Is there room for another class in hockey?

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:43 am

I'm sure this has been discussed before in the past, maybe ad nauseum, but just wanted to hear some discussion. Is there room for another class, below A? Seems like there is a whole level out there that will never taste a state tourny. I guess I don't see a downside to adding another class. Thoughts?

Bonin2121 · Post by **Bonin2121** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:51 am

Nope. Most people have little interest in the A tournament. The A- tournament would lose too much money to sustain itself.

Traxler · Post by **Traxler** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:52 am

This is an interesting idea. Right now the A tournament is dominated by the usual suspects the same way the AA tournament is. I assume adding another level would just create a third tournament that has the usual suspects.

I'm not opposed or in favor of a third class in hockey, but I'm not sure it will solve the problem of the little guys not making it to state, just like adding a second class has not really accomplished that.

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:12 am

What if it was at a whole different venue. No TV. Maybe at the MAC in St. Cloud.

yesiplayedhockey · Post by **yesiplayedhockey** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:27 am

You could make a separate class for just the private schools but a much better idea would be to put all the private schools in the same district and let them beat each other up for 1 ticket to state.

LASERBLUE135 · Post by **LASERBLUE135** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:30 am

Let's just say NO on this one.

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:31 am

The rich get richer, and the rest stay the same. Having a different venue sounds cool. For me personally, the section playoffs are my state tournament because we don’t get to the real state tournament hardly ever. It’s probably this way for most communities.

grindiangrad-80 · Post by **grindiangrad-80** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:53 am

Traxler wrote:This is an interesting idea. Right now the A tournament is dominated by the usual suspects the same way the AA tournament is. I assume adding another level would just create a third tournament that has the usual suspects.

I'm not opposed or in favor of a third class in hockey, but I'm not sure it will solve the problem of the little guys not making it to state, just like adding a second class has not really accomplished that.

I feel the same way as Traxler.

Doc Holliday · Post by **Doc Holliday** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:57 am

I guess I'd be more in favor of expanding the current set-up in some form than adding another class.

yesiplayedhockey · Post by **yesiplayedhockey** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:21 pm

So Checco..It's okay for Edina and Wayzata to beat each other up for one state bid but not St Thomas and Holy Family?

The best teams don't always go to state...Year after year it's proven that a few of the top ranked teams are often in the same conference and only one gets to go to state

And if you went back say 5 years, I'm guessing that 1 maybe 2 private schools end up being ranked in the top 8-10 at the end of the season. So tossing all the private schools into one conference would not weaken the state tournament at all .

I'm all in favor of going back to 1 class but that will never happen.

Cobber · Post by **Cobber** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:32 pm

May as well add another. Youth hockey has 3 so why not high school.Youth hockey added a single A for the smaller associations and then most of those teams opt down to play in the B tourney makes no sense to me.

zooomx · Post by **zooomx** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:03 pm

No, I don't think so. For me it starts with the question "how big of an accomplishment should winning a state tournament be?" Already, most sections only have 8 to 9 teams. I think that is appropriately challenging enough. If we go a 3rd class, one in 5 or 6 go to state?? Going to a state tournament should be a big deal.

Secondly, who is being left out?

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:16 pm

I was thinking of the Ely, Pine City, Bagely, RLF, Fairmont, etc. of the world. And if you think about it, in any given section in Class A, it is 5-6 different teams that come out anyways. Probably less than that really. If there are 6 competitive teams in a section you have a really good section.

Stang5280 · Post by **Stang5280** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:21 pm

Just as a point of comparison, Massachusetts has four separate classes for hockey, plus the Super Eight tournament. Massachusetts has just over 200 boys hockey programs in the MIAA, while Minnesota had 150 teams participating last year. Although the Massachusetts structure seems to be overkill and waters down the significance of each tournament, it may not be crazy to argue for a third class in Minnesota.

yesiplayedhockey · Post by **yesiplayedhockey** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:24 pm

How about this for a crazy idea..Make it more like the NCAA basketball tournament....Start the tournament with say 32 teams....bracket them so that the class A schools(8 of them) would be on 1/4 side of the brackets, private schools (8 of them) on the other 1/4 side of the brackets and the AA schools (16) all on the other half. The first few rounds would be held at different historic arena's around the state

You'd still end up with a Class A, Class AA and private school state tournament (and award the trophy's) ...But the three winners plus the runner up in class AA would play in a Thursday/Saturday final four format at Xcel Center ... Multiple problems solved

1. more teams can say they "played in state"
2. Old school guys like me could potentially see a small school versus big school true state championship like the 70's and 80's
3. We can introduce historic games in the first couple rounds played at some of the old great arenas around the state (imagine an Edina versus Minnetonka playoff game at say Warroad Arena)

Again, I am perfectly fine with the format today but if they wanted to switch things up this idea could be expanded upon

blueline_6 · Post by **blueline_6** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:29 pm

I'm already not crazy about the 'everyone gets a medal' approach to mites. I'm even less crazy about beginning to apply that line of thinking to the High School State Tournament. Two state champions in hockey is enough. Start adding more and you'll end up with a football structure - we'll have six classes plus a 4-on-4 champion.

BodyShots · Post by **BodyShots** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:37 pm

Why don't we just rename the section playoffs to "State Section Playoffs". That way everybody gets to play in the STATE tournament.

BTW, I'm old school and still would prefer only one class.

Lastly, the STATE tournaments should be played in venues that are more appropriate to the size of the crowds. It's got to be more fun playing in a packed arena versus playing at the X when it is half full or less.

Class AA - Xcel
Class A - 3M Arena
Girls - Ridder

Where is F3? · Post by **Where is F3?** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:49 pm

BodyShots wrote:Why don't we just rename the section playoffs to "State Section Playoffs". That way everybody gets to play in the STATE tournament.

BTW, I'm old school and still would prefer only one class.

Lastly, the STATE tournaments should be played in venues that are more appropriate to the size of the crowds. It's got to be more fun playing in a packed arena versus playing at the X when it is half full or less.

Class AA - Xcel
Class A - 3M Arena
Girls - Ridder

Although I agree with you, Title IX says no.

Slap Shot · Post by **Slap Shot** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:32 pm

Since they'll never go back to 1 tournament of 8 teams my preferred alternative would be a 16 team tournament in which the teams are selected the same way they are now. By 2 separate classes based upon school size (opt up rule still in play?), 8 sections per class, 1 team per section and all teams seeded regardless of class.

Bigcat99 · Post by **Bigcat99** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:27 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote: 3. We can introduce historic games in the first couple rounds played at some of the old great arenas around the state (imagine an Edina versus Minnetonka playoff game at say Warroad Arena)

Clearly you haven't looked closely at the Edina schedule. Their varsity doesn't venture north of the Metro. Must be due to budget constraints

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:06 pm

More pressing on the MSHSL agenda should be reducing the number of football divisions down from 7.

tezer13 · Post by **tezer13** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:57 am

NO, NO and NO.

I don't believe they ever should have split into two classes. My take always was to expand it to 16 teams. Winner and RU in Section Finals both make it and have to win 4 games.

It is my belief that we now just have a lower tier of hockey with teams that rarely ever have to play the best teams or see the best players in the state.

I hate that they did it to Pee Wees and Bantams, now those teams only fielding A programs will never play the best teams in the state and I think over time it will just further erode their programs.

In high school most of the better AA teams never play an A team, with a few rivalry exceptions here and there.

Plus, like many have already said, private schools and smaller power house teams will just sit down at the lower level and rack up as many titles as they can. I mean how fun can it be for A schools to go to the tourney and get whacked 8-0, 10-1, by the STA's and Hermantown's of the A world.

The only thing that I can see in favor of AA and A is that some teams in A have used the success to build their programs and then move up to AA (some waited a little too long IMO and some still are

). If that were, say, the Golden Rule, on how to treat A hockey, I would look at it in a better light.

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:24 am

Personally I wouldn't mind a third lower class. You fine folks that think the A tourney stinks now probably don't watch it anyways. Give some other small towns the excitement of participating in a state tournament. It would mean something to them. Cut the A tourney to 4 sections and take the top two from each section. Put the teams that get blown out in sections every year into the B tournament. Has nothing to do with giving everyone a participation trophy. There'd still only be 3 state champions.

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:29 am

tezer13 wrote:NO, NO and NO.

I don't believe they ever should have split into two classes. My take always was to expand it to 16 teams. Winner and RU in Section Finals both make it and have to win 4 games.

It is my belief that we now just have a lower tier of hockey with teams that rarely ever have to play the best teams or see the best players in the state.

I hate that they did it to Pee Wees and Bantams, now those teams only fielding A programs will never play the best teams in the state and I think over time it will just further erode their programs.

In high school most of the better AA teams never play an A team, with a few rivalry exceptions here and there.

Plus, like many have already said, private schools and smaller power house teams will just sit down at the lower level and rack up as many titles as they can. I mean how fun can it be for A schools to go to the tourney and get whacked 8-0, 10-1, by the STA's and Hermantown's of the A world.

The only thing that I can see in favor of AA and A is that some teams in A have used the success to build their programs and then move up to AA (some waited a little too long IMO and some still are ). If that were, say, the Golden Rule, on how to treat A hockey, I would look at it in a better light.

Do you have solid proof that this is happening? In my "A" association we pretty much always got destroyed by the big AA programs except in those special years when we had incredible talent coming through. Our success is based on the talent coming through, not on whether we played AA associations or not. I'm sure it's the same for most "A" programs that truly are "A" programs.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:43 pm

I think the MSHSL requires about 64 teams to make another class. I remember when girls hockey added the second class they did not have the numbers for quite some time and when it got close they went ahead and did it. Not sure of the number of girls teams now but it must be close to 128.

In football for 9 man through 3A there are close to 64 teams.
4A & 5A have near 48 each and of course 6A has about 32. But that was brought about to get those BIG schools in their own bracket and took a bit of lobbying.

Boys hockey has about 82 in single A and 69 in AA or 151. About 35 or so away before looking at another division.
So for the MSHSL to look at it, a lobbying effort to pull the top 32 teams into a AAA league would have to be done. Typically it would be done by enrollment with a few exceptions (Totino in football).
Then take the remaining about 120 teams and have AA and A with about 60 in each.

AAA would be WBL, Woodbury, LN, LS, Wayzata, Hopkins, Roseville, Farmington, Forest Lake, Shakopee, Anoka, Andover, Blaine, Brainerd, Centennial, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Eagan, East Ridge, Eastview,
Eden Prairie, Edina, Maple Grove, Minnetonka, Mounds View, Buffalo, Burnsville, Chanhassen, Osseo, Prior Lake, Robbinsdale Armstrong, Rosemount, Stillwater.

Leaves out teams such as Moorhead, Duluth East, defending champs Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Bemidji, Roseau.
St Cloud would probably have to be pushed into that group.
Minneapolis would be given a break I would guess and not sure how St Paul schools are grouped.
And then the private schools, DM, HF, HA, HM, Blake, STA.
So it becomes a bit messy, but would probably bring new faces to the X or whatever venues had to be use.