Wayzata vs Ep- thoughts?

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Trout
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Post by Trout » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:38 am

Congrats to Wayzata...they did what it took for them to win it all. They had the deepest and used that to their advantage...no doubt there.

I think the issue is how the refs call the game so different in the state tourney when compared to the regular season. If this were a regular season game there would have been 3 5/10 plus 10 more penalties. They say they are protecting the kids but not this weekend? Consistency would be nice. The players all know the refs are afraid to make calls this weekend.

Wayzata breaks 2 stick across Stillwater players in the first period and no penalties called? No penalties in the entire Stillwater Wayzata and Stillwater GR games...really? There were some crazy football tackles and interference penalties that were not called (both ways).

At least call the Stillwater player for a penalty when he gets dragged down yells at the ref and throws the GR players stick to center ice! You know you swallowed the whistle when you let a kid show you up that way!

Don't get me wrong, I love physical hockey...but don't penalize the kids all year for this stuff then say it is too big a stage to make a call.

Anyway GREAT tourney and GREAT game in the ship. Very exciting.

GP4Lhockey
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Post by GP4Lhockey » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:35 am

mulefarm wrote:This is the first time I have seen Middlestat play. Does he play this motivated all the time? Every time he was on the ice he was dangerous. Will he be back, or will he play USHL or would his family adviser push him to major junior thinking he could be a top 5 pick?
I've played with the kid and I'll say not only is he a great competitor as well as a fantastic player, but he's also a very great guy in he locker room too which doesn't always happen with the top players like him. He's a humble kid and doesn't really brag about where he is. From what I've heard is that he'll be playing next year at the University of Minnesota a la Nick Bjugstad. When the kid puts his mind to it he plays like a future 1st line NHL'er.

Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:04 am

karl(east) wrote:Congrats to the Trojans on their championship (and for giving me a perfect AA bracket). :D

It was a fantastic game, probably the most entertaining final to a neutral in 10+ years outside of East-EP in 2011. As others have noted, the timeout was crucial, and once the Trojans sprung Paterson and Duma for the shorty, you could feel the momentum swing. After that, they locked in defensively, sustained some great zone time that allowed them to expose EP where they were weakest (in net), and wore things down. Wayzata's 4th line got a shift with under 3 minutes to go, and while I'm sure that caused the Trojan faithful's hearts to skip a few beats, it shows what confidence he has in his depth and his style that he's managed to get the whole team to buy into. This was a team where literally everyone on the bench contributed to a title, though probably none more so than the man in the net, Schilling. That's championship hockey.

On the majors: I thought the first major was legit, and the 2nd looked more like 2 for charging, but like goldy explained, if they do follow the league's stance to the letter, you understand why they called it.

On Hank: You either love him or you hate him. He takes things to absurd levels, and I've heard so many stories that at some point I basically just laugh at them all and just say it's Hank being Hank. Nothing he does surprises me anymore. Yes, to make it at a higher level, he is going to have to find a way to reel himself in some. Whatever antics he pulls, though, he is an awfully good defensive defenseman. O'Leary said it straight up in the first press conference: he is what he uses to shut down other teams' top players. He basically did that in three straight games. O'Leary doesn't really line match with forwards, but he does with his D, and Hank is always on the other teams' best. He held Casey in check quite a few times tonight (just one point, after 11 in the first two games), and his hits get the entire team going. Love him or hate him, he is Wayzata's most important skater, and he has a goofy energy that infects the whole bench. You see a lot of him in how this team plays.
He'll never reel himself in if he's always allowed to get away with it. He should have been tossed. People need to quit making excuses for an "emotional" kid. What else should he be able to get away with because he's "emotional"? Obviously his behavior has been allowed a lot in the past and that is why he can't control himself now.

green4
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Post by green4 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:52 am

Mite-dad wrote:
karl(east) wrote:Congrats to the Trojans on their championship (and for giving me a perfect AA bracket). :D

It was a fantastic game, probably the most entertaining final to a neutral in 10+ years outside of East-EP in 2011. As others have noted, the timeout was crucial, and once the Trojans sprung Paterson and Duma for the shorty, you could feel the momentum swing. After that, they locked in defensively, sustained some great zone time that allowed them to expose EP where they were weakest (in net), and wore things down. Wayzata's 4th line got a shift with under 3 minutes to go, and while I'm sure that caused the Trojan faithful's hearts to skip a few beats, it shows what confidence he has in his depth and his style that he's managed to get the whole team to buy into. This was a team where literally everyone on the bench contributed to a title, though probably none more so than the man in the net, Schilling. That's championship hockey.

On the majors: I thought the first major was legit, and the 2nd looked more like 2 for charging, but like goldy explained, if they do follow the league's stance to the letter, you understand why they called it.

On Hank: You either love him or you hate him. He takes things to absurd levels, and I've heard so many stories that at some point I basically just laugh at them all and just say it's Hank being Hank. Nothing he does surprises me anymore. Yes, to make it at a higher level, he is going to have to find a way to reel himself in some. Whatever antics he pulls, though, he is an awfully good defensive defenseman. O'Leary said it straight up in the first press conference: he is what he uses to shut down other teams' top players. He basically did that in three straight games. O'Leary doesn't really line match with forwards, but he does with his D, and Hank is always on the other teams' best. He held Casey in check quite a few times tonight (just one point, after 11 in the first two games), and his hits get the entire team going. Love him or hate him, he is Wayzata's most important skater, and he has a goofy energy that infects the whole bench. You see a lot of him in how this team plays.
He'll never reel himself in if he's always allowed to get away with it. He should have been tossed. People need to quit making excuses for an "emotional" kid. What else should he be able to get away with because he's "emotional"? Obviously his behavior has been allowed a lot in the past and that is why he can't control himself now.
Where did you get your psychology degree, doctor?

WestMetro
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Post by WestMetro » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:34 am

Yes congrats to the Trojans on their first! And congrats to GB on his December team overhaul plan that helped motivate OLeary I think.

I watched this team about 5x year during OLeary era. Must confess didn't see this coming for this bunch of kids. I had them at 14th in my preseason . Then they seemed up and down during the season. They sure proved me wrong.

One thing that amazed me by the time Feb rolled around was how much many of these kids had grown in terms of size and strength in the last year. . If they weren't the biggest team in AA in recent years, they were close to it. They really wore teams down by 3rd period, whether on the boards or clogs in the middle

Was also impressed during the season and tourney by the number of different kids who contributed to team success

Could go on and on, but those are a few lookback thoughts

GoldenBear
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Post by GoldenBear » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:10 am

Green4. You are spot on in your comments. A good hockey mind. I always enjoy reading what you say. Many on hear get emotional but you are the voice of reason. As to Sorenson, he's played on the same team as many of the kids in the tournament and I know for a FACT I will say it again a FACT that ALL those kids love him as a team mate and hate playing against him GB

boomerang
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Post by boomerang » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:30 am

green4 wrote:
meridian90 wrote:
Nuts&Bolts wrote:Somebody please just explain how Hacking Hank makes the all tournament team. One assist in three games and Wayzata's best 5 minutes all week is when he's sitting in the box for a major. He really did little to nothing other than run around looking for heads. There were at least 2 other Wayzata D men that were much better on the ice all tournament.

Another string for the refereeing but at least two hits tonight would 'easily' have lead to game DQs. No consistency in the regular season and state tournament.
I talked to a guy working in the scorer's box after the game. Hank was about 1 word away from getting tossed, after being given about 10 chances to stop swearing at officials and scorers in the box. Pretty classless.
if you watched him through the handshake line and his post game press conference I think you would think he is full of class.
Kids get emotional and I don't doubt he had some choice words for the officials, but I don't think that makes him classless. I'm not sure I believe him swearing at scorers in the box, that doesn't really make sense.
I was standing at the top of the lower level behind the box, and you could hear it clear as day. He screamed to the refs they f-ing sucked

WestMetro
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Post by WestMetro » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:11 am

Green4, I thought the Johannes hit on Anderson was a payback hit for Andersons stab at CM behind Schillings cage after a whistle a minute before. I thought at the time he was a marked man after that , and I thought the refs might have cut Johannes a break with only a minor because of the previous CM noncall - not that they should have

But, maybe too much psychology

Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:35 am

green4 wrote:
Mite-dad wrote:
karl(east) wrote:Congrats to the Trojans on their championship (and for giving me a perfect AA bracket). :D

It was a fantastic game, probably the most entertaining final to a neutral in 10+ years outside of East-EP in 2011. As others have noted, the timeout was crucial, and once the Trojans sprung Paterson and Duma for the shorty, you could feel the momentum swing. After that, they locked in defensively, sustained some great zone time that allowed them to expose EP where they were weakest (in net), and wore things down. Wayzata's 4th line got a shift with under 3 minutes to go, and while I'm sure that caused the Trojan faithful's hearts to skip a few beats, it shows what confidence he has in his depth and his style that he's managed to get the whole team to buy into. This was a team where literally everyone on the bench contributed to a title, though probably none more so than the man in the net, Schilling. That's championship hockey.

On the majors: I thought the first major was legit, and the 2nd looked more like 2 for charging, but like goldy explained, if they do follow the league's stance to the letter, you understand why they called it.

On Hank: You either love him or you hate him. He takes things to absurd levels, and I've heard so many stories that at some point I basically just laugh at them all and just say it's Hank being Hank. Nothing he does surprises me anymore. Yes, to make it at a higher level, he is going to have to find a way to reel himself in some. Whatever antics he pulls, though, he is an awfully good defensive defenseman. O'Leary said it straight up in the first press conference: he is what he uses to shut down other teams' top players. He basically did that in three straight games. O'Leary doesn't really line match with forwards, but he does with his D, and Hank is always on the other teams' best. He held Casey in check quite a few times tonight (just one point, after 11 in the first two games), and his hits get the entire team going. Love him or hate him, he is Wayzata's most important skater, and he has a goofy energy that infects the whole bench. You see a lot of him in how this team plays.
He'll never reel himself in if he's always allowed to get away with it. He should have been tossed. People need to quit making excuses for an "emotional" kid. What else should he be able to get away with because he's "emotional"? Obviously his behavior has been allowed a lot in the past and that is why he can't control himself now.
Where did you get your psychology degree, doctor?
Apparently not the same place you got yours. :wink: I just can't stand poor sportsmanship and that is exactly what he showed by cussing at the ref and profanities in the box. He got away with it. What will stop him from doing it again next time he disagrees with a call in an important game.

Anyways, glad Wayzata won. I was rooting for them to get that first one. And I'm not a psychologist,......, but my wife is! :P

yesiplayedhockey
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Post by yesiplayedhockey » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:35 pm

Im not psychologist either but I did stay at a Holiday Inn back about 6 months ago.

Kid's make mistakes, they do dumb things. Should he have gotten kicked out of the game? Fair question.... Will he act like this next time? probably. I've been around hockey long enough to know that things like this usually start with the coaching or the Dad. If they thinks its cute, funny or okay to act like this then expect it not only to continue but to get worse

I've only seen this kid play a few times but my worry is all this hype may turn him into a one dimensional side show to the game of hockey. If he's going to play at the college level believe me he's going to have to learn to dial that back a bit and focus on the other attributes a college coach needs out of their D

Like I said, I give him a pass due to the nature of the game. I like certain things he does but if I was his dad I'd tell him to keep the mouth guard in (i.e. shut the trap), head to the penalty box and hope he doesn't put his team in a hole.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:52 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote:Im not psychologist either but I did stay at a Holiday Inn back about 6 months ago.

Kid's make mistakes, they do dumb things. Should he have gotten kicked out of the game? Fair question.... Will he act like this next time? probably. I've been around hockey long enough to know that things like this usually start with the coaching or the Dad. If they thinks its cute, funny or okay to act like this then expect it not only to continue but to get worse

I've only seen this kid play a few times but my worry is all this hype may turn him into a one dimensional side show to the game of hockey. If he's going to play at the college level believe me he's going to have to learn to dial that back a bit and focus on the other attributes a college coach needs out of their D

Like I said, I give him a pass due to the nature of the game. I like certain things he does but if I was his dad I'd tell him to keep the mouth guard in (i.e. shut the trap), head to the penalty box and hope he doesn't put his team in a hole.
I've met the dad, and he's always struck me as one of the more pleasantly reasonable hockey dads you'll ever meet. Certainly not the sort who yells at the rink or thinks his kid is entitled to something. I have no doubt he's tried to have his share of teaching moments. Hank also has an older brother who played at Wayzata, and I don't recall much drama around him.

I think Hank is just a...um...unique case.

mulefarm
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Post by mulefarm » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:03 pm

If his behavior in the penalty box and language towards the ref are true, shame on the ref for not giving him 10 or kicking him out. All this did his reinforce this behavior will be tolerated! I would guess that 100/100 times when a HS player uses the F word at an official he is gone! Kids make mistakes, but with no consequences their behavior will probably not change.

Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:11 pm

Hey! Some other folks went to the same psychology school I did! LOL.

boomerang
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Post by boomerang » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:18 pm

mulefarm wrote:If his behavior in the penalty box and language towards the ref are true, shame on the ref for not giving him 10 or kicking him out. All this did his reinforce this behavior will be tolerated! I would guess that 100/100 times when a HS player uses the F word at an official he is gone! Kids make mistakes, but with no consequences their behavior will probably not change.
I'm sure a little slack was given since this is a big game, the kids were feeling the pressure, it was televised, it was an intense game, etc. Not saying it was okay, but I don't think it's at all a reflection on his parents or his coaches. I've seen plenty of kids who do similar things, and sometimes they get tossed from the game, the coaches sit them, their parents yell at them and take away the Xbox, and they do the same damn thing the next game. They're teenage boys, and teenage boys can be dumb sometimes, no matter how many times adults tell them not to be.

Section 8 guy
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Post by Section 8 guy » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:01 pm

I didn't have a horse in the race and really didn't care who won, but Personally, I'm hoping "the Wayzata Way" doesn't get mimicked by other teams in the near future as a recipe for success. They set hockey back 30 years in one night with their cheap play. There was nothing dynamic about it, it isn't good hockey and it sure isnt fun to watch.

In regards to the defenseman......he's a dangerous and dirty player and that shouldn't surprise anyone. It's been talked about all season and his penalty minutes show it. The hit happened right in front of me, it looked up close like intent to injure and he should have been tossed.

On another note, I haven't been through the board much......did Mittelstadt get dinged up on that first shift and have some lingering effects from it? It looked at points like he was trying to stretch something out and it seemed like he didn't quite have that extra gear......but of course that could have been Wayzatas D doing a nice job of containing him.

HappyHockeyFan
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Post by HappyHockeyFan » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:08 pm

I disagree, I had a blast watching the tough physical play of Wayzata. This is hockey, its physical, perhaps if you cant stomach it you should turn your attention to the girls basketball tournament coming up, might be more your style.
It's not the Best players, it's the Right players! HB

hockeygirl2
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Post by hockeygirl2 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:42 am

I don't think Wayzata was overly physical in their style of play (other than the one player who has been mentioned) but it is very defensive minded. The center is back when they have a lead in the third and they even go to 4 down low when the other team is coming into the zone. It makes it difficult to pass or get quality shots in the scoring area. The flaw with this style is if you are tied or behind it doesn't work. Wayzata had very little in the way of offensive pressure all game. 3 of the 4 goals came from about the blue line and none were even screened. Played a good D game and a good goalie.

The difference in the game was on the 5 minute penalty late in the second. Wayzata took advantage of EP having puzzling lines on the ice (read third and fourth) during a critical time and paid for those errors. That should not have happened. EP would have won that game going away had they gone into the third with a 3-1 lead. They didn't and lost and that's why they play the games!

ahastars03
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Post by ahastars03 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:51 am

Congrats to Wayzata. Great group of kids they showed how much talent they had top to bottom on that team. Big group of Sr's that finished off a very successful hockey career with Wayzata.

Also Congrats to O'Leary on his first title.

BodyShots
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Post by BodyShots » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:59 am

Hear are my thoughts on the game and the tournament:

1. The time out was the turning point in the game. After the time out, Wayzata continued to be physical, but not out of hand. In order to come back and win this game, they needed to stay out of the box!

2. It amazed me how little Wayzata used their defensemen in the offensive zone. But when they did, they capitalized on it and scored many goals. The first goal in the Stillwater game came from a shot by the point and it continued throughout the final. They were wide open all weekend long.

3. Wayzata's depth was what won them this title. Most teams over use their first two lines (Stillwater) and their third lines barely see the ice. Not only did Wayzata play their third line, but their fourth line saw a significant amount of ice time as well. Wayzata won every third period convincingly, which won them the tournament.

4. Checking to the Head. Is this the only way these kids are being taught to check now a days? I was flabbergasted at how many times the hands came up high and to the head. It seemed like every time a defensemen stood up an on rushing forward, the hit was high and followed through the chin or higher.

5. Great tournament! I enjoyed watching every game in AA.

NotMinnesotan
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Post by NotMinnesotan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:23 am

I think you are all wrong about Hank. If he wants to play at the next level he needs to play exactly like he does every night. A tough guy to play against and someone who can stir it up a bit. Junior coaches love those guys. I love his future.

yesiplayedhockey
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Post by yesiplayedhockey » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:43 am

NotMinnesotan wrote:I think you are all wrong about Hank. If he wants to play at the next level he needs to play exactly like he does every night. A tough guy to play against and someone who can stir it up a bit. Junior coaches love those guys. I love his future.
We can agree to disagree

1. In my eyes "next level" isn't juniors it's D-1. But you're right, if the end goal is juniors there's a place for him somewhere

2. Maybe 10-15 years ago he could go far just playing physical. But it's a huge risk to put a kid in a a D-1 lineup today if a kid can't keep up to the faster pace of play. And if a kid lacks discipline or is loose cannon, College scouts may not want the risk.

Next year will be the measuring stick. I'd like to see the puck on his stick more and see what skills he has other than just hitting. Good luck to the kid, I know he got my attention and I'll be watching his progress

Houndhockey
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Post by Houndhockey » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:49 am

On Sorenson, this is only the 3rd or 4th time I've seen him play but every time I see him there is some sort of controversy or alleged "cheap shot". I don't necessarily have a problem with his style of play, but I do have a problem with his attitude and disregard for authority. For him to go on a tirade like it sounds like he did, to have to have the refs come back over and open the box to essentially tell him to shut up, he's fortunate to not have been tossed from the game and really hurt his teams chances of winning. Kids don't learn from not being penalized. I'm not going say that this game set HS hockey back 30 years like another poster did, but it's a bummer to watch arrogant kids thinking they can talk to adults like some do. I think in general MN has set up a culture of letting hockey players get away with a lot more than other sports athletes or just other kids their age. In the end, it does come down to parenting and coaching. Not to say that Sorenson's parents are bad parents or that O'Leary is a bad coach, but these kids need to be harnessed. Attending games regularly, I hear a lot of foul mouthed parents yelling at refs or the other teams players like they are alone when really there are hundreds of other fans hearing them. They are setting the example for the next generation of hockey players and more importantly for humans in general.

We can do better Minnesota!
East High Rah Rah Rah....

Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:26 am

NotMinnesotan wrote:I think you are all wrong about Hank. If he wants to play at the next level he needs to play exactly like he does every night. A tough guy to play against and someone who can stir it up a bit. Junior coaches love those guys. I love his future.
Sounds like I need to revisit my youth coaching manual for that chapter on encouraging cussing and disrespecting the refs and looking for that big blow-up hit so I can get more kids to that next level. :wink:

GoldenBear
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Post by GoldenBear » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:58 am

My two cents on Sorenson. They don't win the championship without him. Isn't that the goal for these kids March 2016? The Refs didn't kick him out so not sure why we are even making a big deal about it--because we are opinionated bloggers. The ref was in the best position to assess the matter and apply any punishment (one could argue that the 5 minute was Sorenson's penance--I thought it should have been two--so yell at me for that). I can guarantee there was a lot of non catholic school discussions the whole game. Regardless, a teaching moment presents itself. I think sports are great because they allow for teaching moments. We even make a big deal about kids taking off second place medals. It's all life's lessons. Elliott, I liked your pick. I thought it was bad karma but it was good Karma. I thought the tournament was great. GB

NotMinnesotan
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Post by NotMinnesotan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:26 am

Mite-dad wrote:
NotMinnesotan wrote:I think you are all wrong about Hank. If he wants to play at the next level he needs to play exactly like he does every night. A tough guy to play against and someone who can stir it up a bit. Junior coaches love those guys. I love his future.
Sounds like I need to revisit my youth coaching manual for that chapter on encouraging cussing and disrespecting the refs and looking for that big blow-up hit so I can get more kids to that next level. :wink:
No keep looking at those manuals to run your mite practices. I am talking about actual hockey at a higher level. Where toughness is a factor and players who have that mentality that Hank does are some of the coaches favorite players.

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