MAML Enrollment
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AA St. Francis and AA Cambridge combined last season and only had two bantam teams combined.. And the median home income of the school districts is way down from MAML's.
They had a 6-1-1 record against AA teams that included their former 8AA opponents.
Cambridge and St Francis have many smaller towns that are included in their hockey program area.. The big difference is that these towns don't have their own high schools.. Big advantage for getting all around athletes!
The mshsl had so many better options to gain a little more success in class A... Not an instant title contender..
They had a 6-1-1 record against AA teams that included their former 8AA opponents.
Cambridge and St Francis have many smaller towns that are included in their hockey program area.. The big difference is that these towns don't have their own high schools.. Big advantage for getting all around athletes!
The mshsl had so many better options to gain a little more success in class A... Not an instant title contender..
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You are the one constantly running on about HT getting players from other associations. And i countered with direct examples of the many we lose. Every time you bring up HT(almost every post) you attempt to push an agenda. If you are an East fan the last thing you want is for us to move up. Be careful what you wish for.Jeffy95 wrote:They had 16 skaters, not enough to field two teams. But you're off topic again. It's about MAML's enrollment vs. youth numbers. Enrollment of 1900 similar to East and both with 3 PeeWee teams. I used Hermantown and their 650 enrollment with 4 PeeWee teams as an example of how player movement renders enrollment obsolete. Back on topic please.Hermhawkey wrote:East had 3 pee wee teams because the B team took over 20 skaters and 2 goalies. Our B teams each had 10 skaters exactly and 1 goalie. Nice try.
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I believe there are eight Class A teams that have coops where their enrollment should put them in Class AA, but who were allowed to opt down to Class A.
Le Sueur-Henderson St Peter TCU Cleveland
Minneapolis Novas
Minnehaha (with DeLaSalle, St Agnes and St Croix Lutheran)
Highland (Central)
Johnson (Como Park)
Becker Big Lake
MAML
Rocori (eight schools, biggest of which is Rocori)
Very few of these teams would be able to compete in AA. I'm not sure about LSHSPTCU right now, but a few years back they were initially assigned to Section 2AA before adjustments were made. Highland was on its own and a legitimate Class A team until this year when the Como/Central Coop folded, and same with Johnson. Rocori and MAML competed (or attempted to compete) at AA until the most recent realignment, and Becker Big Lake also used to be AA. I don't really have a problem with it. It seems to make sense based on strength of program, but given MAML's success this year, I would be inclined to send them back to AA, if not with the next cycle (to be announced at the end of this month) then, if they have sustained success in Class A, with the next one.
Le Sueur-Henderson St Peter TCU Cleveland
Minneapolis Novas
Minnehaha (with DeLaSalle, St Agnes and St Croix Lutheran)
Highland (Central)
Johnson (Como Park)
Becker Big Lake
MAML
Rocori (eight schools, biggest of which is Rocori)
Very few of these teams would be able to compete in AA. I'm not sure about LSHSPTCU right now, but a few years back they were initially assigned to Section 2AA before adjustments were made. Highland was on its own and a legitimate Class A team until this year when the Como/Central Coop folded, and same with Johnson. Rocori and MAML competed (or attempted to compete) at AA until the most recent realignment, and Becker Big Lake also used to be AA. I don't really have a problem with it. It seems to make sense based on strength of program, but given MAML's success this year, I would be inclined to send them back to AA, if not with the next cycle (to be announced at the end of this month) then, if they have sustained success in Class A, with the next one.
You are well aware of all the kids you have from other associations so don't play dumb. Hermantown moving up is exactly what I and everyone else in the section wants. Then we can boot a Twin Cities team out of 7AA. Then Hibbing or Greenway can have a chance to go to State and build up their programs and kick a couple more out. The goal would be an all North Section. See how that works? There is no defending Hermantown's sandbagging anymore. Maybe after the first 3-4 Championship games but that ship sailed long ago. Does anyone in that town have a set?Hermhawkey wrote:You are the one constantly running on about HT getting players from other associations. And i countered with direct examples of the many we lose. Every time you bring up HT(almost every post) you attempt to push an agenda. If you are an East fan the last thing you want is for us to move up. Be careful what you wish for.Jeffy95 wrote:They had 16 skaters, not enough to field two teams. But you're off topic again. It's about MAML's enrollment vs. youth numbers. Enrollment of 1900 similar to East and both with 3 PeeWee teams. I used Hermantown and their 650 enrollment with 4 PeeWee teams as an example of how player movement renders enrollment obsolete. Back on topic please.Hermhawkey wrote:East had 3 pee wee teams because the B team took over 20 skaters and 2 goalies. Our B teams each had 10 skaters exactly and 1 goalie. Nice try.
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Doesn't petitioning down kind of ruin the point of a two class system based on enrollment? I'm surprised the MSHSL allows this.[/quote]One could say the same thing about opting up, couldn't they?
If I'm not mistaken, the vast majority of co-ops where all individual schools are under the enrollment number are in Class A...[/quote]
I would say no you couldn't say that. My understanding of the A/AA split was that it was done to give more small town programs a chance to compete in a state tournament. So if a small program moves up and takes a larger programs spot at the state tournament this hasn't ruined the objective of the A/AA split. But if a large school moves down it has. If the MSHSL just wanted more teams in the tournament they could have made it a 16 team tournament for everyone regardless of enrollment. So to me allowing teams to petition down ruins the point. Personally I have no horse in this race as I could care less who goes to the A tournament. Really it just makes the A/AA split more of a joke. As to all of the Hermantown discussion on here. Who cares? If they don't want to play in the real state tournament that's their problem.
If I'm not mistaken, the vast majority of co-ops where all individual schools are under the enrollment number are in Class A...[/quote]
I would say no you couldn't say that. My understanding of the A/AA split was that it was done to give more small town programs a chance to compete in a state tournament. So if a small program moves up and takes a larger programs spot at the state tournament this hasn't ruined the objective of the A/AA split. But if a large school moves down it has. If the MSHSL just wanted more teams in the tournament they could have made it a 16 team tournament for everyone regardless of enrollment. So to me allowing teams to petition down ruins the point. Personally I have no horse in this race as I could care less who goes to the A tournament. Really it just makes the A/AA split more of a joke. As to all of the Hermantown discussion on here. Who cares? If they don't want to play in the real state tournament that's their problem.
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The question I never seem to get an answer to:
What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
If I'm not mistaken, the vast majority of co-ops where all individual schools are under the enrollment number are in Class A...[/quote]
I would say no you couldn't say that. My understanding of the A/AA split was that it was done to give more small town programs a chance to compete in a state tournament. So if a small program moves up and takes a larger programs spot at the state tournament this hasn't ruined the objective of the A/AA split. But if a large school moves down it has. If the MSHSL just wanted more teams in the tournament they could have made it a 16 team tournament for everyone regardless of enrollment. So to me allowing teams to petition down ruins the point. Personally I have no horse in this race as I could care less who goes to the A tournament. Really it just makes the A/AA split more of a joke. As to all of the Hermantown discussion on here. Who cares? If they don't want to play in the real state tournament that's their problem.[/quote]The issue is that every (that I'm aware of, I may be wrong) program that has "opted" down is a co-op program made up entirely of Class A programs that are all co-oping to be able to field a team. A team like Osseo is the exception, where Osseo is a AA team but co-ops so that players at another school can play hockey. In every (again, I may be mistaken, there may be another) other situation [aside from Minneapolis with SW] is Class A teams all banding together to be able to field a team. Earlier in the year I went through all of the numbers and found that there is one co-oped team made up of non-AA teams playing in AA and around 8 or 9 playing in Class A; hockeydad brought those up.
From my vantage point, this issue is a lot like the private school issue; they can be in Class A as long as they aren't good but if they have success they need to be in AA.
A co-op of 3 teams who've all never been to state before just beat the #2 seeded team in state; why can't that be celebrated?
What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
One could say the same thing about opting up, couldn't they?7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Doesn't petitioning down kind of ruin the point of a two class system based on enrollment? I'm surprised the MSHSL allows this.
If I'm not mistaken, the vast majority of co-ops where all individual schools are under the enrollment number are in Class A...[/quote]
I would say no you couldn't say that. My understanding of the A/AA split was that it was done to give more small town programs a chance to compete in a state tournament. So if a small program moves up and takes a larger programs spot at the state tournament this hasn't ruined the objective of the A/AA split. But if a large school moves down it has. If the MSHSL just wanted more teams in the tournament they could have made it a 16 team tournament for everyone regardless of enrollment. So to me allowing teams to petition down ruins the point. Personally I have no horse in this race as I could care less who goes to the A tournament. Really it just makes the A/AA split more of a joke. As to all of the Hermantown discussion on here. Who cares? If they don't want to play in the real state tournament that's their problem.[/quote]The issue is that every (that I'm aware of, I may be wrong) program that has "opted" down is a co-op program made up entirely of Class A programs that are all co-oping to be able to field a team. A team like Osseo is the exception, where Osseo is a AA team but co-ops so that players at another school can play hockey. In every (again, I may be mistaken, there may be another) other situation [aside from Minneapolis with SW] is Class A teams all banding together to be able to field a team. Earlier in the year I went through all of the numbers and found that there is one co-oped team made up of non-AA teams playing in AA and around 8 or 9 playing in Class A; hockeydad brought those up.
From my vantage point, this issue is a lot like the private school issue; they can be in Class A as long as they aren't good but if they have success they need to be in AA.
A co-op of 3 teams who've all never been to state before just beat the #2 seeded team in state; why can't that be celebrated?
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Like I said I don't really care who plays in the A state tournament(Eden Prairie could go play there and I wouldn't care), but your argument still doesn't make sense. What is the difference between a coop school with combined enrollment of say 2000 and 30 available players and one school with an enrollment of 2000 and 30 available players? Should that school then be allowed to opt down as well? The whole two class system is a joke and allowing schools to opt down makes it even more so. Look at a program like Brainerd. They haven't been to a state tournament in decades(not sure when the last one was if ever). Are those kids less deserving of a state tournament trip than say MAML? Whenever you split classes like this there will be winners and losers. That's why it should just be one class and expand it to more teams if they have to involve more kids. Any other way to do it is foolish,
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A post that is totally filled with common sense!!7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Like I said I don't really care who plays in the A state tournament(Eden Prairie could go play there and I wouldn't care), but your argument still doesn't make sense. What is the difference between a coop school with combined enrollment of say 2000 and 30 available players and one school with an enrollment of 2000 and 30 available players? Should that school then be allowed to opt down as well? The whole two class system is a joke and allowing schools to opt down makes it even more so. Look at a program like Brainerd. They haven't been to a state tournament in decades(not sure when the last one was if ever). Are those kids less deserving of a state tournament trip than say MAML? Whenever you split classes like this there will be winners and losers. That's why it should just be one class and expand it to more teams if they have to involve more kids. Any other way to do it is foolish,
Another two schools that are able to form their own football teams.. Is nothing other than an advantage!
Crickets..
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Re: MAML Enrollment
Which AA school should be/wants to be A instead of the Moose?7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Just something I am curious on. It seems as though MAML has the enrollment to be a AA school but plays A. Am I missing something here?
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Re: MAML Enrollment
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think anybody has to move to A if the moose had stayed in AA. Just like I don't believe anybody moved up just because they moved down. Not sure on that but it's besides the point, which is the current A/AA system does a disservice to MN hockey. It's a product of the participation medal culture.Browniemagoo wrote:Which AA school should be/wants to be A instead of the Moose?7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Just something I am curious on. It seems as though MAML has the enrollment to be a AA school but plays A. Am I missing something here?
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MAML's coop was formed in 2001. From 2002-2015 (2001 they were in 6AA) they were outscored by 8AA opponents 148-6 in quarterfinal games per pagestat website. Obviously never winning a game and most cases blowouts.
There youth numbers are average usually fielding 2-3 teams per level while playing A and B schedules. No AA. The varsity/jv has 5 kids from A-ML out of the 35. The youth assc is about the same ratio.
Class A is exactly where MAML should be. Don't kid yourself.
There youth numbers are average usually fielding 2-3 teams per level while playing A and B schedules. No AA. The varsity/jv has 5 kids from A-ML out of the 35. The youth assc is about the same ratio.
Class A is exactly where MAML should be. Don't kid yourself.
Just curious,StarsHockey wrote:MAML's coop was formed in 2001. From 2002-2015 (2001 they were in 6AA) they were outscored by 8AA opponents 148-6 in quarterfinal games per pagestat website. Obviously never winning a game and most cases blowouts.
There youth numbers are average usually fielding 2-3 teams per level while playing A and B schedules. No AA. The varsity/jv has 5 kids from A-ML out of the 35. The youth assc is about the same ratio.
Class A is exactly where MAML should be. Don't kid yourself.
Based on what criteria?
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But a lot of schools can say at least some of that.StarsHockey wrote:Based on getting their teeth kicked in for 14 years in AA, based on average youth numbers, based on how many kids they are actually pulling from A-ML and finally based on that I actually had to use a calculator to add their opponents scores from those years!
There are plenty of small schools that get pounded on a regular basis but have no where to go.
They only pull a kid or two from the other schools but yet they pull a kid or two from other schools.
Not blaming MAML or others but how do explain their size to the Bagleys of the world.
I am happy they are having success this year but you have your success then move up. That's what some are telling Hermantown.
MSHSL needs to look at what they are doing and decide on what it is they are trying to accomplish and the make rules that work.
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StarsHockey, read the info above.MrBoDangles wrote:AA St. Francis and AA Cambridge combined last season and only had two bantam teams combined.. And the median home income of the school districts is way down from MAML's.
They had a 6-1-1 record against AA teams that included their former 8AA opponents.
Cambridge and St Francis have many smaller towns that are included in their hockey program area.. The big difference is that these towns don't have their own high schools.. Big advantage for getting all around athletes!
The mshsl had so many better options to gain a little more success in class A... Not an instant title contender..
Ask these programs and many others how they've done in sections.. MAML is hardly a down on their luck rural or urban area like the other huge co-ops.
Just enjoy your instant placement to 2nd... or 1st in the class A State Tourney.
Let me ask you this question: How would Monticello have done with just their 1115 kids this season? Their actual - legit A team?
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Co-op or no co-op, there are lots of AA schools that get their butts kicked every year in the 1st round of sections but are there due to enrollment sizes. If MAML is allowed to opt down due to competitive disadvantage, why not St Francis, Dodge County, Coon Rapids, N St Paul, Shakopee, East Ridge to name a few?
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They won a quarterfinal game on their first trip to state. Not like we are dealing with a perennial powerhouse where this discussion is even necessary.elliott70 wrote:But a lot of schools can say at least some of that.StarsHockey wrote:Based on getting their teeth kicked in for 14 years in AA, based on average youth numbers, based on how many kids they are actually pulling from A-ML and finally based on that I actually had to use a calculator to add their opponents scores from those years!
There are plenty of small schools that get pounded on a regular basis but have no where to go.
They only pull a kid or two from the other schools but yet they pull a kid or two from other schools.
Not blaming MAML or others but how do explain their size to the Bagleys of the world.
I am happy they are having success this year but you have your success then move up. That's what some are telling Hermantown.
MSHSL needs to look at what they are doing and decide on what it is they are trying to accomplish and the make rules that work.
If they are told they have to move up, what's to stop them from just dumping the co-op and staying at A? Most of the players are from Monticello anyways. I can guarantee LDC isn't taking on the numbers and moving to AA.. Where would you like these kids to play then? I suppose Buffalo is an option but I believe they have quite a few kids in their program already. Funny no one complains about Becker/Big Lake enrollment numbers when they are beating them by 10 goals. God forbid they start winning and we have to have this conversation again.
Bob Vance, Vance Refrigeration
I think some of us are 'complaining' (perhaps questioning) the system.GoldyGopher wrote:They won a quarterfinal game on their first trip to state. Not like we are dealing with a perennial powerhouse where this discussion is even necessary.elliott70 wrote:But a lot of schools can say at least some of that.StarsHockey wrote:Based on getting their teeth kicked in for 14 years in AA, based on average youth numbers, based on how many kids they are actually pulling from A-ML and finally based on that I actually had to use a calculator to add their opponents scores from those years!
There are plenty of small schools that get pounded on a regular basis but have no where to go.
They only pull a kid or two from the other schools but yet they pull a kid or two from other schools.
Not blaming MAML or others but how do explain their size to the Bagleys of the world.
I am happy they are having success this year but you have your success then move up. That's what some are telling Hermantown.
MSHSL needs to look at what they are doing and decide on what it is they are trying to accomplish and the make rules that work.
If they are told they have to move up, what's to stop them from just dumping the co-op and staying at A? Most of the players are from Monticello anyways. I can guarantee LDC isn't taking on the numbers and moving to AA.. Where would you like these kids to play then? I suppose Buffalo is an option but I believe they have quite a few kids in their program already. Funny no one complains about Becker/Big Lake enrollment numbers when they are beating them by 10 goals. God forbid they start winning and we have to have this conversation again.
For some of us, it is not MAML but any of the teams that are playing down because they cannot compete. Again for some of us, that is not valid. Compete does not mean win but to be allowed on the field of play. Everyone has that opportunity and the opportunity to participate in post season.
There are teams that play up and seldom get to section finals let alone the X. There are plenty of A level teams that never (seldom) win a game in play-offs. Winning, losing getting thumped should not be the criteria.
If it is then we need AAA and B level so everyone gets a shot at winning at some point.
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Yes! "Dump" the co-op and do things legit without the help of Ward and the two others that are among their top 6 scorers.GoldyGopher wrote:They won a quarterfinal game on their first trip to state. Not like we are dealing with a perennial powerhouse where this discussion is even necessary.elliott70 wrote:But a lot of schools can say at least some of that.StarsHockey wrote:Based on getting their teeth kicked in for 14 years in AA, based on average youth numbers, based on how many kids they are actually pulling from A-ML and finally based on that I actually had to use a calculator to add their opponents scores from those years!
There are plenty of small schools that get pounded on a regular basis but have no where to go.
They only pull a kid or two from the other schools but yet they pull a kid or two from other schools.
Not blaming MAML or others but how do explain their size to the Bagleys of the world.
I am happy they are having success this year but you have your success then move up. That's what some are telling Hermantown.
MSHSL needs to look at what they are doing and decide on what it is they are trying to accomplish and the make rules that work.
If they are told they have to move up, what's to stop them from just dumping the co-op and staying at A? Most of the players are from Monticello anyways. I can guarantee LDC isn't taking on the numbers and moving to AA.. Where would you like these kids to play then? I suppose Buffalo is an option but I believe they have quite a few kids in their program already. Funny no one complains about Becker/Big Lake enrollment numbers when they are beating them by 10 goals. God forbid they start winning and we have to have this conversation again.
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Whats stopping them? Losing there best player for one.GoldyGopher wrote:They won a quarterfinal game on their first trip to state. Not like we are dealing with a perennial powerhouse where this discussion is even necessary.elliott70 wrote:But a lot of schools can say at least some of that.StarsHockey wrote:Based on getting their teeth kicked in for 14 years in AA, based on average youth numbers, based on how many kids they are actually pulling from A-ML and finally based on that I actually had to use a calculator to add their opponents scores from those years!
There are plenty of small schools that get pounded on a regular basis but have no where to go.
They only pull a kid or two from the other schools but yet they pull a kid or two from other schools.
Not blaming MAML or others but how do explain their size to the Bagleys of the world.
I am happy they are having success this year but you have your success then move up. That's what some are telling Hermantown.
MSHSL needs to look at what they are doing and decide on what it is they are trying to accomplish and the make rules that work.
If they are told they have to move up, what's to stop them from just dumping the co-op and staying at A? Most of the players are from Monticello anyways. I can guarantee LDC isn't taking on the numbers and moving to AA.. Where would you like these kids to play then? I suppose Buffalo is an option but I believe they have quite a few kids in their program already. Funny no one complains about Becker/Big Lake enrollment numbers when they are beating them by 10 goals. God forbid they start winning and we have to have this conversation again.