Class A hockey

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kniven
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Post by kniven » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:08 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:I think you forgot about Parker Hawk, Dylan Samberg, Logan Judnick and Eric Gotz. They did not play Mites at Hermantown.

The climate has changed a lot since my kids played even. It's light years from 2005. Last year's Hermantown Squirt A team had kids from all over. Six different Associations according to my co-worker who had a kid on the team. Head coach from that team lives in Duluth. Assistant is from Proctor.

This aint your Father's Youth Hockey anymore. It's the reality, but would be nice if it was confined to AA. That's all anyone on here is saying.
Yep that's it. And unfortunately, there are a lot of smalll programs that loose all of their D1 talent. But for me, it's %100 about the kids who stay. I don't hold the players who leave early nearly as high in my mind as the ones who stay. For me, it's not about talent as much as it is heart.

thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:30 pm

Bring back one class tournament, sweet sixteen format and let's do this right. 8)

rainier
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Post by rainier » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:16 pm

thestickler07 wrote:Bring back one class tournament, sweet sixteen format and let's do this right. 8)
Not a bad suggestion, but it would be easier if teams that play against AA competition all throughout youth levels and the high school regular season would just decide to play against AA competition during the HS playoffs also.

From the time a Hermantown kid puts skates on for the first time in their life until the day they graduate high school, the longest stretch of games they will play against single A teams is the single A playoffs. Now that's some small town hockey for you! :D

The original poster must be forgiven for thinking that Virginia can win 7A. When you follow these good A teams throughout youth, you see them do very well against A competition and naturally assume they will go to state in HS also. But what you may not realize is that while your Blue Devils are beating Greenway, Little Falls, EGF, Mound, etc., Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.

It's easy to forget that those Hermantown teams don't "belong" in single A until they get to 10th grade. Something happens to these players between the ages of 15 and 16 that renders them incapable of competing against AA teams come playoff time; hopefully science will one day find a cure.
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

Bigcat99
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Post by Bigcat99 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:50 pm

rainier wrote:
Not a bad suggestion, but it would be easier if teams that play against AA competition all throughout youth levels and the high school regular season would just decide to play against AA competition during the HS playoffs also.

From the time a Hermantown kid puts skates on for the first time in their life until the day they graduate high school, the longest stretch of games they will play against single A teams is the single A playoffs. Now that's some small town hockey for you! :D

The original poster must be forgiven for thinking that Virginia can win 7A. When you follow these good A teams throughout youth, you see them do very well against A competition and naturally assume they will go to state in HS also. But what you may not realize is that while your Blue Devils are beating Greenway, Little Falls, EGF, Mound, etc., Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.

It's easy to forget that those Hermantown teams don't "belong" in single A until they get to 10th grade. Something happens to these players between the ages of 15 and 16 that renders them incapable of competing against AA teams come playoff time; hopefully science will one day find a cure.
NAILED IT!
It is what it is!

kniven
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Post by kniven » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:10 am

rainier wrote:
thestickler07 wrote:Bring back one class tournament, sweet sixteen format and let's do this right. 8)
Not a bad suggestion, but it would be easier if teams that play against AA competition all throughout youth levels and the high school regular season would just decide to play against AA competition during the HS playoffs also.

From the time a Hermantown kid puts skates on for the first time in their life until the day they graduate high school, the longest stretch of games they will play against single A teams is the single A playoffs. Now that's some small town hockey for you! :D

The original poster must be forgiven for thinking that Virginia can win 7A. When you follow these good A teams throughout youth, you see them do very well against A competition and naturally assume they will go to state in HS also. But what you may not realize is that while your Blue Devils are beating Greenway, Little Falls, EGF, Mound, etc., Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.

It's easy to forget that those Hermantown teams don't "belong" in single A until they get to 10th grade. Something happens to these players between the ages of 15 and 16 that renders them incapable of competing against AA teams come playoff time; hopefully science will one day find a cure.
Wow. That is better said than I've ever heard or read. I have texted it to several hockey people I know. You certainly did nail it. Well done!!!

SFA1992
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Post by SFA1992 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:11 am

mic drop from Rainier.

Tripod
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Post by Tripod » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:01 pm

Minor point, but "Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.", it's really more like Hermantown is up in AA beating Wayzata, Roseville, Hopkins, Grand Rapids, WBL, Brainard and Bemidji - looking at the past recent history of their schedule.

I don't so much mind these small but powerful programs being in A, as it makes the other A teams work all the much harder. Human nature is such that you only work as hard as you have to.

If we were to force Hermantown to move to AA, then it makes no sense that a weak AA school cannot freely move to A. All this hand-wringing is solved by ranking all teams in the state in one poll, then the top 32 make it into a NCAA style tournament.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:20 pm

Tripod wrote:I don't so much mind these small but powerful programs being in A.
You're not small when you are in an MSA of 279,771 people and any top player can open-enroll to your program.

Goldy Gopher
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Post by Goldy Gopher » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:45 pm

Tripod wrote:Minor point, but "Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.", it's really more like Hermantown is up in AA beating Wayzata, Roseville, Hopkins, Grand Rapids, WBL, Brainard and Bemidji - looking at the past recent history of their schedule.

I don't so much mind these small but powerful programs being in A, as it makes the other A teams work all the much harder. Human nature is such that you only work as hard as you have to.

If we were to force Hermantown to move to AA, then it makes no sense that a weak AA school cannot freely move to A. All this hand-wringing is solved by ranking all teams in the state in one poll, then the top 32 make it into a NCAA style tournament.
It actually does make sense that a weak AA school can't move down to A. Their enrollment is too large. Using enrollment as the cut off for a two class system that only allows upward mobility fails when bad A teams move to AA. That isn't happening.
The U invented swagger.

zamboniexhaustinhaler
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Post by zamboniexhaustinhaler » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:20 pm

Tripod wrote:Minor point, but "Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.", it's really more like Hermantown is up in AA beating Wayzata, Roseville, Hopkins, Grand Rapids, WBL, Brainard and Bemidji - looking at the past recent history of their schedule.

I don't so much mind these small but powerful programs being in A, as it makes the other A teams work all the much harder. Human nature is such that you only work as hard as you have to.

If we were to force Hermantown to move to AA, then it makes no sense that a weak AA school cannot freely move to A. All this hand-wringing is solved by ranking all teams in the state in one poll, then the top 32 make it into a NCAA style tournament.
With all due, that's a bit of fairy tale land thinking.

Many kids on A programs are just playing hockey because they like it, have no illusions or even desires beyond that, let alone "working harder" to beat a H-town or it's equivalent.

p.s. I could care less about H-town one way or the other.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:28 pm

Tripod wrote:Minor point, but "Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.", it's really more like Hermantown is up in AA beating Wayzata, Roseville, Hopkins, Grand Rapids, WBL, Brainard and Bemidji - looking at the past recent history of their schedule.

I don't so much mind these small but powerful programs being in A, as it makes the other A teams work all the much harder. Human nature is such that you only work as hard as you have to.

If we were to force Hermantown to move to AA, then it makes no sense that a weak AA school cannot freely move to A. All this hand-wringing is solved by ranking all teams in the state in one poll, then the top 32 make it into a NCAA style tournament.
Last year's and this year's Hermantown varsity teams were beating Edina, EP, DE, etc. at the youth levels, and the current teams are competing well with those programs. Regardless, your point is the same argument Hermantown bobos put forward: "We shouldn't move up to AA until we can beat all the top AA teams all the time."

The question still remains: "If Hermantown players are good enough to compete at the AA level all throughout the youth levels and the HS regular season, then why aren't they good enough to do it during the HS playoffs also?"

Considering Hermantown defeated 7AA champ GR 5-0 last year, it's safe to predict that the Hawks would have won 7AA, and considering they also beat state champ Wayzata during the regular season, it's safe to predict they would have had a great shot at the AA title, and the team should be nearly as good this season.

Hermantown being in AA also would have made the A tourney 100% more interesting. Instead of a string of blowout snoozefests, Hibbing or Greenway would have won 7A and the parity amongst Breck, SPA, TRF, SCC, and the 7A champ would have made for a great tournament. Even upstart Litchfield could have at least had a shot at an upset at one of those teams.

Hermantown is an affluent suburb of Duluth and allows open enrollment; they are now more like STA than they are a small town hockey program.

It's really is great that they have built a top program that does attract talent, but they've outgrown single A and need to take the next step.

If Plante plans on retiring after this season, then he needs to let someone else make the call as to whether they opt up starting in 17-18. There's a 99% likelihood they win the A title again this year, and no one will be impressed. People want to see the best play the best, and Hermantown will once again become the darlings of HS hockey once they move up to AA.

Yes, I also want them out of 7A so that my Hibbing team has a chance more often, but I also want to see the other teams in 7A get a shot. There is good parity with Hibbing, Greenway, Virginia, Denfeld, and even Eveleth at the various youth levels, and without Goliath Hermantown in 7A, struggling teams like North Shore, I-Falls, and Proctor could make a run with just one very good class. I think this type of parity is good for all the programs in the section.

It is time for Hermantown to follow the advice they were giving STA for years: "Stop chasing trophies and opt up to AA where you belong."
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

greenwayraider
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Post by greenwayraider » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:57 pm

The only point I would add is one I've made before. The bigget losers in Plante's decision to stay in A are the players and the community. Why would you deny them the unbelievable experience of being on the main stage of the greatest high school tournament in the nation? You are also teaching players that there is nothing to be gained in being challenged and reaching for your full potential. I guarantee that if Greenway (or any other Range team) had the quality program Hermantown has they would opt up in a heart beat. This topic has been beaten to death and there is no chance of Hermantown opting up as long as Plante is coach and maybe beyond depending upon who takes his place. I find it particularly hypocritical of Hermantown staying in A giving the moaning and whining Plante did about STA.

blueblood
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Class A

Post by blueblood » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:10 pm

blah, blah, blah....

Can we put this one to rest please? Plante isn't going to change his ways.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:37 pm

kniven wrote:
rainier wrote:
thestickler07 wrote:Bring back one class tournament, sweet sixteen format and let's do this right. 8)
Not a bad suggestion, but it would be easier if teams that play against AA competition all throughout youth levels and the high school regular season would just decide to play against AA competition during the HS playoffs also.

From the time a Hermantown kid puts skates on for the first time in their life until the day they graduate high school, the longest stretch of games they will play against single A teams is the single A playoffs. Now that's some small town hockey for you! :D

The original poster must be forgiven for thinking that Virginia can win 7A. When you follow these good A teams throughout youth, you see them do very well against A competition and naturally assume they will go to state in HS also. But what you may not realize is that while your Blue Devils are beating Greenway, Little Falls, EGF, Mound, etc., Hermantown is up in AA beating Edina, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Duluth East.

It's easy to forget that those Hermantown teams don't "belong" in single A until they get to 10th grade. Something happens to these players between the ages of 15 and 16 that renders them incapable of competing against AA teams come playoff time; hopefully science will one day find a cure.
Wow. That is better said than I've ever heard or read. I have texted it to several hockey people I know. You certainly did nail it. Well done!!!
Yes, very well said.

kniven
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Re: Class A

Post by kniven » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:17 pm

blueblood wrote:blah, blah, blah....

Can we put this one to rest please? Plante isn't going to change his ways.
So, from the feedback, Greenway is the 7A favorite this year to loose to Hermantown in the 7A final.

MWS coach
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Re: Class A

Post by MWS coach » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:13 pm

blueblood wrote:blah, blah, blah....

Can we put this one to rest please? Plante isn't going to change his ways.
Only one way to put this to rest, step up and play with the big boys at the end of the season, not just during the season! :lol:

Of course Plante isn't going to change his ways, that doesn't make it right...

Hermhawkey
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Post by Hermhawkey » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:24 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:I think you forgot about Parker Hawk, Dylan Samberg, Logan Judnick and Eric Gotz. They did not play Mites at Hermantown.

The climate has changed a lot since my kids played even. It's light years from 2005. Last year's Hermantown Squirt A team had kids from all over. Six different Associations according to my co-worker who had a kid on the team. Head coach from that team lives in Duluth. Assistant is from Proctor.

This aint your Father's Youth Hockey anymore. It's the reality, but would be nice if it was confined to AA. That's all anyone on here is saying.
To my knowledge, Hermantown hasn't allowed open enrollment in quite a few years. I have heard there is a waiting list but that is it. The new HS isn't any bigger. My son, a Hermantown sophomore, has played with the same players since mites with the exception of one move-in in pee wees. All but one on his Bantam AA team last year was here in mites.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Hermhawkey wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:I think you forgot about Parker Hawk, Dylan Samberg, Logan Judnick and Eric Gotz. They did not play Mites at Hermantown.

The climate has changed a lot since my kids played even. It's light years from 2005. Last year's Hermantown Squirt A team had kids from all over. Six different Associations according to my co-worker who had a kid on the team. Head coach from that team lives in Duluth. Assistant is from Proctor.

This aint your Father's Youth Hockey anymore. It's the reality, but would be nice if it was confined to AA. That's all anyone on here is saying.
To my knowledge, Hermantown hasn't allowed open enrollment in quite a few years. I have heard there is a waiting list but that is it. The new HS isn't any bigger. My son, a Hermantown sophomore, has played with the same players since mites with the exception of one move-in in pee wees. All but one on his Bantam AA team last year was here in mites.
That's not true. 23% of the entire student body is open-enrolled. The link to the News Tribune article quoting the Superintendent was posted on here last year when someone else tried to claim that. Top players from Proctor and Duluth have open-enrolled there each of the last four years at least.

Didn't your youngest son play on the PeeWee AA team last year? And you're saying you don't know where #14 from that team lives, or that he open-enrolled two years ago? And you know the Squirt A coach from last year very well since you've coached with him. His kid is open-enrolled and close to half of that team was last year. Don't take my word for it, shoot him a text and ask him.

It's an attractive program to parents of Hockey Players and that's something to be proud of. All anyone is saying is that it's not small-town hockey and shouldn't be in Class A. But this topic has been beaten to death.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:30 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
Hermhawkey wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:I think you forgot about Parker Hawk, Dylan Samberg, Logan Judnick and Eric Gotz. They did not play Mites at Hermantown.

The climate has changed a lot since my kids played even. It's light years from 2005. Last year's Hermantown Squirt A team had kids from all over. Six different Associations according to my co-worker who had a kid on the team. Head coach from that team lives in Duluth. Assistant is from Proctor.

This aint your Father's Youth Hockey anymore. It's the reality, but would be nice if it was confined to AA. That's all anyone on here is saying.
To my knowledge, Hermantown hasn't allowed open enrollment in quite a few years. I have heard there is a waiting list but that is it. The new HS isn't any bigger. My son, a Hermantown sophomore, has played with the same players since mites with the exception of one move-in in pee wees. All but one on his Bantam AA team last year was here in mites.
That's not true. 23% of the entire student body is open-enrolled. The link to the News Tribune article quoting the Superintendent was posted on here last year when someone else tried to claim that. Top players from Proctor and Duluth have open-enrolled there each of the last four years at least.

Didn't your youngest son play on the PeeWee AA team last year? And you're saying you don't know where #14 from that team lives, or that he open-enrolled two years ago? And you know the Squirt A coach from last year very well since you've coached with him. His kid is open-enrolled and close to half of that team was last year. Don't take my word for it, shoot him a text and ask him.

It's an attractive program to parents of Hockey Players and that's something to be proud of. All anyone is saying is that it's not small-town hockey and shouldn't be in Class A. But this topic has been beaten to death.
Here is the link: http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/3 ... nt-numbers

It says 21% of Hermantown students are open-enrollees. I completely agree that it is great that they have built a program that attracts so much talent, and I also completely agree that they have outgrown single A hockey.
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:14 am

rainier wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
Hermhawkey wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:I think you forgot about Parker Hawk, Dylan Samberg, Logan Judnick and Eric Gotz. They did not play Mites at Hermantown.

The climate has changed a lot since my kids played even. It's light years from 2005. Last year's Hermantown Squirt A team had kids from all over. Six different Associations according to my co-worker who had a kid on the team. Head coach from that team lives in Duluth. Assistant is from Proctor.

This aint your Father's Youth Hockey anymore. It's the reality, but would be nice if it was confined to AA. That's all anyone on here is saying.
To my knowledge, Hermantown hasn't allowed open enrollment in quite a few years. I have heard there is a waiting list but that is it. The new HS isn't any bigger. My son, a Hermantown sophomore, has played with the same players since mites with the exception of one move-in in pee wees. All but one on his Bantam AA team last year was here in mites.
That's not true. 23% of the entire student body is open-enrolled. The link to the News Tribune article quoting the Superintendent was posted on here last year when someone else tried to claim that. Top players from Proctor and Duluth have open-enrolled there each of the last four years at least.

Didn't your youngest son play on the PeeWee AA team last year? And you're saying you don't know where #14 from that team lives, or that he open-enrolled two years ago? And you know the Squirt A coach from last year very well since you've coached with him. His kid is open-enrolled and close to half of that team was last year. Don't take my word for it, shoot him a text and ask him.

It's an attractive program to parents of Hockey Players and that's something to be proud of. All anyone is saying is that it's not small-town hockey and shouldn't be in Class A. But this topic has been beaten to death.
Here is the link: http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/3 ... nt-numbers

It says 21% of Hermantown students are open-enrollees. I completely agree that it is great that they have built a program that attracts so much talent, and I also completely agree that they have outgrown single A hockey.
Hermhawky already knew that. His PeeWee aged kid has played with open-enrollees every year and the team below his is loaded with them. He just wasn't counting on anyone knowing who he was on here. I don't know why people try to claim open-enrollment is closed there when they know it's not. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Hermhawkey
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Post by Hermhawkey » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:38 pm

I didn't have a son on the peewee AA last year.

Hermhawkey
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Post by Hermhawkey » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:58 pm

The article does state there is now a waiting list for most grades. People want their kids in this district primarily for the schools. Of the 20% that have successfully open enrolled I would bet few are even hockey players. Like I said, my sophomore has not seen any changes in who he has played with his entire youth hockey career. Same 40 or so kids. The exception was one move in. Plus, 2 have left for Marshall one moved to southern MN. I don't doubt we've had some open enroll at the younger levels. I don't blame them great schools and our sports programs are fantastic. Not rocket science.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:35 pm

Hermhawkey wrote:The article does state there is now a waiting list for most grades. People want their kids in this district primarily for the schools. Of the 20% that have successfully open enrolled I would bet few are even hockey players. Like I said, my sophomore has not seen any changes in who he has played with his entire youth hockey career. Same 40 or so kids. The exception was one move in. Plus, 2 have left for Marshall one moved to southern MN. I don't doubt we've had some open enroll at the younger levels. I don't blame them great schools and our sports programs are fantastic. Not rocket science.
That's great he has played with the same kids throughout, but if they open enrolled from Proctor, Duluth, etc. even as 6 year olds, that's still open enrollment, and not small town hockey.

The point is that people see names like Aamodt, Gotz, Judnick, Samberg, Watkins, Hawk, etc. and they realize these players are either open enrollees or move-ins. They attract talent at levels that are not realistic for most A programs, and while it is true they are attracted because the program is very good, it is equally as true that it is made possible by being a suburb in a metro area of 150,000 people.

When you add to this the fantastic success they've already had in A and combine that with the fact that the youth teams continue to compete just fine with the best AA programs, then it becomes pretty clear that this program is about collecting banners and trophies at the single A level in HS, and not about providing the players with a level of of competition that most closely matches their abilities.
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

BP
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Post by BP » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:37 pm

My whole point is....if you can win the whole thing in AA, why would you not go up and play in the big tourney. They legitimately could've won AA last year and could again this year. I'll never understand that

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:43 pm

Hermhawkey wrote:I didn't have a son on the peewee AA last year.
Okay, I'm not going to argue with you on a message board. We can all be whoever we want to be on here. Either way you've posted that you have two kids in the Program so you know very well about all of the open-enrollees that play hockey in Hermantown. Please refer to the Newspaper article posted on this thread if you still claim that, "Hermantown hasn't allowed open-enrollment in many years." They've always allowed it and continue to allow it, unless of course the Superintendent of Hermantown schools is making it up. :roll:

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