MAML Enrollment

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jpiehl
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Post by jpiehl » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:18 pm

If the logic of playing down is that they can't compete with AA programs, then why did they remain in a primarily AA conference? Not difficult for a team to leave their conference for a lesser one. The group of juniors and seniors has been very successful through youth, including the youth state tournament.

Teak
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Post by Teak » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:39 pm

One way to solve this would be to take the example of European futbol leagues where they have promotion and relegation between upper and lower leagues.

Thus the A school that wins the State A title in a given year would get "promoted" to their closest AA section for the sectional tournament in the following season. They would get replaced by an AA school that had the worst record in that section which would move down (get "relegated") to the equivalent A section for sectional play at tourney time.

This is a "merit-based" system that determines class by results, not by less tangible things like student enrollment or association numbers.

I suspect that once Hermantown got promoted, they would never return to A since I couldn't see them having a worse record in AA than any other AA school.

<Ducking and running for cover>

:idea:

GoldyGopher
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Post by GoldyGopher » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:57 pm

Teak wrote:One way to solve this would be to take the example of European futbol leagues where they have promotion and relegation between upper and lower leagues.

Thus the A school that wins the State A title in a given year would get "promoted" to their closest AA section for the sectional tournament in the following season. They would get replaced by an AA school that had the worst record in that section which would move down (get "relegated") to the equivalent A section for sectional play at tourney time.

This is a "merit-based" system that determines class by results, not by less tangible things like student enrollment or association numbers.

I suspect that once Hermantown got promoted, they would never return to A since I couldn't see them having a worse record in AA than any other AA school.

<Ducking and running for cover>

:idea:
Ha! Love it!
Bob Vance, Vance Refrigeration

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:41 am

What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Like I said I don't really care who plays in the A state tournament(Eden Prairie could go play there and I wouldn't care), but your argument still doesn't make sense. What is the difference between a coop school with combined enrollment of say 2000 and 30 available players and one school with an enrollment of 2000 and 30 available players? Should that school then be allowed to opt down as well? The whole two class system is a joke and allowing schools to opt down makes it even more so. Look at a program like Brainerd. They haven't been to a state tournament in decades(not sure when the last one was if ever). Are those kids less deserving of a state tournament trip than say MAML? Whenever you split classes like this there will be winners and losers. That's why it should just be one class and expand it to more teams if they have to involve more kids. Any other way to do it is foolish,
Was this comment directed at me? My opinion is that hockey classes should be done by something other than school size because, as we hear all the time, "hockey's different" for a multitude of reasons. I don't know if this information can be public or not, but I would like to see something like "number of players who tried out" or "number of players playing organized hockey" used. A system like this would "solve" the private school issue that people complain about and would level the playing field.

The follow up that makes it feel much like the private school issue:
Where is the uproar about the other co-op schools in Class A?
Virtually no one cares about Rocorri or Le Sueur-Henderson St Peter TCU Clevelandplaying in Class A. Monticello was the butt of so many jokes for years. Now they're playing in the class the home program is, they have a shot at sections and people suddenly care? Come on.
Green and White Fan wrote:The question I have is how long does the MSHSL allow teams like MAML to play in the wrong class? Someone has mentioned on here that enrollment doesn't matter. That is true for privates and if we want to get into the "recruiting" issue then it doesn't matter for a few schools that do that, but don't be silly and say enrollment doesn't matter especially with established programs. If it didn't, then why isn't Baudette able to win Section 8A on occasion and heck if it doesn't matter, why doesn't their 20 varsity players beat up on Moorheads 60 or more potential varsity players?? Is the opt up/opt down available to schools in other sports? Maybe it is time for the high school league to make schools play where they belong by size. At some point it would take some of the appeal of the privates away. If they were not allowed to compete in AA some kids would maybe stay in their association instead of going there. No situation will be good for everyone. As Elliot mentioned maybe then we need more classes, but I do not get allowing teams to opt down. There are plenty of Class A programs that will never see a state tournament, so why a AA program gets to move down because they have trouble making a state tournament is somewhat baffling.
Yes, but it is rarely used. Winning in a lower class also doesn't have the stigma that it does in hockey.

The years Henry won 4 AAA state titles in basketball they were thought of as the best team in state, similar to Brenham for the run they had in AA; they were looked at as the best or one of the best. The years Totino had in football before opting up they were looked at by many in the game as the best team, but with little pressure to opt up. The years Becker, GSL, Triton and many other small schools were dominant in their respective classes with no calls to opt up. The lists go on.

I've discussed other teams from around the country who have been considered a top team in the country and weren't even in the top class in their state. The ability to change classes in many other states is unheard of.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:28 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Like I said I don't really care who plays in the A state tournament(Eden Prairie could go play there and I wouldn't care), but your argument still doesn't make sense. What is the difference between a coop school with combined enrollment of say 2000 and 30 available players and one school with an enrollment of 2000 and 30 available players? Should that school then be allowed to opt down as well? The whole two class system is a joke and allowing schools to opt down makes it even more so. Look at a program like Brainerd. They haven't been to a state tournament in decades(not sure when the last one was if ever). Are those kids less deserving of a state tournament trip than say MAML? Whenever you split classes like this there will be winners and losers. That's why it should just be one class and expand it to more teams if they have to involve more kids. Any other way to do it is foolish,
Was this comment directed at me? My opinion is that hockey classes should be done by something other than school size because, as we hear all the time, "hockey's different" for a multitude of reasons. I don't know if this information can be public or not, but I would like to see something like "number of players who tried out" or "number of players playing organized hockey" used. A system like this would "solve" the private school issue that people complain about and would level the playing field.

The follow up that makes it feel much like the private school issue:
Where is the uproar about the other co-op schools in Class A?
Virtually no one cares about Rocorri or Le Sueur-Henderson St Peter TCU Clevelandplaying in Class A. Monticello was the butt of so many jokes for years. Now they're playing in the class the home program is, they have a shot at sections and people suddenly care? Come on.
Green and White Fan wrote:The question I have is how long does the MSHSL allow teams like MAML to play in the wrong class? Someone has mentioned on here that enrollment doesn't matter. That is true for privates and if we want to get into the "recruiting" issue then it doesn't matter for a few schools that do that, but don't be silly and say enrollment doesn't matter especially with established programs. If it didn't, then why isn't Baudette able to win Section 8A on occasion and heck if it doesn't matter, why doesn't their 20 varsity players beat up on Moorheads 60 or more potential varsity players?? Is the opt up/opt down available to schools in other sports? Maybe it is time for the high school league to make schools play where they belong by size. At some point it would take some of the appeal of the privates away. If they were not allowed to compete in AA some kids would maybe stay in their association instead of going there. No situation will be good for everyone. As Elliot mentioned maybe then we need more classes, but I do not get allowing teams to opt down. There are plenty of Class A programs that will never see a state tournament, so why a AA program gets to move down because they have trouble making a state tournament is somewhat baffling.
Yes, but it is rarely used. Winning in a lower class also doesn't have the stigma that it does in hockey.

The years Henry won 4 AAA state titles in basketball they were thought of as the best team in state, similar to Brenham for the run they had in AA; they were looked at as the best or one of the best. The years Totino had in football before opting up they were looked at by many in the game as the best team, but with little pressure to opt up. The years Becker, GSL, Triton and many other small schools were dominant in their respective classes with no calls to opt up. The lists go on.

I've discussed other teams from around the country who have been considered a top team in the country and weren't even in the top class in their state. The ability to change classes in many other states is unheard of.
Enough with the odyssey of the mind crud.. They knew Becker/Big Lake and the Dodge County's were not going to be instant state contenders..

MAML posters have explained how they knew the talent coming through and how they pulled a fast one! They also had better records than some of their former 8AA opponents... And had higher enrollment numbers!

6-1-1 against AA teams with less student enrollment.. Many of those wins against their former 8AA foes.

Start a thread about Texas football, or Minnesota basketball, in the cafe.. Or something..
:roll:

zooomx
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Post by zooomx » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:01 am

Let's just do this:

2017- Move Hermantown up to AA due to being too good. Move MAML up because as the 14th ranked team in Class A they are too good. Class 5A should never have someone ranked in the top 20 in their section.

2018- State finalists Cathedral and Breck get moved up. Private schools, and you know, the too good thing.

2019- Delano is dominating, move them up. Blake stepped up their recruiting... move them up.

2020 - EGF has been to state 5 of 10 years... move them up, too good! SPA and Mahtomedi get moved up as they may win it all next year.

2021 - Alexandria, and Luverne each win a semifinal, gotta move them up.

2022- Princeton gets moved into another section and "runs the gauntlet" of mediocre teams. Faces North Branch in the state tournament. Yeah! What an accomplishment. Woo hoo!

As someone posted a while back: If you don't like losing, then make your program better. That's it. Endless whining on the forums, month after month after month accomplishes nothing. Is MAML a good team? Yes. But there are 20-25 other A teams that have an excellent chance in beating them when they meet on the ice. They are simply not good enough for the amount of angst being tossed around about it.

I almost get the angst on Hermantown, but if they were AA, I would have never had the pleasure to watch Luverne scare the crap out or them on Wednesday. My Bold Prediction: There are other A programs that are getting stronger and stronger and if Hermantown stays at A, I think they will find the gap is going to close on them pretty quick. The Greenways and Hibbings of the world are just as good, if not better than, Luverne. Keep getting better and knock Hermantown on their ass. That is the mentality that is missing.

7TIMECHAMPS
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Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:13 am

zooomx wrote:Let's just do this:

2017- Move Hermantown up to AA due to being too good. Move MAML up because as the 14th ranked team in Class A they are too good. Class 5A should never have someone ranked in the top 20 in their section.

2018- State finalists Cathedral and Breck get moved up. Private schools, and you know, the too good thing.

2019- Delano is dominating, move them up. Blake stepped up their recruiting... move them up.

2020 - EGF has been to state 5 of 10 years... move them up, too good! SPA and Mahtomedi get moved up as they may win it all next year.

2021 - Alexandria, and Luverne each win a semifinal, gotta move them up.

2022- Princeton gets moved into another section and "runs the gauntlet" of mediocre teams. Faces North Branch in the state tournament. Yeah! What an accomplishment. Woo hoo!

As someone posted a while back: If you don't like losing, then make your program better. That's it. Endless whining on the forums, month after month after month accomplishes nothing. Is MAML a good team? Yes. But there are 20-25 other A teams that have an excellent chance in beating them when they meet on the ice. They are simply not good enough for the amount of angst being tossed around about it.

I almost get the angst on Hermantown, but if they were AA, I would have never had the pleasure to watch Luverne scare the crap out or them on Wednesday. My Bold Prediction: There are other A programs that are getting stronger and stronger and if Hermantown stays at A, I think they will find the gap is going to close on them pretty quick. The Greenways and Hibbings of the world are just as good, if not better than, Luverne. Keep getting better and knock Hermantown on their ass. That is the mentality that is missing
I have said that it doesn't really matter to me that MAML made the class A tournament this year, but the flaw in your statement is too glaring for me to ignore so I'm going to point it out. Where was the get better so you can knock them on their ass mentality with MAML when they were in AA? Or does this mentality only apply to whiny A schools and not whiny AA schools that opt down? Why couldn't MAML make their program better and beat the AA schools?

zooomx
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Post by zooomx » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:34 am

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
zooomx wrote:Let's just do this:

2017- Move Hermantown up to AA due to being too good. Move MAML up because as the 14th ranked team in Class A they are too good. Class 5A should never have someone ranked in the top 20 in their section.

2018- State finalists Cathedral and Breck get moved up. Private schools, and you know, the too good thing.

2019- Delano is dominating, move them up. Blake stepped up their recruiting... move them up.

2020 - EGF has been to state 5 of 10 years... move them up, too good! SPA and Mahtomedi get moved up as they may win it all next year.

2021 - Alexandria, and Luverne each win a semifinal, gotta move them up.

2022- Princeton gets moved into another section and "runs the gauntlet" of mediocre teams. Faces North Branch in the state tournament. Yeah! What an accomplishment. Woo hoo!

As someone posted a while back: If you don't like losing, then make your program better. That's it. Endless whining on the forums, month after month after month accomplishes nothing. Is MAML a good team? Yes. But there are 20-25 other A teams that have an excellent chance in beating them when they meet on the ice. They are simply not good enough for the amount of angst being tossed around about it.

I almost get the angst on Hermantown, but if they were AA, I would have never had the pleasure to watch Luverne scare the crap out or them on Wednesday. My Bold Prediction: There are other A programs that are getting stronger and stronger and if Hermantown stays at A, I think they will find the gap is going to close on them pretty quick. The Greenways and Hibbings of the world are just as good, if not better than, Luverne. Keep getting better and knock Hermantown on their ass. That is the mentality that is missing
I have said that it doesn't really matter to me that MAML made the class A tournament this year, but the flaw in your statement is too glaring for me to ignore so I'm going to point it out. Where was the get better so you can knock them on their ass mentality with MAML when they were in AA? Or does this mentality only apply to whiny A schools and not whiny AA schools that opt down? Why couldn't MAML make their program better and beat the AA schools?
Excellent point, and not one I would argue with. My point is that the MSHSL agreed to move them down and there is nothing the rest of us can do about it. I personally do not want a watered down Class A field. Should the big time privates move up? Probably. Would I have moved MAML down? Maybe not. Should Cambridge/St Francis have been moved down before MAML? Probably. But I don't really know the criteria that the MSHSL truly considers. As teams get moved up into AA, teams move down to A. Should MSHSL set up Class A so that every mediocre small town team has a realistic chance to win it all? No.

My other point is that eventually, if Hermantown moves up, someone else will be in the crosshairs of the complainers and the top teams will always be screamed at to "move up". From what I read on this forum, MAML has this one year to do some damage in Class A, and then drops a bit in talent. This "one year magical" team was ranked 14th going into the tournament. If they were in most other Class A sections they would not have made the tournament. They are not the juggernaut that they are being portrayed as. They were the clear underdog against Delano and pulled off a great upset. Fun game to watch. In fact, all the Class A quarterfinal games were hard fought battles and that is good for hockey.

The Class A field is closing the gap and is getting stronger every year. I personally don't think the system is broken.

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:19 am

What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?

Goldy Gopher
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Post by Goldy Gopher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:21 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
A co-op is created.
The U invented swagger.

Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:53 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
If it was that important, wouldn't you open enroll or move to a community that has the sport?

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:53 am

Goldy Gopher wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
A co-op is created.
Or you open enroll elsewhere.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:59 am

Trying to get a better understanding on this; I read the MSHAL rules on classifying teams.

Not knowing all the facts of MAML I have made some assumptions; school size of the 3 schools puts them in AA, somehow they managed to be placed in single A. The only way that happens is if they appeal. Appeal is granted based on the number of free and reduced meals are offered at the schools.
This has to be 50%. Again I don't know enough about the area (only what I see in driving by), but I have to assume MSHSL does know and therefore an appeal to play down was given based on them being in an area where the students receive free etc lunches.

On the surface it appears hard to believe, but it is only thing that adds up.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:28 am

The coach tried to get him (honza)in the USHL?

Anybody catch what they said?

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:35 am

elliott70 wrote:
Goldy Gopher wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
A co-op is created.
Or you open enroll elsewhere.
Isn't that exactly the opposite of what we want kids to be doing? We don't want them to be transferring to another school for sports, we want them to be staying at their community's school.

So, you've grown up playing soccer and baseball with your friends, have lived in your city your whole life and you're a skier, but your school doesn't have an alpine (or nordic) team; you want this kid to uproot themselves and open enroll at another school so they can ski?
Or pick whatever example you want. It happens with non-sports as well.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:42 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
Goldy Gopher wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a sport you want to participate in and isn't co-oped with another school for that sport?
A co-op is created.
Or you open enroll elsewhere.
Isn't that exactly the opposite of what we want kids to be doing? We don't want them to be transferring to another school for sports, we want them to be staying at their community's school.

So, you've grown up playing soccer and baseball with your friends, have lived in your city your whole life and you're a skier, but your school doesn't have an alpine (or nordic) team; you want this kid to uproot themselves and open enroll at another school so they can ski?
Or pick whatever example you want. It happens with non-sports as well.
Not sure who 'we' are.
It seems to me that it is an individual (family) decision.
If you wan to ski in HS and your school does not have a program, you open enroll to a program that does have one.
Yes, I want that kid to make a decision that fits him. Not making everyone fit themselves to his choice.

But I am not the one making the decision.
I don't have a kid that is on or wants to be on the ski team.
But if I did, we would have he discussion. Unlike some spoiled little kids, the real world you don't get everything you want just because Daddy's money says so.

GoldyGopher
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Post by GoldyGopher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:46 am

MrBoDangles wrote:The coach tried to get him (honza)in the USHL?

Anybody catch what they said?
He's a 16 yr old senior.
Bob Vance, Vance Refrigeration

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:52 am

GoldyGopher wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:The coach tried to get him (honza)in the USHL?

Anybody catch what they said?
He's a 16 yr old senior.
I heard that part. I'll have to catch it later..

nahc
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Post by nahc » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:55 am

Elliott: Very much agree with all your comments....

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:00 pm

elliott70 wrote:Trying to get a better understanding on this; I read the MSHAL rules on classifying teams.

Not knowing all the facts of MAML I have made some assumptions; school size of the 3 schools puts them in AA, somehow they managed to be placed in single A. The only way that happens is if they appeal. Appeal is granted based on the number of free and reduced meals are offered at the schools.
This has to be 50%. Again I don't know enough about the area (only what I see in driving by), but I have to assume MSHSL does know and therefore an appeal to play down was given based on them being in an area where the students receive free etc lunches.

On the surface it appears hard to believe, but it is only thing that adds up.
Doesn't Marshall MN bump up to AA size via co-op (at least on the girls' side) and get granted a play down, as well. I don't think it is school lunch related, but rather a 'come on guys, really?' situation. Based on the price of my raspberry rumple, I would think they're below 50%.

Goldy Gopher
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Post by Goldy Gopher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:06 pm

Elliott can correct me if I'm wrong, but if the kid is unwilling to open enroll and still wants to participate in a particular sport, doesn't a co-op have to be formed? I find it hard to believe that the MSHSL would tell that kid that they simply cannot participate.
The U invented swagger.

defense
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Post by defense » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:20 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
elliott70 wrote:Trying to get a better understanding on this; I read the MSHAL rules on classifying teams.

Not knowing all the facts of MAML I have made some assumptions; school size of the 3 schools puts them in AA, somehow they managed to be placed in single A. The only way that happens is if they appeal. Appeal is granted based on the number of free and reduced meals are offered at the schools.
This has to be 50%. Again I don't know enough about the area (only what I see in driving by), but I have to assume MSHSL does know and therefore an appeal to play down was given based on them being in an area where the students receive free etc lunches.

On the surface it appears hard to believe, but it is only thing that adds up.
Doesn't Marshall MN bump up to AA size via co-op (at least on the girls' side) and get granted a play down, as well. I don't think it is school lunch related, but rather a 'come on guys, really?' situation. Based on the price of my raspberry rumple, I would think they're below 50%.
Being a parent of a middle schooler and high schooler ( non hockey players) I know that the schools actually kind of push all students to apply for reduced fee or free lunches. The case could be that a lot of people actually do this and it may inflate the numbers. More people than people would think actually can get reduced or free lunches, doesn't have to be a low income type area

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:34 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
elliott70 wrote:Trying to get a better understanding on this; I read the MSHAL rules on classifying teams.

Not knowing all the facts of MAML I have made some assumptions; school size of the 3 schools puts them in AA, somehow they managed to be placed in single A. The only way that happens is if they appeal. Appeal is granted based on the number of free and reduced meals are offered at the schools.
This has to be 50%. Again I don't know enough about the area (only what I see in driving by), but I have to assume MSHSL does know and therefore an appeal to play down was given based on them being in an area where the students receive free etc lunches.

On the surface it appears hard to believe, but it is only thing that adds up.
Doesn't Marshall MN bump up to AA size via co-op (at least on the girls' side) and get granted a play down, as well. I don't think it is school lunch related, but rather a 'come on guys, really?' situation. Based on the price of my raspberry rumple, I would think they're below 50%.
That is what I was wondering...
But their rules say you are put in a class based on numbers and that is it, unless you have 50% or more lunch thing and then you can appeal it.
So if there is another exception I could not find it.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:35 pm

Goldy Gopher wrote:Elliott can correct me if I'm wrong, but if the kid is unwilling to open enroll and still wants to participate in a particular sport, doesn't a co-op have to be formed? I find it hard to believe that the MSHSL would tell that kid that they simply cannot participate.
Forming a co-op is not that simple, but that would be one way of doing it. But yes some kids do not get to participate because they do not offer a sport.

Goldy Gopher
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Post by Goldy Gopher » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:36 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Goldy Gopher wrote:Elliott can correct me if I'm wrong, but if the kid is unwilling to open enroll and still wants to participate in a particular sport, doesn't a co-op have to be formed? I find it hard to believe that the MSHSL would tell that kid that they simply cannot participate.
Forming a co-op is not that simple, but that would be one way of doing it. But yes some kids do not get to participate because they do not offer a sport.
Well there you go. Even I'm wrong sometimes. :wink:
The U invented swagger.

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