Does MSHSL restrict streaming of section games?

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:44 am

Do they limit sites like PSB or even the Cube?

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:44 am

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:58 am

So no way at all to see/hear games?

This ain't the NFL for god sakes

Duluthguy · Post by **Duluthguy** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:47 am

The sections are able to sell the rights to the broadcasts. This has happened here in Duluth for years, in that a local TV station has purchased the rights to broadcast the 7AA and 7A finals. So a website as you describe could purchase the broadcast rights and sell advertising to recover the costs and potentially make some money. In that sense these sites aren't limited at all by the section, only by their ability to generate enough income to cover the costs.

Because the section games generate revenue for the section committee, they're reluctant to potentially hinder ticket sales by giving away the broadcast/streaming rights.

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:34 am

Duluthguy wrote:The sections are able to sell the rights to the broadcasts. This has happened here in Duluth for years, in that a local TV station has purchased the rights to broadcast the 7AA and 7A finals. So a website as you describe could purchase the broadcast rights and sell advertising to recover the costs and potentially make some money. In that sense these sites aren't limited at all by the section, only by their ability to generate enough income to cover the costs.

Because the section games generate revenue for the section committee, they're reluctant to potentially hinder ticket sales by giving away the broadcast/streaming rights.

It's really too bad. Even school streaming/broadcasting services are required to pay the fee, which is typically more than these streaming services can recoop.

Duluthguy · Post by **Duluthguy** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:37 am

boblee wrote:
Duluthguy wrote:The sections are able to sell the rights to the broadcasts. This has happened here in Duluth for years, in that a local TV station has purchased the rights to broadcast the 7AA and 7A finals. So a website as you describe could purchase the broadcast rights and sell advertising to recover the costs and potentially make some money. In that sense these sites aren't limited at all by the section, only by their ability to generate enough income to cover the costs.

Because the section games generate revenue for the section committee, they're reluctant to potentially hinder ticket sales by giving away the broadcast/streaming rights.
It's really too bad. Even school streaming/broadcasting services are required to pay the fee, which is typically more than these streaming services can recoop.

Correct. A school would be unlikely to have the ability to cover the cost through ad sales. One of the "for-profit" sites that sells advertising (if any of them are actually profitable) might be able to do it, although I don't know what the rights fee is.

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:52 am

I have to think this rule was put in place long before the proliferation non ad based streaming tools.

Hopefully the section committees realize this needs to be fixed.

Nuts&Bolts · Post by **Nuts&Bolts** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:20 pm

Don't hold your breath for a change when $ is involved.

sterfry9 · Post by **sterfry9** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:21 pm

how much does something like this cost to purchase the rights to streaming the sections games etc?

Wblhcky2424 · Post by **Wblhcky2424** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:00 pm

They also restrict you from doing live video when there's a state tournament going on at the same time because of their deal with grand stadium, for example since the girls state tourney is going on right now, there won't be live video online.

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:24 am

Look for me at the section 2AA games on Sat. I'll be the guy streaming from my iPhone, daring the Section bosses to call the cops to confiscate it.

PSBMedia · Post by **PSBMedia** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:25 am

We (PSB Media) would love to stream some section games, but unfortunately most of the sections don't allow any sort of video streaming unless it's Prep45/Grand Stadium TV. They do allow audio only streaming but require a rights fee to be paid for that. A couple sections do sometimes allow video streaming I believe, like 7AA.

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:49 am

PSBMedia wrote:We (PSB Media) would love to stream some section games, but unfortunately most of the sections don't allow any sort of video streaming unless it's Prep45/Grand Stadium TV. They do allow audio only streaming but require a rights fee to be paid for that. A couple sections do sometimes allow video streaming I believe, like 7AA.

7AA kind of allows media streaming. WDIO/WIRT has the rights and they pay a decent fee in order to do so. The Grand Rapids High School can't even stream video without paying the senseless fee.

hockeydad · Post by **hockeydad** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:31 am

To clarify, I believe the answer to the original question is that the MSHSL has no policy on streaming section games. It allows each section to set its own policy and sell the rights, if it wants.

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:05 am

It seems odd to me that sections would be able to dictate terms to member schools beyond enforcement of MSHSL rules. The MSHSL or sections are administrative entities. If they want to be revenue generating bodies (like, say, a college conference) they should be required to share that revenue with members (which I get is a bigger issue than just streaming fees)

In any case, there are lots of non ad based streaming options for schools. Can't really see how the sections think they can legislate over that.

Any lawyers on the forum? Bet it would be an easy case if somebody really wanted to push it.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:37 am

The sections split the money made after expenses up evenly to its member schools. The streaming fees would have to be pretty high to offset ticket revenue losses.

For example 1AA (I use them because 8 teams makes the math easy) sells 3000 tickets for the semifinals and 2000 for the finals, say each ticket costs $7, that is $35,000 in revenue. Say ice rental, officials, awards, etc cost $3000.......each school then gets back $4000. How much is someone streaming going pay, less than $1000 I'd bet. Probably not enough to offset loses in ticket sales.

Most sections lose money on swimming, girls hockey, and adapted hockey, hopefully break even on wrestling and girls basketball, that leaves hockey and boys basketball to pay the bills.

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:34 am

I guess the question then is that for some of the streaming services the broadcast quality is pretty marginal. Is it really likely to have a material impact on ticket sales. If it was PSB or 12.tv, probably. The Cube? Probably not.

Anyway, whether we can see them on line or not, good luck to all the teams. Should be a great weekend

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:53 am

goldy313 wrote:The sections split the money made after expenses up evenly to its member schools. The streaming fees would have to be pretty high to offset ticket revenue losses.

For example 1AA (I use them because 8 teams makes the math easy) sells 3000 tickets for the semifinals and 2000 for the finals, say each ticket costs $7, that is $35,000 in revenue. Say ice rental, officials, awards, etc cost $3000.......each school then gets back $4000. How much is someone streaming going pay, less than $1000 I'd bet. Probably not enough to offset loses in ticket sales.

Most sections lose money on swimming, girls hockey, and adapted hockey, hopefully break even on wrestling and girls basketball, that leaves hockey and boys basketball to pay the bills.

Fans aren't going to stay in and watch a web stream vs. going to the game. A web stream brings the game to people outside of the city, region, state, etc. Or allows a parent away on business to watch, etc. The MSHSL does not have an open mind. Neither do a lot of schools. They think that because people CAN watch online, no one will come to the games. That's hilarious thinking.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:44 am

boblee wrote:
Fans aren't going to stay in and watch a web stream vs. going to the game. A web stream brings the game to people outside of the city, region, state, etc. Or allows a parent away on business to watch, etc. The MSHSL does not have an open mind. Neither do a lot of schools. They think that because people CAN watch online, no one will come to the games. That's hilarious thinking.

You're wrong on a few accounts. There are events that do stream through a subscription process i.e. Trackwrestling. It does advesely affect attendance, two major wrestling tournaments use it but both tournaments control all the revenue themselves. Track pays pretty well for the rights, but because it is s subscription service they can. There is no similar type service for hockey.

The MSHSL and each individual section are separate entities. Sections run section tournaments, the MSHSL runs state tournaments. The MSHSL streams state tournaments through a service, you can watch every match live of the state wrestling tournament for $5 per day. I watch the A hockey portion on Wednesday through the service as I have directv and that is the only way I can watch it.

Start a service, pay a fair rate and see what comes of it.

Puckwest · Post by **Puckwest** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:33 am

Non commercial streaming services might reduce some attendance but any complaint by the Sections about that smacks of greed (intentional or not). At the end of the day, these are high school events, played by kids. We all subsidize them through taxes and activities fees. I just don't think it should be the Sections place to decide to levy access fees of any kind. That should be the schools perogative. They play 25 other games a year without the Sections "help". Not sure if the value added by the Sections justifies what some would consider a bit of a money grab.

Duluthguy · Post by **Duluthguy** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:34 pm

Puckwest wrote: I just don't think it should be the Sections place to decide to levy access fees of any kind. That should be the schools perogative.

Well, the section is run by the school ADs so the schools and the sections are basically the same. And as someone else stated, the revenue generated helps support section play for other sctivities that don't generate the same dollars.

I also think it would be great if all the games were streamed, because living in Duluth, we don't have the opportunity to go see a lot of them in person. But I underdtand why it is the way it is.

boblee · Post by **boblee** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:44 am

goldy313 wrote:
boblee wrote:
Fans aren't going to stay in and watch a web stream vs. going to the game. A web stream brings the game to people outside of the city, region, state, etc. Or allows a parent away on business to watch, etc. The MSHSL does not have an open mind. Neither do a lot of schools. They think that because people CAN watch online, no one will come to the games. That's hilarious thinking.
You're wrong on a few accounts. There are events that do stream through a subscription process i.e. Trackwrestling. It does advesely affect attendance, two major wrestling tournaments use it but both tournaments control all the revenue themselves. Track pays pretty well for the rights, but because it is s subscription service they can. There is no similar type service for hockey.

The MSHSL and each individual section are separate entities. Sections run section tournaments, the MSHSL runs state tournaments. The MSHSL streams state tournaments through a service, you can watch every match live of the state wrestling tournament for $5 per day. I watch the A hockey portion on Wednesday through the service as I have directv and that is the only way I can watch it.

Start a service, pay a fair rate and see what comes of it.

Funny how my opinion can be WRONG. Yours must be wrong then, too. Opinions are opinions. I have mine, you have yours. How about this - attendance has GROWN at Grand Rapids since we started live streaming home games. The state hockey tournament is on FREE TV state-wide and it continues to be unreal.

You can pick one example to back your opinion. I can pick one to back mine. It isn't cut and dried.