programs sake, and quit playing the victim. Hasn't anyone watched a movie like Hoosiers, Miracle, or The Bad News Bears?

Ps. If you have a Buffalo Wild Wings, you probably are AA program.

[Jeffy95]

There have been three teams complained about in the last six years. STA, because they are a Metro Private. Hermantown, because they are in a Metro area and get a HUGE amount of the top players from the surrounding Associations and School Districts. And Breck, again because they are a Metro Private.

But all three were Class A by virtue of their enrollment. And nobody would have complained if they weren't good.

Yes, and those schools have the option to admit that they have special advantages that 99% of the other Class A schools don't have and move up to AA. STA did just that, so we're down to Hermantown and Breck.

Class A Enrollment means absolutely nothing unless every kid in your program is from your School District. If you pull in top players from all around a Metro area, what does your enrollment matter? It's irrelevant.

[Syd Barrett]

If you have a Buffalo Wild Wings, you probably are AA program.

Maybe the MSHSL should make that the criteria for being in AA

[GoldenBear]

If you have more bars that sell pull tabs than grades in your school your class A GB.

[4on5again]

I could see a Jeff Foxworthy act based on the criteria for A vs. AA.

"If your coach also drives the team bus...you might be..."

*only chuckling at my own roots here BTW.

[dueling21]

There have been three teams complained about in the last six years. STA, because they are a Metro Private. Hermantown, because they are in a Metro area and get a HUGE amount of the top players from the surrounding Associations and School Districts. And Breck, again because they are a Metro Private.

But all three were Class A by virtue of their enrollment. And nobody would have complained if they weren't good.

Yes, and those schools have the option to admit that they have special advantages that 99% of the other Class A schools don't have and move up to AA. STA did just that, so we're down to Hermantown and Breck.

Class A Enrollment means absolutely nothing unless every kid in your program is from your School District. If you pull in top players from all around a Metro area, what does your enrollment matter? It's irrelevant.

So by that logic, we should next be clamoring for all privates (St. Paul Academy, Rochester Lourdes, Providence Academy, Blake, Breck, Minnehaha Academy, Totino-Grace, Legacy Christian, St. Cloud Cathedral), all co-ops with large numbers of schools and /or enrollments (LSHSPTCUC, Minneapolis, Morris-Benson, New Ulm, Windom, St. Paul Johnson, Moose Lake, MAML, Prairie Centre, River Lakes, Wadena-Deer Creek, Northern Lakes, North Shore, etc.), and all traditionally strong programs that draw in kids (Warroad, East Grand Forks, Thief River Falls, Hibbing, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, Mankato West, etc.).

There ain't a whole lot left to form a Class A field...

[Jeffy95]

But all three were Class A by virtue of their enrollment. And nobody would have complained if they weren't good.

Yes, and those schools have the option to admit that they have special advantages that 99% of the other Class A schools don't have and move up to AA. STA did just that, so we're down to Hermantown and Breck.

Class A Enrollment means absolutely nothing unless every kid in your program is from your School District. If you pull in top players from all around a Metro area, what does your enrollment matter? It's irrelevant.

So by that logic, we should next be clamoring for all privates (St. Paul Academy, Rochester Lourdes, Providence Academy, Blake, Breck, Minnehaha Academy, Totino-Grace, Legacy Christian, St. Cloud Cathedral), all co-ops with large numbers of schools and /or enrollments (LSHSPTCUC, Minneapolis, Morris-Benson, New Ulm, Windom, St. Paul Johnson, Moose Lake, MAML, Prairie Centre, River Lakes, Wadena-Deer Creek, Northern Lakes, North Shore, etc.), and all traditionally strong programs that draw in kids (Warroad, East Grand Forks, Thief River Falls, Hibbing, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, Mankato West, etc.).

There ain't a whole lot left to form a Class A field...

No, that's not even close to what I said. I said if you pull in TOP players from a METRO area. Hermantown and Breck are the only two on your list that fit that LOGIC. Those are also the two that I mentioned. I realize that some of those other privates are in the Twin Cities Metro, but they are hardly destination schools for hockey players.

I said nothing about co-ops. Teams co-op to survive, not to dominate a sport.

[Thegoldenjet]

This thread has gotten pretty interesting. As a mostly neutral observer with my own corner of the world perspective and opinions I agree and disagree with points among any given post. Certainly I can understand almost every perspective which forms the opinions, the ones I agree with and the ones I don't. Facetiously, this is where I would make a bad joke and say I think we should develop an electoral high school, argue a lot more, vote, and then keep arguing, but I think we'd all much rather argue about high school hockey than politics after the last 6 months so I'll keep that one in my pocket. That said, if we had to vote I'd probably write elliot70 in if he weren't running, and if he asked my opinion I would say, I think MAML may be hedging their bet to be the top of the bottom half rather than the bottom of the top half. In the whole scheme of things I don't think the team or the individuals truly gain from this other than those who lose grip on the fact that they're still smack in the middle despite some pretty serious accolade differentiation, accolades which mean everything, and nothing. . The middle is tough, rock over here, hard place over there.

[HShockeywatcher]

A real down on their luck case.. Fancy high school, obviously great tax base, solid AA type enrollment and they simply did a poor job of building a strong program!! Then award them with moving down where they're an instant favorite and have no similarities to their competition..

Their enrollment alone puts them in Class A though; that's the point.

I'm not downplaying anything. I'm merely asking questions, which you still haven't answered. I have no idea how many players are in the entire associations of any programs in the state, let alone the one in question...

There have been three teams complained about in the last six years. STA, because they are a Metro Private. Hermantown, because they are in a Metro area and get a HUGE amount of the top players from the surrounding Associations and School Districts. And Breck, again because they are a Metro Private.

But all three were Class A by virtue of their enrollment. And nobody would have complained if they weren't good.

ding ding ding, we have a winner. No one cared when STA won 10 games in 3 seasons, but when they did things that public school programs are completely capable of doing, they are suddenly "too good for Class A." I think AA is the right place for STA and wish they would've moved up sooner, but the hypocrisy from so many is astonishing. When I've talked to people from other states people are amazed whenn I've mentioned teams changing classes; I've mentioned many examples of teams nationwide who are the best team in their state, and sometimes the nation, who aren't even in their state's top class. I've also brought up numerous ways of re-figuring classification that achieves private haters goals and more. Oh well...