Class A Rankings 1-24-2016

BigTen · Post by **BigTen** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:04 pm

[quote="howardst"]Oh and green did that through 21 games[/quote

Does that include the games before Christmas?

Are you affiliated with Howard Stern in any way?

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:51 pm

howardst wrote:So by the same logic greenway should be listed as a top tier. 35 goals against with 120 goals for and proved their worth allowing Hermantown only 2 goals and no other class A (and hardly any AA did that- like one of only 4 teams to do it) and could have just as easily tied it as not in the last minute. By your logic there is no way you can not list them there as Apollo has not played a team any better than Hermantown and they have not scored like greenway. Then take Hibbing. 1 loss and it was to a team that is better than any Apollo has played so then the elite conversation is 5 teams? Nope. Elite is just that. Elite. In fact I might question breck being elite after losses to rosemount and st Michael. Hibbings resume is better.

You're a treat!

Maybe YOU need to take a look outside of 7A.

Apollo has given up 3 goals in the third period. That's 3 -- as in all year.

They've given up 1 goal in 70+ penalty kills. That's 1 -- as in all year. Over a 98% kill rate.

Elite is just that. Elite. Or at least I'd call Apollo's team D elite. Greenway, not as much, or at least they're not leading the ENTIRE state in fewest goals allowed.

Hibbing might be in that elite category too. I've said so before. However, they and Greenway and every other team in 7A still have to get by Hermantown. Only one team from 7A gets to play at the X, no matter how many you think are deserving.

howardst · Post by **howardst** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:29 pm

Well pretty simple. Elite is just that. Top of the pile. Yes Apollo is very good but fact is Hibbing has taken care of business and as stated earlier the score does not matter as it is about winning and finding a way to get it done. With that said Hibbing has done it better than Apollo. With that said elite is the top 2. Yes apollo has a impressive season and will be a voice in the big picture. As far as looking outside of 7a , I do and what I see are the same 7 other teams that really have a chance to have a voice in the tourn and that adds up to really one in each sectionals no other section will have the battle that 7 will this year. How many sections would Hibbing be favored in? How many sections would want to have to go thru Hibbing r greenway for that matter. Sure every year there is a section that is tougher to get out of and this year that section is 7. That is my point. No slam on Apollo as trust me tey are a top 3-4 team in the state. No question

howardst · Post by **howardst** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:32 pm

I love the banter. Proves class A is viable and exciting! Thanks for voicing your opinions as none are the acts but just that. An opinion. Love it!

stromboli · Post by **stromboli** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:42 pm

Just wait until we get closer to March and have an A vs AA top ten conversation. I'll be counting on you my friend to liven things up.

Peace.

howardst · Post by **howardst** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:57 pm

Yes my friend I will be here. I can tell you this Sec 7 A will be represented in that conversation. Lol. Jk. I do respect all your opinions and hope it continues but when Hibbing takes out Apollo Friday don't expect me to be on here telling you told you so as I still believe we have 2 elite teams herm n breck. 2 excellent teams in Hibbing n Apollo and 5-6 others that are real threats and yes sec 7 is represented in every category. Lol.

CornerBar · Post by **CornerBar** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:16 pm

stromboli wrote:
howardst wrote:So by the same logic greenway should be listed as a top tier. 35 goals against with 120 goals for and proved their worth allowing Hermantown only 2 goals and no other class A (and hardly any AA did that- like one of only 4 teams to do it) and could have just as easily tied it as not in the last minute. By your logic there is no way you can not list them there as Apollo has not played a team any better than Hermantown and they have not scored like greenway. Then take Hibbing. 1 loss and it was to a team that is better than any Apollo has played so then the elite conversation is 5 teams? Nope. Elite is just that. Elite. In fact I might question breck being elite after losses to rosemount and st Michael. Hibbings resume is better.
You're a treat!

Maybe YOU need to take a look outside of 7A.

Apollo has given up 3 goals in the third period. That's 3 -- as in all year.

They've given up 1 goal in 70+ penalty kills. That's 1 -- as in all year. Over a 98% kill rate.

Elite is just that. Elite. Or at least I'd call Apollo's team D elite. Greenway, not as much, or at least they're not leading the ENTIRE state in fewest goals allowed.

Hibbing might be in that elite category too. I've said so before. However, they and Greenway and every other team in 7A still have to get by Hermantown. Only one team from 7A gets to play at the X, no matter how many you think are deserving.

Howardst is very narrow minded. Clearly he hasn't looked at Apollos schedule because they've played Bemidji, who is better than Hibbings toughest game so far. And they played Bemidji closer than Hermantown did. No disrespect to Hibbing but I hope Apollo blows them out of the water to get Howard to realize that section 7 isn't as great as he thinks.

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:41 pm

CornerBar wrote:
stromboli wrote:
howardst wrote:So by the same logic greenway should be listed as a top tier. 35 goals against with 120 goals for and proved their worth allowing Hermantown only 2 goals and no other class A (and hardly any AA did that- like one of only 4 teams to do it) and could have just as easily tied it as not in the last minute. By your logic there is no way you can not list them there as Apollo has not played a team any better than Hermantown and they have not scored like greenway. Then take Hibbing. 1 loss and it was to a team that is better than any Apollo has played so then the elite conversation is 5 teams? Nope. Elite is just that. Elite. In fact I might question breck being elite after losses to rosemount and st Michael. Hibbings resume is better.
You're a treat!

Maybe YOU need to take a look outside of 7A.

Apollo has given up 3 goals in the third period. That's 3 -- as in all year.

They've given up 1 goal in 70+ penalty kills. That's 1 -- as in all year. Over a 98% kill rate.

Elite is just that. Elite. Or at least I'd call Apollo's team D elite. Greenway, not as much, or at least they're not leading the ENTIRE state in fewest goals allowed.

Hibbing might be in that elite category too. I've said so before. However, they and Greenway and every other team in 7A still have to get by Hermantown. Only one team from 7A gets to play at the X, no matter how many you think are deserving.
Howardst is very narrow minded. Clearly he hasn't looked at Apollos schedule because they've played Bemidji, who is better than Hibbings toughest game so far. And they played Bemidji closer than Hermantown did. No disrespect to Hibbing but I hope Apollo blows them out of the water to get Howard to realize that section 7 isn't as great as he thinks.

Apollo does deserve credit for playing Bemidji and Breck so tough, but overall Hibbing's schedule has been tougher.

Apollo's quality wins: #16 Sartell twice, #11 Cathedral, and Brainerd.

Hibbing's quality wins: #20 Denfeld, #17 Little Falls, #15 Warroad, #10 EGF, #9 Greenway, #7 TRF, Brainerd, and Cloquet.

And PageStat has Hibbing with the #53 schedule, while Apollo is at #70.

I'm not saying this means anything as far as Friday's game is concerned, but it is clear that Hibbing has played a tougher schedule and has more quality wins.

Post by **karl(east)** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:14 pm

pekyman wrote:I've been on this forum for 6 years or so and I have never seen the HSHW's rankings with more views and comments than Karl's as far as I can remember.
Even Karl put his 2 cents in which was much appreciated. No doubt Class A sections and State are going to be very interesting.

It is kind of cool to see the attention on Class A. Obviously, AA is my main focus since my alma mater is there, and that's where a lot of the top-end talent and big names are. But I certainly have a soft spot for Class A, especially when it's fairly wide open and has teams from all corners of the state contending, at least on some level. And it's easier for extremely talented individual players to stand out in A, which can make it more entertaining than some of the AA trap-fests.

A also has the benefit of being a bit cleaner than AA, though there's (obviously) room for argument. Reasonable minds could put the 3-7 teams in AA in just about any order and come up with justifiable reasons, while it's a little more clear-cut in A, which makes it easy for you all to argue about it--leading to more comments and views. Especially when there are Rangers involved.

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:08 pm

stromboli wrote:PR,

I realize you're not making a case for them to be a top-ten team, and I agree with much of what you've said.

I was originally responding to Howard asking who wants to play Virginia. I'd say almost half the state would based on where they're ranked as of the last PageStat rankings at #70 (out of 151).

Again, not making a case for a higher ranking. I am trying to back up howardst here and that original statement. You do not play against the rankings. The rankings aren't going to reflect the difference between early December and now. December games versus Eveleth and I Fallls that you pointed out as ties were wide margin wins the second time around, a 4-1 loss to Greenway flipped into an overtime game the second time around and they took a top 5 team down to the final seconds in a game they never trailed until those final seconds. They have proven on paper that they are not the same team that fumbled around the first 3 weeks or so of the season. I get the sense (and I know I'm not alone here) that its only a matter of time before some of those close games go Virginia's way... and that is why you don't want to play them right now or draw them in the quarterfinals in section play. howardst's point is valid!

stromboli wrote:I get that they've lost some close games. That begs a few questions though. Do you believe they've overachieved, played to their ability, or underachieved to date? If they've overachieved, they've come up short despite that and haven't found a way to win against higher ranked teams. If they've underachieved, then they've found a way to lose games they should have won, and are ranked right where they should be until they find a way to win close games.

I would say they underachieved at the beginning of the season and are now playing closer to their potential. This is a VERY young team. Their top skaters are sophomores. With every game they get under their belt, they gain experience. The early season jitters are gone, and the learning curve for both the players and the coaching staff may have finally caught up. Those early results skew where they really are now. Don't get me wrong, those games count and thus they deserve the ranking and seed they are going to get. The point, again, is that they are not the walkover 2-6-2 team that started the season. They are someone from a coaches point of view that you would rather not play now because of how they have played since Christmas and who they have played against.

stromboli wrote:They've been pretty predictable based on the last PageStat rankings.

They've won and/or tied against:

#58 Little Falls (best win to date) AGREED
#82 Hutchinson
#96 I Falls (wind and a tie) WON THE MORE RECENT GAME HANDILY
#103 Willmar
#114 Eveleth (win and a tie) WON THE MORE RECENT GAME HANDILY
#119 Sauk Rapids
#123 Northern Lakes

That's really what I meant earlier by not being impressed. Not that they don't play any ranked teams. Their wins have come, with one exception, against teams ranked in the bottom half of the state. YES, THEY TOOK CARE OF BUSINESS AS THEY SHOULD HAVE AGAINST THOSE TEAMS.

Their losses are as follows:

#14 Grand Rapids ONLY REAL BAD LOSS
#17 Hibbing LAST MINUTE LOSS
#30 Greenway (twice) OVERTIME THE 2nd LOSS
#35 Brainerd CLOSE GAME (5-3)
#50 Cloquet EARLY SEASON
#53 Eagan OVERTIME
#55 Warroad EARLY SEASON LAST MINUTE LOSS
#65 Denfeld EARLY SEASON

A statistical ranking of about #70 seems right on the money based on who they've beaten and who they've lost to so far.

I would not argue with that. It is accurate for this point in time. If I were making an argument for a better ranking, I would say we were talking class A hockey, and most of the games for the bulk of these teams are against class A teams, so I would be more apt to use the #22 ranking in class A and compare that with the other A teams. 59 of those teams ranked ahead of Virginia are AA teams. Nobody here has to go through Benilde or Eden Prairie to make it to St. Paul. But that's not really related to the point I'm trying to make.

stromboli wrote:I don't place stock in what a team's record would have been with a few more goals in a few games. That's like saying Apollo would be undefeated if only they'd scored 3 more goals. It's a fact, but it's also a fact that it didn't happen.

I don't disagree. But again, you seem to be trying to prove a ranking or standings argument. You can toss all the statistics around you want, but it does not change the fact that you need to bring your "A" game against Virginia or they will bite you. Greenway and Hibbing did not have bad outings against them and they barely survived. Had they shown up with the mentality they were playing the 70th ranked team in the state as you suggest, they would have both lost. If Apollo rolls into town this weekend with that mentality, they might go back home with an 0-2 weekend. (I am not going to use Hermantown in this example, because they are in 7A and I'm sure those Hibbing and Greenway results got Plante's attention.)

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:50 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:Virginia is a good example of how important it is to a) look at more than one game schedule and b) that the result of the game does ultimately matter.

Are they just as good as Eveleth or International Falls? Are they 1 goal worse than Hibbing, Eagan, Warroad and Greenway? Or maybe they're way worse than Denfeld and Greenway because they lost to them by 3? Heck, they're clearly better than Hibbing because they scored 2 goals on Grand Rapids, right?Or maybe it's the culmination of all of these things?

Just for the record, nobody ever said Virginia deserved to be ranked any higher... Their #22 pagestat rating in class A is about where they belong until they start winning some of those close games. The discussion was revolving around whether or not they are a tough team to play right now.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Something that is virtually always brought up in discussions of wins/losses, but seems to be absent in the thoughts of "7A supporters," is that ultimately the goal is to win. It doesn't matter if you win by a lot or a little, a win's a win. Teams do different things against different opponents, try new things against lesser opponents, etc, etc. We've all been at games where one team dominated on the ice but didn't win by a lot (or even ended up losing) or vice versa. Which is also why, over the course of a season, you can't look at just a couple results and say "look, they played this one good team close in this one game so they are definitely just as good as them or slightly worse."
This is a huge factor in ranking that so many seem to want to ignore here.

Says you... I don't agree with that philosophy at all. Rankings to me mean if you were to put the teams on the ice RIGHT NOW, #1 should be expected to win out. #2 should be expected to be able to beat everyone except #1, #3 should only lose to #1 & #2... and so forth. The factors you are using are more geared for determining standings based on what has already happened, not rankings. Rankings should be more of a future predictor than solely a reward for past accomplishments. To me rankings require more knowledge than just final scores. Knowing how or why things happen and trying to gain some foresight as to what might happen next are part of it. None of them will ever be 100% correct (if they were, we would no longer need to play the games), but I think whats going on now definitely trumps what happens in late November.

I will use this as an example:

A few years back, Hibbing had lost to Cloquet in running time. Cloquet ended up losing to Grand Rapids in the 7AA finals that year.

Virginia had beaten Grand Rapids and had a 20 win season that included a handful of "quality" wins, while Grand Rapids went on to lose in the AA state championship game. Hibbing was 12-12, but had quite a few close losses to some very good teams. They had lost to Grand Rapids twice (once in running time) and lost to a couple other teams Virginia had snuck past.

Hibbing came around and did beat Virginia 5-4 in overtime in their final meeting of the season. Hibbing then beat Virginia by 3 in the section semi finals and lost to Hermantown by one goal in the finals. Hermantown went on to take 3rd at state.

With a 12-12 record, Hibbing was ranked right along side Virginia in the top 15 all year by LPH and was ranked one spot lower (#13) than Virginia(#12), who was 20-5 in the pagestat rankings. Hibbing had also won its games against the likes of Two Harbors and Proctor as expected, but lost a bunch of one goal games to teams like Duluth Marshall, Duluth East, Warroad, etc., and started to win some of those games at the end of the season, and almost managed to get a section title.

Most people on this board at the time were not that surprised by Hibbing's run, and in fact many predicted it and expected it because for the most part they had been tough to beat the second half of the season. All those close losses MATTERED and it was reflected in the rankings and even the section seeding.

HShockeywatcher wrote:It's also worth noting for those who bring up SOS that it can be a deceiving metric. Luverne's schedule (88, 15.528) is only slightly behind Virginia's (73, 16.233). When you actually look at the schedule's, though, Luverne plays all of 4 noteworthy opponents while Virginia plays at least double that, if not more.

As far as the Luverne/Virginia SOS comparison... Hal is catching on. Luverne is at #105 (14.453) in the latest pagestat SOS, a full 30 teams behind Virginia. They aren't that close. Kittson Central and Redwood Valley are as close to Luverne as Luverne is to Virginia. Virginia is actually 24th among class A teams in SOS, just 3 spots behind #21 Apollo. Luverne is 42nd.

And also, Virginia's SOS number will improve as they have a pretty strong back end with the likes of Hermantown, Cathedral, Apollo, St. Paul Johnson, and Hibbing as opponents in 5 of their last 7 games. Luverne's will continue to drop with 4 of their last 5 games being against some of the weakest teams in the state. Their numbers will not be remotely comparable by the time the season is done.

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:52 pm

PAGESTAT Strength of Schedule, Class A Only:

Code: Select all

1	HERMANTOWN	7A	18.732
2	BRECK	2A	18.668
3	EAST GRAND FORKS	8A	18.106
4	THIEF RIVER FALLS	8A	17.877
5	DELANO	2A	17.654
6	MAHTOMEDI	4A	17.594
7	BLAKE	2A	17.415
8	WARROAD	8A	17.127
9	HIBBING	7A	17.044
10	NEW PRAGUE	1A	17.013
11	ST CLOUD CATHEDRAL	6A	16.956
12	TOTINO GRACE	4A	16.904
13	ORONO	2A	16.863
14	DULUTH DENFELD	7A	16.85
15	ST PAUL ACADEMY	4A	16.704
16	BLOOM KENNEDY	2A	16.635
17	MOUND WESTONKA	2A	16.634
18	ROCHESTER LOURDES	1A	16.589
19	ST LOUIS PARK	2A	16.483
20	ALEXANDRIA	6A	16.403
21	ST CLOUD APOLLO	6A	16.326
22	WACONIA	2A	16.164
23	SPRING LAKE PARK	5A	16.16
24	VIRGINIA	7A	16.066
25	CROOKSTON	8A	15.839
26	S ST PAUL	4A	15.63
27	SARTELL	6A	15.545
28	MINNEAPOLIS	2A	15.538
29	HUTCHINSON	3A	15.531
30	FERGUS FALLS	6A	15.526
31	WILLMAR	3A	15.384
32	GREENWAY	7A	15.364
33	MANKATO WEST	1A	15.042
34	PROVIDENCE ACADEMY	5A	14.993
35	LITCHFIELD	3A	14.977
36	CHISAGO LAKES	5A	14.927
37	INTERNATIONAL FALLS	7A	14.922
38	ST PAUL JOHNSON	4A	14.714
39	MINNEHAHA ACADEMY	4A	14.505
40	HENRY SIBLEY	4A	14.476
41	LITTLE FALLS	6A	14.472
42	LUVERNE	3A	14.453
43	SAUK RAPIDS	6A	14.447
44	PRINCETON	5A	14.227
45	EVELETH GILBERT	7A	14.218
46	DETROIT LAKES	8A	14.062
47	NORTHFIELD	1A	13.711
48	NORTH SHORE	7A	13.627
49	SIMLEY	4A	13.561
50	RED WING	1A	13.255
51	PROCTOR	5A	13.236
52	ALBERT LEA	1A	13.001
53	NORTH BRANCH	5A	12.997
54	CHASKA	2A	12.928
55	NEW ULM	3A	12.829
56	PARK RAPIDS	8A	12.732
57	MANKATO EAST	1A	12.681
58	FARIBAULT	1A	12.578
59	REDWOOD VALLEY	3A	11.995
60	KITTSON CENTRAL	8A	11.804
61	LEGACY CHRISTIAN	5A	11.794
62	LAKE OF THE WOODS	8A	11.738
63	LA CRESCENT	1A	11.616
64	NORTHERN LAKES	6A	11.506
65	LESUEUR	1A	11.39
66	MARSHALL	3A	11.288
67	ST PAUL COMO PARK	4A	11.225
68	AUSTIN	1A	11.074
69	WINONA	1A	10.707
70	MOOSE LAKE	5A	10.686
71	PINE CITY	5A	10.628
72	MORA	5A	10.444
73	WADENA	6A	10.368
74	ST PAUL HIGHLAND PARK	4A	10.327
75	PRAIRIE CENTRE	6A	9.96
76	ELY	7A	9.909
77	RED LAKE FALLS	8A	9.749
78	BAGLEY	8A	9.621
79	WASECA	1A	9.014
80	WINDOM	3A	8.339
81	FAIRMONT	3A	8.155
82	BRECKENRIDGE	6A	7.957
83	WORTHINGTON	3A	6.646
84	MORRIS/BENSON	3A	6.302

green4 · Post by **green4** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:22 pm

howardst wrote: Then take Hibbing. 1 loss and it was to a team that is better than any Apollo has played.

Hibbing lost to Rapids.
Rapids tied Bemidji
Bemidji played Apollo. Pretty close game, 2-1 in favor of the lumberjacks.

So, not only is your statement false, because Bemidji is a good team, but to think Apollo is not a contender is humorous. You keep preaching how impressed you are that Greenway kept Hermantown to 2 goals. Well, Apollo did that to Bemidji, which is something Hermantown coudn't do.

While I have your attention I would just like to say you make it pretty tough to root for any 7A team. The good news is you don't actually like Hibbing, so I can still cheer for them.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:58 am

PuckRanger wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:Virginia is a good example of how important it is to a) look at more than one game schedule and b) that the result of the game does ultimately matter.

Are they just as good as Eveleth or International Falls? Are they 1 goal worse than Hibbing, Eagan, Warroad and Greenway? Or maybe they're way worse than Denfeld and Greenway because they lost to them by 3? Heck, they're clearly better than Hibbing because they scored 2 goals on Grand Rapids, right?Or maybe it's the culmination of all of these things?
Just for the record, nobody ever said Virginia deserved to be ranked any higher... Their #22 pagestat rating in class A is about where they belong until they start winning some of those close games. The discussion was revolving around whether or not they are a tough team to play right now.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Something that is virtually always brought up in discussions of wins/losses, but seems to be absent in the thoughts of "7A supporters," is that ultimately the goal is to win. It doesn't matter if you win by a lot or a little, a win's a win. Teams do different things against different opponents, try new things against lesser opponents, etc, etc. We've all been at games where one team dominated on the ice but didn't win by a lot (or even ended up losing) or vice versa. Which is also why, over the course of a season, you can't look at just a couple results and say "look, they played this one good team close in this one game so they are definitely just as good as them or slightly worse."
This is a huge factor in ranking that so many seem to want to ignore here.
Says you... I don't agree with that philosophy at all. Rankings to me mean if you were to put the teams on the ice RIGHT NOW, #1 should be expected to win out. #2 should be expected to be able to beat everyone except #1, #3 should only lose to #1 & #2... and so forth. The factors you are using are more geared for determining standings based on what has already happened, not rankings. Rankings should be more of a future predictor than solely a reward for past accomplishments. To me rankings require more knowledge than just final scores. Knowing how or why things happen and trying to gain some foresight as to what might happen next are part of it. None of them will ever be 100% correct (if they were, we would no longer need to play the games), but I think whats going on now definitely trumps what happens in late November.

I will use this as an example:

A few years back, Hibbing had lost to Cloquet in running time. Cloquet ended up losing to Grand Rapids in the 7AA finals that year.

Virginia had beaten Grand Rapids and had a 20 win season that included a handful of "quality" wins, while Grand Rapids went on to lose in the AA state championship game. Hibbing was 12-12, but had quite a few close losses to some very good teams. They had lost to Grand Rapids twice (once in running time) and lost to a couple other teams Virginia had snuck past.

Hibbing came around and did beat Virginia 5-4 in overtime in their final meeting of the season. Hibbing then beat Virginia by 3 in the section semi finals and lost to Hermantown by one goal in the finals. Hermantown went on to take 3rd at state.

With a 12-12 record, Hibbing was ranked right along side Virginia in the top 15 all year by LPH and was ranked one spot lower (#13) than Virginia(#12), who was 20-5 in the pagestat rankings. Hibbing had also won its games against the likes of Two Harbors and Proctor as expected, but lost a bunch of one goal games to teams like Duluth Marshall, Duluth East, Warroad, etc., and started to win some of those games at the end of the season, and almost managed to get a section title.

Most people on this board at the time were not that surprised by Hibbing's run, and in fact many predicted it and expected it because for the most part they had been tough to beat the second half of the season. All those close losses MATTERED and it was reflected in the rankings and even the section seeding.

HShockeywatcher wrote:It's also worth noting for those who bring up SOS that it can be a deceiving metric. Luverne's schedule (88, 15.528) is only slightly behind Virginia's (73, 16.233). When you actually look at the schedule's, though, Luverne plays all of 4 noteworthy opponents while Virginia plays at least double that, if not more.
As far as the Luverne/Virginia SOS comparison... Hal is catching on. Luverne is at #105 (14.453) in the latest pagestat SOS, a full 30 teams behind Virginia. They aren't that close. Kittson Central and Redwood Valley are as close to Luverne as Luverne is to Virginia. Virginia is actually 24th among class A teams in SOS, just 3 spots behind #21 Apollo. Luverne is 42nd.

And also, Virginia's SOS number will improve as they have a pretty strong back end with the likes of Hermantown, Cathedral, Apollo, St. Paul Johnson, and Hibbing as opponents in 5 of their last 7 games. Luverne's will continue to drop with 4 of their last 5 games being against some of the weakest teams in the state. Their numbers will not be remotely comparable by the time the season is done.

It seems like you just quoted me and responded to what you want me to have said, or something along those lines. I'm agreeing that Virginia is better than their record shows, for many of the reasons you are bringing up, and using their schedule as a big example of how you can't just take one game to make some grand statement about a team, as so many are trying to do.

What "philosophy" do you not agree with at all?

I also brought up how the point is to win the game and unless you know exactly what happened in literally every game, you often can't draw a lot of conclusions. You go based on the body of work, not just one game. Team A lost to Team C "better" than Team B lost to Team C; can you make a big statement about the relative quality of Teams A and B? Often not. Sometimes it's nothing more than "both A and B lost to C."

I was using Virginia and Luverne as examples of how using SOS can be deceiving. I don't think anyone would argue that Virginia's schedule was significantly more difficult than Luverne's at the time the numbers were taken but because of the way averages work, they were so close.

rainier · Post by **rainier** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:49 pm

Hub is showing Hermantown with a 2-1 lead over Virginia after 2. Shots 29-10 Herm.

There's a period to go, but Virginia once again hanging tough with one of thee top 3 in 7A.

ironranger2 · Post by **ironranger2** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:38 pm

4-1 final for Hermantown, but it wasn't that close. It would have been double digits if it weren't for Westerholm keeping them in it. That kid is something.

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:40 pm

rainier wrote:Hub is showing Hermantown with a 2-1 lead over Virginia after 2. Shots 29-10 Herm.

There's a period to go, but Virginia once again hanging tough with one of thee top 3 in 7A.

They hung tough until the last 9 minutes or so... Hermantown put the screws down after Virginia had a couple good chances to tie it. They scored with 8:06 left on a very nice passing play that finally was able to beat Westerholm across the crease. After that, Virginia did not have a sniff in the offensive zone and Westerholm was blitzed for about 20 shots. Another one finally got past him on a breakaway after one of the few times Virginia got out of its own end. Just too much depth, fire power, and speed for Virginia to play its defensive opportunistic game and get away with it that long.

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:45 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:It seems like you just quoted me and responded to what you want me to have said, or something along those lines. I'm agreeing that Virginia is better than their record shows, for many of the reasons you are bringing up, and using their schedule as a big example of how you can't just take one game to make some grand statement about a team, as so many are trying to do.

What "philosophy" do you not agree with at all?

I also brought up how the point is to win the game and unless you know exactly what happened in literally every game, you often can't draw a lot of conclusions. You go based on the body of work, not just one game. Team A lost to Team C "better" than Team B lost to Team C; can you make a big statement about the relative quality of Teams A and B? Often not. Sometimes it's nothing more than "both A and B lost to C."

I was using Virginia and Luverne as examples of how using SOS can be deceiving. I don't think anyone would argue that Virginia's schedule was significantly more difficult than Luverne's at the time the numbers were taken but because of the way averages work, they were so close.

I really wasn't trying to argue with you... merely adding to what you said... with the exception of your ranking philosophy. But we have had that discussion several times over the years, so no need to beat that dead horse anymore.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:18 am

PuckRanger wrote:I really wasn't trying to argue with you... merely adding to what you said... with the exception of your ranking philosophy. But we have had that discussion several times over the years, so no need to beat that dead horse anymore.

That's fair, but I'm curious what specifically it is that you disagree with. The whole paragraph was saying that sometimes a win in just that and you can't read more into it or a loss is just a loss, especially after 20 games of the season. Along with the point from the previous paragraph that says to use more than just one game to assess a team.
There are multiple people here that are simply saying A beat C by more goals than B beat C so A needs to be higher than B. I'm saying it's not that simple when you have other things go by by.

You disagree with that?

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:52 am

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

How much has a coaching change potentially contributed to Luverne's results this year? Returning the top 2 scorers, and 4 of the top 6, it would've been hard to predict they'd have 5 losses at this point.

Prowlerhockey · Post by **Prowlerhockey** » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:23 am

Is there any way TRF can get less then #1 seed in sections even if they lose to EGF in there second meeting?(Assuming that TRF beats crookston and red lake falls and EGF beats warroad.)

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:45 am

Prowlerhockey wrote:Is there any way TRF can get less then #1 seed in sections even if they lose to EGF in there second meeting?(Assuming that TRF beats crookston and red lake falls and EGF beats warroad.)

TRF is the 1 seed.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:50 am

I just want to make sure I understand what I've been told this week. Since Mahtomedi beat Cathedral and Hibbing lost to Apollo I need to make Mahtomedi's ranking go up and Hibbing's go down, right?

Also, what are people's thoughts on SPA? Do the 7A crowd think they should be at #4 since they lost to Breck by the same score as Apollo, of course giving the nod to Apollo who beat Hibbing? Or should we take a look at the rest of their schedule and notice that their only noteworthy games since Christmas (since that's the timeframe howardst would have us use) are a Eau Claire Memorial win and one goal Blake and Breck losses?

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:33 am

How does everything think Delano should stack up with the other teams like Hibbing, SPA and Mahtomedi? and why?
They still have 2 Class A losses and only to Hermantown and Breck.

Nuts&Bolts · Post by **Nuts&Bolts** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:09 am

I think you do a good job Watcher with the rankings and spend the time researching and justifying your opinions like Karl. So 7A maybe isn't all that great and if Hermantown is playing AA then 7AA and 7A are both decent but not great sections this year. What do the Hibbing faithful claim as signature wins EGF and Greenway? Not exactly a great schedule. At the end of the day there are 3 teams that can win the A title this year IMO: in order Hermantown, Breck, or Mahtomedi. Apollo is the dark horse and would be fun if they can pull an upset in March. Look forward to tomorrow.

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