The Hermantown Thread

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rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Tue May 07, 2019 1:07 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:51 am
rainier2 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:41 am
Puck1234! wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:55 am
Yikes! Your defense of transferring your kid to Hermantown for anything other than bald-faced trophy-chasing is as weak as your forum posting skills, so I bolded your post so no will think that I am capable of such desperately deluded rationalization.

Why not move him earlier than his senior year? Last year's Virginia team was hard-working, but now they're a bunch of slackers? Could it be that last year's team, going into the season, was looked at as a potential top ten team that had a shot to be as good as Greenway? And that this year's team, even with your kid, is unlikely to crack the top 4 in 7A?

Rapids is closer to Virginia than Hermantown. They have a lot of hardworking players. Why not go there? East has plenty of hard-working players and as challenging of a schedule as you'll find, along with a legendary coach. That's only a few minutes further than Hermantown, and you can find a house in Lakeside for half of what one would cost in Hermantown. Or why not just send him to juniors? All the players there are trying to make it to the next level, so hard work and dedication is guaranteed. Why did you settle for little Class A Hermantown?

My guess is that the reason you didn't choose any of these other routes is because they don't represent a guaranteed ticket to state like Hermantown does. Just think of all the great social media posts you'll be able to make as your Hawks steamroll other A teams. Just think of the mic-drop responses you'll be able to fire back at the Virginia fans who call you a traitor. You can already feel the rush of a 23-2 regular season and beating your three 7A playoff opponents by a combined score of 22-1, even if you're kid doesn't play on the top line or the pp.

Congrats. =D>
2 miles???
Hermantown rink to Virginia rink and same for grand rapids - Hermantown would be closer.
The distance argument is irrelevant.
Fair enough, distance is irrelevant. But housing in GR is going to be far cheaper, and GR will play more top AA teams, meaning more exposure for the player in question. Same goes for Duluth East. Those teams would also mean challenging games in the regular season and the playoffs. Why, again, would Hermantown be the choice?

Is it the hardworking nature of the Hermantown program? One of the stars of last year's Hawk team transferred as a Pee Wee and two others transferred as bantams. Without these players, who were stars before they arrived, Hermantown would have lost to Greenway by 3 goals and maybe even lost to Virginia. Why wasn't the hardworking Hermantown program, which apparently works far harder than Virginia or any other Range program, capable of winning with their own players last year? (Drawn from a AA-sized population area, by the way.)

Hopefully we'll get to hear from the family of the hardworking Hermantown player that will lose his roster spot to the transfer.

elliott70
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by elliott70 » Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:41 am


Fair enough, distance is irrelevant. But housing in GR is going to be far cheaper, and GR will play more top AA teams, meaning more exposure for the player in question. Same goes for Duluth East. Those teams would also mean challenging games in the regular season and the playoffs. Why, again, would Hermantown be the choice?

Is it the hardworking nature of the Hermantown program? One of the stars of last year's Hawk team transferred as a Pee Wee and two others transferred as bantams. Without these players, who were stars before they arrived, Hermantown would have lost to Greenway by 3 goals and maybe even lost to Virginia. Why wasn't the hardworking Hermantown program, which apparently works far harder than Virginia or any other Range program, capable of winning with their own players last year? (Drawn from a AA-sized population area, by the way.)

Hopefully we'll get to hear from the family of the hardworking Hermantown player that will lose his roster spot to the transfer.

This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)

:D

Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.

IRMN
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by IRMN » Wed May 08, 2019 9:00 am

Virginia is no doubt in rebuilding mode right now. They'll be competitive as always. It may not show up in the wins column for a year or two but this new coach has a great vision from what I hear. As a neutral observer, what he needs....is kids like Kilen...even though none of his "friends" are there anymore....to STAY and LEAD. I guarantee most programs around here want to have success like a Hermantown. Why wouldn't you? But in order to get there, you need your best players to stick around and lead. Be the example for the other players, for the younger players. Lead by example and set the standard for the type of program you want to play for. The coach gives you every OPPORTUNITY to be successful. It is really up to the kids to live up to the standards and get it done. Just seems like no one wants to be a leader anymore...no one wants to work hard and build things up....they just want to go where it is already established and jump on the wagon. It'll be interesting to see what happens on May 14th. If the referendum passes and Virginia and Eveleth-Gilbert combine...I can see that program taking off and becoming a force in section 7 in the next 5 years or so. It'll take some building but if kids stick around, it could happen.

Stang5280
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Stang5280 » Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am

elliott70 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm
This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)

:D

Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.
The prodigal son (dad? ;)) has returned from his spring hibernation! I rarely dip my toes into the choppy waters of this thread, but I was curious to read your response. Thankfully my eyesight is still decent enough to read fine print, even after turning yet another year older yesterday, to catch your compliment.

I agree that while families moving can be exploited as a loophole, it is nearly impossible for most of us as outsiders to know the true motivations for a move. Heck, even if a movie is primarily driven by hockey, it's not something that can really be policed, even if it seems rather gross on the surface. Creating eligibility restrictions on families moving would hurt a great number of innocent players in order to catch a relatively small percentage of bad apples.

ironranger2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by ironranger2 » Wed May 08, 2019 11:22 am

I think anyone who has interacted with this kids dad is not surprised at all by this. Every program in the state has guys like him who are in it more for their own ego than what works for their kid. Is the kid a good player? Absolutely. Is he going to be a top line player at Hermantown? Probably not.

I think Elliott brought up a good point that I never really thought of. Weighing all other factors (and you took hockey out of the equation) most people would probably choose Hermantown to live vs. Grand Rapids or Duluth. So why should we be surprised when someone chooses to go play hockey there? I don't like it anymore than everyone else, but they are following the rules. It didn't really bother me last year when you had the two Hibbing kids go to Greenway, but if they had gone to Hermantown instead, my gut feeling would have probably been different.

IRMN is correct in that there is something about staying around and "leading" the next generation of players. Unfortunately, you won't see YHH and the Twitter gurus writing about those players, and dad wants to see his kid's name out there.

I feel bad for Virginia, but this isn't the first kid that has left and it definitely won't be the last. One of the guys I work with said it best...."Never underestimate the ego of parents with kids in sports!"

elliott70
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by elliott70 » Wed May 08, 2019 11:54 am

Stang5280 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am
elliott70 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm
This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)

:D

Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.
The prodigal son (dad? ;)) has returned from his spring hibernation! I rarely dip my toes into the choppy waters of this thread, but I was curious to read your response. Thankfully my eyesight is still decent enough to read fine print, even after turning yet another year older yesterday, to catch your compliment.

I agree that while families moving can be exploited as a loophole, it is nearly impossible for most of us as outsiders to know the true motivations for a move. Heck, even if a movie is primarily driven by hockey, it's not something that can really be policed, even if it seems rather gross on the surface. Creating eligibility restrictions on families moving would hurt a great number of innocent players in order to catch a relatively small percentage of bad apples.
Happy birthday, Stang!

Stang5280
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Stang5280 » Wed May 08, 2019 2:43 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:54 am
Stang5280 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am
elliott70 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm
This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)

:D

Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.
The prodigal son (dad? ;)) has returned from his spring hibernation! I rarely dip my toes into the choppy waters of this thread, but I was curious to read your response. Thankfully my eyesight is still decent enough to read fine print, even after turning yet another year older yesterday, to catch your compliment.

I agree that while families moving can be exploited as a loophole, it is nearly impossible for most of us as outsiders to know the true motivations for a move. Heck, even if a movie is primarily driven by hockey, it's not something that can really be policed, even if it seems rather gross on the surface. Creating eligibility restrictions on families moving would hurt a great number of innocent players in order to catch a relatively small percentage of bad apples.
Happy birthday, Stang!
Thanks, and good to see you back around these parts!

StanleyCup55
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by StanleyCup55 » Wed May 08, 2019 10:09 pm

Kids transferring and families moving into HT is not the issue because it’s all within the rules of the league. If you have issues with the rules you should write or set a meeting with the league office in Brooklyn Park.

HT sandbagging it and playing Class A instead of AA is the issue.

Jeffy95
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri May 10, 2019 9:32 am

StanleyCup55 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:09 pm
Kids transferring and families moving into HT is not the issue because it’s all within the rules of the league. If you have issues with the rules you should write or set a meeting with the league office in Brooklyn Park.

HT sandbagging it and playing Class A instead of AA is the issue.
You're correct, but the two do go hand in hand. The Admin and Coaching Staff are fully aware of the hordes of top end players that are open-enrolling and moving in specifically for Hockey. Instead of using this to advance their program, they use it to dominate a Class that was set up for exactly the opposite type of Program. It will be interesting to see if they finally pay a price for that this year.

Another very interesting stat from Karl's research on another thread.

Hermantown Free and Reduced lunch rate: 10.1% (Similar to Edina at 8.5% and Wayzata at 9.4%, lower than Maple Grove and Woodbury)

The rest of 7A:

North Shore 20.6%
Proctor 22.9%
International Falls 32.3%
Virginia 33.5%
Eveleth Gilbert 33.8%
Ely 35.6%
Hibbing 35.9%
Greenway 40.5%
Duluth Denfeld 53.1%

Cue up the Sesame Street Song: "One of these things, is not like the others, one of these things, just isn't the same."

7AA for Comparison:

Andover 12.5%
Elk River 14.0%
Forest Lake 15.6%
Duluth East 16.8%
St. Francis 22.1%
Cloquet 27.1%
Cambridge 28.1%
Grand Rapids 28.7%

When you combine this with the highest percentage of incoming players through open-enrollment/transfer in the State, it's not surprising that you would have success in the Class that was set up for Small, Community based programs.

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Fri May 10, 2019 10:34 am

👍

greenwayraider
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by greenwayraider » Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am

What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.

Jeffy95
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:58 am

greenwayraider wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am
What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.
Yes, interesting point on Mahto and Delano. Lower F/R than Hermantown even. But they don't get the hordes of open-enrollees/transfers. So we can pinpoint exactly the difference between their marginal success and Hermantown's dominance.

That guy for that thing
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by That guy for that thing » Fri May 10, 2019 11:59 am

greenwayraider wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am
What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.
That is a very interesting way to look at it. I would be interested to see how that reflects for the rest of 7A/AA, as well as the top contenders every year statewide. I have some free time on Sunday so if someone doesn't beat me to it, I may look into that.

zooomx
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by zooomx » Thu May 23, 2019 1:11 pm

greenwayraider wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am
What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.
Definitely interesting. One other factor would be how many other activities kids in each school have to choose from. I know in Alex, we have a very good basketball program, solid in wresting, stellar swimming and diving and just a ton of other activities. I also think tradition plays a role. I imagine up in Greenway hockey is the sport many kids would love to play with the tradition it has up there. That, and some deep rooted hockey families who eat, drink and sleep hockey. I am guessing on those thoughts. I also wonder if the players in many northern communities spend more time on a pond playing for fun. I think that is something missing in many other communities in which kids only play hockey at the rink in a structured environment. I know in our town, I would love to see more outdoor rinks with younger players out playing for fun. That is where a lot of the creativity can be developed naturally.

All these thoughts are why I root pretty hard for the northern teams (at least when we don't play them).

karl(east)
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by karl(east) » Thu May 23, 2019 9:08 pm

zooomx wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:11 pm
greenwayraider wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am
What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.
Definitely interesting. One other factor would be how many other activities kids in each school have to choose from. I know in Alex, we have a very good basketball program, solid in wresting, stellar swimming and diving and just a ton of other activities. I also think tradition plays a role. I imagine up in Greenway hockey is the sport many kids would love to play with the tradition it has up there. That, and some deep rooted hockey families who eat, drink and sleep hockey. I am guessing on those thoughts. I also wonder if the players in many northern communities spend more time on a pond playing for fun. I think that is something missing in many other communities in which kids only play hockey at the rink in a structured environment. I know in our town, I would love to see more outdoor rinks with younger players out playing for fun. That is where a lot of the creativity can be developed naturally.

All these thoughts are why I root pretty hard for the northern teams (at least when we don't play them).
Interesting stuff for us amateur social scientists working this all out. Back on the F/R thread I made some noise about graphing team success vs. F/R rate to see who seemed to overachieve and underachieve, and a few of us threw out some speculation on which schools did, I didn't go through with actually calculating anything since enrollment seemed like too big of an additional variable. (Mahtomedi may have a super low F/R rate, but it's still unfair to compare the Zephyrs to the Edinas and Minnetonkas of the world since the school is a fraction of the size.) If we could add another variable of hockey-playing population as greenwayraider suggests, though, we might get there if we use the raw number of non F/R boys a school has to draw from. As for zoomx's point about other options, youth numbers could be a helpful guide here...if two schools are the same size and have similar F/R rates and one fields four bantam teams while the other fields two, that's probably going to have a direct correlation to their success, as one is pretty clearly more of a hockey school than the other.

Someday we'll collectively develop some sort of massive Hockey Success Prediction Formula that takes every possible socioeconomic and cultural factor into account. :lol: The one thing that still might not be able to capture, though, is the tendency of hockey people to settle in certain areas. Greenway may not have big numbers, but did benefit from some impressive bloodlines for a few of the team's top players this past season. Edina, obviously, has had a tendency to collect metro-area hockey royalty over the years. We're certainly seeing some degree of that these days on the east side of Duluth as well, with a lot of last names from the early years of the Randolph Era now making their way through the program, and more to come from later years. Hermantown's success hasn't been sustained for long enough that we're seeing multiple generations yet, but as I've noted elsewhere, the Hawks have certainly benefited from close ties with current and past UMD coaches.

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:53 pm

Speaking of new rinks/complexes like the new one being built in Elk River....I sole to a Hermonite today and a 10million dollar rink is in the works being engineered on paper. Hermantown will be drawing hockey players from sea to shining sea 😳

zooomx
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by zooomx » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:42 pm

kniven wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:53 pm
Speaking of new rinks/complexes like the new one being built in Elk River....I sole to a Hermonite today and a 10million dollar rink is in the works being engineered on paper. Hermantown will be drawing hockey players from sea to shining sea 😳
I have looked at drawings in my town for rinks anywhere from 4-20 million over the past 15 years. Word of advice: Don't get excited until the money is in the bank and the shovel is in the ground.

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:01 pm

The rink in Hermantown is the only thing that has slowed that program down. They routinely have had 7 of their own on the Elite League team north every year since 2007. With this new hockey/rink complex in the works at Hermantown, that number will go up to 12 every fall. In 40 years, Hermantown will be called the greatest high school hockey franchise in Minnesota high school hockey history. You heard it here first. It obvious so not very difficult to predict. People don’t predict it now because they opt down when the playoffs/state tournament come around.

blueblood
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by blueblood » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:06 pm

They may get better, but they NEVER will be considered the best HS hockey franchise in MN until they move to AA
Play Like a Champion Today

MNHockeyFan
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by MNHockeyFan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:38 pm

It's impossible to accurately predict 40 years out. So much depends on the relative population growth of communities. And money will continue to play a big part in each community's success, as having kids in hockey will not be getting any cheaper. So while Hermantown may be getting a fancy new arena, in 40 years there will likely be outlying Twin Cities suburbs that will grow faster and have the money and support to build something just as attractive, if not more so.

As an avid hockey fan I applaud all of Hermantown's past success...just trying to be realistic in what may lie ahead.

bardown27
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by bardown27 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:07 am

kniven wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:01 pm
The rink in Hermantown is the only thing that has slowed that program down. They routinely have had 7 of their own on the Elite League team north every year since 2007. With this new hockey/rink complex in the works at Hermantown, that number will go up to 12 every fall. In 40 years, Hermantown will be called the greatest high school hockey franchise in Minnesota high school hockey history. You heard it here first. It obvious so not very difficult to predict. People don’t predict it now because they opt down when the playoffs/state tournament come around.
Kniven you realize Cloquet had more guys rostered in the Elite League last year than Hermantown right...?

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:44 am

Yes I do. It was one time, and it will never happen again. In 2012-2013 fall league, CEC had 3 players in the elite league, which is the most we ever had until last year. ’ll always love the purple the best, absolutely, though despite this 🤓👍

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