The Hermantown Thread

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rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:16 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:41 pm
I am just telling you how it is. People don’t see it the way you do. They don’t see it as an A and B tournament like you are trying to make it. And as far as EGF I am aware, but the road to the section final is far different, so is the state tournament itself and they know that.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but when I make claims, I usually follow them with some type of evidence, while you...don't. But, feel free to just tell me how it is, cause that settles it, I guess. :roll:

If you haven’t heard this talk then you just aren’t talking to people. I’m sorry you just aren’t.

I've known plenty of people involved with the Hibbing teams that opted up, and never once have heard "we really missed out on some A experiences by being in AA". I've never seen anyone post this on any forum, site, or social media. I've never heard a fan of any of the teams that opt up or have opted up to AA say that. I've been a rabid HS hockey fan since long before there was even a Class A, yet I've never heard what you claim is "just how it is". In fact, all I've ever heard is the exact opposite. Do people in Roseau all feel this way? Then maybe they should opt down and get in on some of that hot Class A action they've been missing. :D

Assume Hermantown does move up. It looks like Hibbing’s PeeWees are pretty good. Beat the great Hermantown by 5 goals. Also beat Rapids and East and currently sport a number 1 ranking at class A. I assume based on your comments that you are lobbying to be AA by the time this group gets there and it also sounds like it will happen with all that support. If they do get beat in sections I promise you there will be talk of it. As a matter of fact if you go poll that teams parents right now I am guessing you may for the first time hear something you claim you’ve never heard. That they have second thoughts about “going for it”.

I would love it if that group played AA. I hope it happens.

This is a small and shrinking pool. By far the minority.

I don’t want to comment on individual kid’s performances or call anyone a choker. But I will ask who’s point are you trying to make? On any given night Warroad could have beat any of those teams. I am sticking by that absolutely.

Great. And I stick by them being the top seed yet being blown out 11-5 in two games vs city teams, neither of which was Hermantown.

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:49 pm

Funny thing is I never hear Warroad or EGF people telling me they wish they were AA or had been. And if everyone agreeed with you I don’t know why they would be A still. Is somebody getting in the way?

There might be and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens.

Great, I look forward to seeing them in 7AA. It sounds like you have all the support. Unanimous consent even.

And I get you are looking for a reaction but 6-4 with an EN? The winning goal was scored with 3 minutes left. Not a blowoit

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:37 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:49 pm
Funny thing is I never hear Warroad or EGF people telling me they wish they were AA or had been. And if everyone agreeed with you I don’t know why they would be A still. Is somebody getting in the way?

It's obvious now that what I say and what your hear are two very different things. I said I've never heard anyone express regrets for opting up to AA, not that anyone has said they wish they were AA or had been. Of course no one is going to tell you that they wish they had been in AA. Opting up is a source of pride, while missing out on a good chance to make it to AA state because you didn't go for it is not.

There might be and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens.

Great, I look forward to seeing them in 7AA. It sounds like you have all the support. Unanimous consent even.

Again, not sure where I said anything about support or unanimous consent about Hibbing opting up at some point. I'd love it if they do, and if they don't, I'll live. No one will ask for my opinion when that decision is made.

And I get you are looking for a reaction but 6-4 with an EN? The winning goal was scored with 3 minutes left. Not a blowoit

Ok, fine. They played well in the meaningless game, and got blown out in the one that really mattered. You happy? :D I hope that the Warriors have a much better showing this year, should they make it again. I'd much rather see them win it than Hermantown or Gentry.

Slap Shot
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Slap Shot » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:15 am

BlueLineSpecial wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:53 am
Wet Paint wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:13 am
BlueLineSpecial wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:09 am
I believe this has been brought up in the past, but I'll bring it up again: If the vast majority of people agree that Hermantown should be playing in AA, and think that staying in A is sandbagging, then why do AA teams continue to schedule them (this weird year aside, and conference games that may mix A and AA teams aside, as well)? Evidently there aren't many people in decision-making roles that feel this way about Hermantown, or they would do something about it. Seems to me there is a straightforward solution to this, which is for non-conference AA teams to stop scheduling Hermantown in the regular season. When Hermantown plays half or more of their schedule against not only AA teams, but top AA teams, you're sort of giving them an out from having the move up to AA.
In the end the QRF score is just a score. YOu still have to beat everybody in your section and then if/when you move onto state you have to win all of your games. What better way to find out how your team is than by taking on one of the top AA teams in the state? All areas of your game are tested. If you win or lose on the scoreboard is not really a big deal, you got a chance to see your team up against one of the best that can be put together from around northern mn and out of state to see what needs to be worked on before the games matter. AA teams are crazy not to schedule them.
You're missing the point. The point is that if 'everyone' or 'the vast majority' of people in the state feel Hermantown should be AA, then there's a simple solution: AA teams outside their conference shouldn't schedule them. But I guess 'everyone' or 'the vast majority' don't include decision-makers or influential folks in AA that have the power to put a hurt on Hermantown's ability to essentially only play A at the high school level.
It's not up to AA programs to 'force' Hermantown into AA. Those programs couldn't care less and why should they? They're looking to schedule a quality opponent to challenge their own team not to be social justice warriors. None of which has anything to do with Hermantown continually choosing to hide their program once it becomes playoff time.

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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by BlueLineSpecial » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:28 am

Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:15 am
BlueLineSpecial wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:53 am
Wet Paint wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:13 am


In the end the QRF score is just a score. YOu still have to beat everybody in your section and then if/when you move onto state you have to win all of your games. What better way to find out how your team is than by taking on one of the top AA teams in the state? All areas of your game are tested. If you win or lose on the scoreboard is not really a big deal, you got a chance to see your team up against one of the best that can be put together from around northern mn and out of state to see what needs to be worked on before the games matter. AA teams are crazy not to schedule them.
You're missing the point. The point is that if 'everyone' or 'the vast majority' of people in the state feel Hermantown should be AA, then there's a simple solution: AA teams outside their conference shouldn't schedule them. But I guess 'everyone' or 'the vast majority' don't include decision-makers or influential folks in AA that have the power to put a hurt on Hermantown's ability to essentially only play A at the high school level.
It's not up to AA programs to 'force' Hermantown into AA. Those programs couldn't care less and why should they? They're looking to schedule a quality opponent to challenge their own team not to be social justice warriors. None of which has anything to do with Hermantown continually choosing to hide their program once it becomes playoff time.
I agree that it's not the job of AA programs to force Hermantown into AA. What I'm saying is: if Hermantown isn't willing to make the move themselves, there are alternatives to making that happen. One way to lean on them would be for AA teams refusing to play them. But clearly the people around nearly every AA program (fans, parents, community at large, etc) in the state aren't terribly concerned about whether Hermantown plays A or AA or they would use the power and influence they have to enact change. So as long as the only people that seem terribly upset or effected by this are a handful of folks on this board, I wouldn't hold your breath on an opt up.
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7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:29 am

rainier2 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:37 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:49 pm
Funny thing is I never hear Warroad or EGF people telling me they wish they were AA or had been. And if everyone agreeed with you I don’t know why they would be A still. Is somebody getting in the way?

It's obvious now that what I say and what your hear are two very different things. I said I've never heard anyone express regrets for opting up to AA, not that anyone has said they wish they were AA or had been. Of course no one is going to tell you that they wish they had been in AA. Opting up is a source of pride, while missing out on a good chance to make it to AA state because you didn't go for it is not.

Did I say I was quoting you? What I was saying is that it seems like they are happy with the class A experience. I have never met anyone that is ashamed of their state championships because they could have competed in AA. Usually it's a source of pride.

There might be and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens.

Great, I look forward to seeing them in 7AA. It sounds like you have all the support. Unanimous consent even.

Again, not sure where I said anything about support or unanimous consent about Hibbing opting up at some point. I'd love it if they do, and if they don't, I'll live. No one will ask for my opinion when that decision is made.

Yeah I guess that was just assumed since in your long time being a HS hockey fan you have not once heard somebody say anything against opting up. If you can't find anyone that would speak against it or if you truly find my take impossible to believe then I just can't imagine what would get in the way. So hopefully for you they do. It might be a little awkward when they put every 7A team in running time in sections (did I see a 20-0 score vs Greenway and 27-0 vs Ely?) and then get in the way of the likes of Luverne having a nice little state tournament. And I look forward to you having the same take about it as you do now.

And I get you are looking for a reaction but 6-4 with an EN? The winning goal was scored with 3 minutes left. Not a blowoit

Ok, fine. They played well in the meaningless game, and got blown out in the one that really mattered. You happy? :D I hope that the Warriors have a much better showing this year, should they make it again. I'd much rather see them win it than Hermantown or Gentry.

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:12 am

Your replies are hard to pick out of the last post, so I pasted them into this one with responses.

7TC: Did I say I was quoting you? What I was saying is that it seems like they are happy with the class A experience. I have never met anyone that is ashamed of their state championships because they could have competed in AA. Usually it's a source of pride.

Again, you are attributing ideas and words to me I never said. Here’s what I was getting at, and I’ll type very slowly for you: If Warroad beats the 8AA favorites during the regular season, but the Warriors then go on to lose in the Class A tourney (or not even make it there), and then the 8AA team they beat does well at the AA tourney, I’d imagine there would be quite a few Warroad fans thinking they should have went AA.

I think this is a much more likely scenario, given the way Class A has gone, than Warroad winning an A title, something they haven’t done in 16 years. It’s nice to think these upcoming Warroad teams could win an A title, but I have a hard time seeing it happen. I’ve seen it happen with Hibbing in 2016, and we’re seeing it happen with Denfeld so far this year: a team has a great A group come through youth, building excitement, but what is happening over in Hermantown is that they are having just as much success, if not more, but they are doing it vs EP, Tonka, Edina, and other AA bluebloods, not TRF, LOTW, Ely, and Greenway..

In addition, the Hermantown team right above and below will also be a top AA group, while the Warroad one is likely to have at least one of those groups be an average A group. And then Hermantown will add a few high level transfers along the way to HS or once in HS, so your A team will need to do the same to keep up. That’s what Greenway did. Is this what Class A should be?


7TC: Yeah I guess that was just assumed since in your long time being a HS hockey fan you have not once heard somebody say anything against opting up. If you can't find anyone that would speak against it or if you truly find my take impossible to believe then I just can't imagine what would get in the way. So hopefully for you they do. It might be a little awkward when they put every 7A team in running time in sections (did I see a 20-0 score vs Greenway and 27-0 vs Ely?) and then get in the way of the likes of Luverne having a nice little state tournament. And I look forward to you having the same take about it as you do now.

Again, what I said was “I’ve never heard anyone express regret for opting up.”, not “I have not once heard somebody say anything against opting up.” These are two clearly different ideas and whether you do this intentionally or not, it’s difficult to have a meaningful discussion when your arguments are based on things I never said. You can twist my words and/or misunderstand what I’m saying all you want, but you won’t convince me of anything by using HSHW’s “fog of debate” tactics. :D

Yes, I'd be happy to see Hibbing take a shot at AA, but given they've never even won one A title, I don't think anyone, including myself, would have a problem with them kicking butt one year at A, which may or may not even happen, given the existence of Hermantown and other city teams in A.

I can already hear you saying "A-ha! So why is it okay for Hibbing to kick butt in A?", as if that somehow contradicts my long-held position. I'll save you having to post that and reiterate my real position on any team kicking butt in A: I have no problem with any team kicking butt in A...once in a while. I can't tell you "where's the line?", but I do know that once team has won an A title, and can compete in AA just fine on a yearly basis, then that team should go to AA. As far as Warroad, why don't we wait to see if they actually win an A title before we get too far down the road on that?

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:22 am

rainier2 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:12 am
Your replies are hard to pick out of the last post, so I pasted them into this one with responses.

7TC: Did I say I was quoting you? What I was saying is that it seems like they are happy with the class A experience. I have never met anyone that is ashamed of their state championships because they could have competed in AA. Usually it's a source of pride.

Again, you are attributing ideas and words to me I never said. Here’s what I was getting at, and I’ll type very slowly for you: If Warroad beats the 8AA favorites during the regular season, but the Warriors then go on to lose in the Class A tourney (or not even make it there), and then the 8AA team they beat does well at the AA tourney, I’d imagine there would be quite a few Warroad fans thinking they should have went AA.

You are difficult to have a discussion with because you make a statement and then when called out on inconsistencies in your logic you just say "I didn't say that! You put words in my mouth! and then insert some kind of intelligence insult. Here is what you said " Of course no one is going to tell you that they wish they had been in AA. Opting up is a source of pride, while missing out on a good chance to make it to AA state because you didn't go for it is not." By saying not opting up is something to not have pride in I guess it was too large of a leap to assume that meant it is something to be ashamed of? Why don't you explain what you meant by something to not have pride in then. What is it? You keep on saying you think people would say oh shoot we could have done well in AA, we missed our chance, but they don't. You like evidence so much why not provide some? Here is mine, never are there enough people saying they should move up that they do it.

I think this is a much more likely scenario, given the way Class A has gone, than Warroad winning an A title, something they haven’t done in 16 years. It’s nice to think these upcoming Warroad teams could win an A title, but I have a hard time seeing it happen. I’ve seen it happen with Hibbing in 2016, and we’re seeing it happen with Denfeld so far this year: a team has a great A group come through youth, building excitement, but what is happening over in Hermantown is that they are having just as much success, if not more, but they are doing it vs EP, Tonka, Edina, and other AA bluebloods, not TRF, LOTW, Ely, and Greenway..

In addition, the Hermantown team right above and below will also be a top AA group, while the Warroad one is likely to have at least one of those groups be an average A group. And then Hermantown will add a few high level transfers along the way to HS or once in HS, so your A team will need to do the same to keep up. That’s what Greenway did. Is this what Class A should be?


I am not arguing that Hermantown shouldn't move up. So why are we talking about Hermantown? It almost feels like you are committing your cardinal sin trying to put words in my mouth. Don't worry I won't berate your intelligence over it. Go back to the start where you comment about how great a tournament it would be if we got rid of all the top teams and some lower top 10 teams(or even Luverne) could win it all. And there were no blowouts. I was trying to make the point that you are going to have to get rid of programs like Warroad to do that. In comparison to Hermantown maybe they aren't quite there but maybe they are. This is the third year in a row they are #1. Last year it was without their best player that opted up to high school and had a dang nice season. So I guess we will see. But it won't be some steep drop off to the next best team. In my vision of class A small, public schools that play with their own kids can stay at class A even if it means some ugly games in the state tournament or Luverne never bringing home a championship. And apparently we disagree about that. My impression of what you want (to be clear I am not quoting you) is a self impossed tier 1/2 or A/B type of setup. IF it is different than that I haven't picked up on how yet.

7TC: Yeah I guess that was just assumed since in your long time being a HS hockey fan you have not once heard somebody say anything against opting up. If you can't find anyone that would speak against it or if you truly find my take impossible to believe then I just can't imagine what would get in the way. So hopefully for you they do. It might be a little awkward when they put every 7A team in running time in sections (did I see a 20-0 score vs Greenway and 27-0 vs Ely?) and then get in the way of the likes of Luverne having a nice little state tournament. And I look forward to you having the same take about it as you do now.

Again, what I said was “I’ve never heard anyone express regret for opting up.”, not “I have not once heard somebody say anything against opting up.” These are two clearly different ideas and whether you do this intentionally or not, it’s difficult to have a meaningful discussion when your arguments are based on things I never said. You can twist my words and/or misunderstand what I’m saying all you want, but you won’t convince me of anything by using HSHW’s “fog of debate” tactics. :D

Here is your exact quote "I've known plenty of people involved with the Hibbing teams that opted up, and never once have heard "we really missed out on some A experiences by being in AA". I've never seen anyone post this on any forum, site, or social media. I've never heard a fan of any of the teams that opt up or have opted up to AA say that. I've been a rabid HS hockey fan since long before there was even a Class A, yet I've never heard what you claim is "just how it is". In fact, all I've ever heard is the exact opposite." I think my summary was pretty close to what you said. And as impossible as you think it will be to hear, if Hibbing opts up and if they lose in sections you will hear this (if Hermantown is gone), "we really missed out on some A experiences by being in AA"

[/b]Yes, I'd be happy to see Hibbing take a shot at AA, but given they've never even won one A title, I don't think anyone, including myself, would have a problem with them kicking butt one year at A, which may or may not even happen, given the existence of Hermantown and other city teams in A.

I can already hear you saying "A-ha! So why is it okay for Hibbing to kick butt in A?", as if that somehow contradicts my long-held position. I'll save you having to post that and reiterate my real position on any team kicking butt in A: I have no problem with any team kicking butt in A...once in a while. I can't tell you "where's the line?", but I do know that once team has won an A title, and can compete in AA just fine on a yearly basis, then that team should go to AA. As far as Warroad, why don't we wait to see if they actually win an A title before we get too far down the road on that?[/b]


I agree if they want to stay in A and destroy teams at the state tournament they should be able to.

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:53 am

7TC: You are difficult to have a discussion with because you make a statement and then when called out on inconsistencies in your logic you just say "I didn't say that! You put words in my mouth! and then insert some kind of intelligence insult. Here is what you said " Of course no one is going to tell you that they wish they had been in AA. Opting up is a source of pride, while missing out on a good chance to make it to AA state because you didn't go for it is not." By saying not opting up is something to not have pride in I guess it was too large of a leap to assume that meant it is something to be ashamed of? Why don't you explain what you meant by something to not have pride in then. What is it? You keep on saying you think people would say oh shoot we could have done well in AA, we missed our chance, but they don't. You like evidence so much why not provide some? Here is mine, never are there enough people saying they should move up that they do it.

So we can both be absolutely clear and understanding exactly what each other is saying, how about we take this one item at a time? Feel free to make a separate post for other issues.

Okay, I’ll explain: If Warroad had shown in youth that they could compete fine with the top of 8AA, and opted up in HS, but then lost in the 8AA playoffs, I think the overriding sentiment in Warroad would be “We’re proud we went for it.”, and not “Man, we really missed out on another chance at A hardware.” I think this is especially true given the A dominance shown by Hermantown and other A city teams.I base this opinion on the evidence that I’ve never heard anyone ever express regret for opting up.

Sure, if Warroad wins an A title, there would likely not be regret expressed about not opting up, but I’m saying I don’t see them winning a title as long as Hermantown and other city teams keep dominating. Hopefully I am wrong and they do break through, but last year’s Warroad bantams lost to Hermantown 8-2. Would that top player have helped? Undoubtedly. But is he worth six goals? I’m not so sure. And the year before, the only AA teams that Warroad bantams team beat were Roseau and Bemidji, while Hermantown was beating Tonka, Stillwater, East, and Moorhead. (And I am talking about Hermantown because this is the Hermantown thread, and because my central arguments rests on the fact that the presence of Hermantown in A is a great reason for an A team to consider opting up.)

I think the situation that is far more likely is that Warroad finds itself capable of competing fine in 8AA, doesn’t opt up, then doesn’t do all that well at A state, while watching the 8AA champ do well at AA state. I think in that scenario, Warroad fans might regret not opting up. I don’t think there is much pride in realizing you missed a good chance to do just as well, or better in AA.

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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:00 pm

So if Hermantown opts up do you feel like they should stay in A? I am not sure that the other city teams that I think you are referencing (Cathedral and Mahtomedi, or really any city team left in A) will be good enough to convince them that they can't win it all. Is there another team in A that is so dominant to convince them that they don't have a chance?

I think this discussion has come to a head as we just fundamentally disagree on what the more prevalent sentiment in the various scenarios will be. If their team (or any, I have just been using them as an example) takes runner-up, 3rd, etc I don't think they look at a strong showing by Rogers or Moorhead and say dang that could have been us. They take the state tournament berth and shot at a title (EGF is decent but they'd be heavy favorites to win 8A and at a minimum a QF game) over the possibility of getting bounced in the semi's by another top 10 AA team. In summary I don't think a lot of these teams see the risk as justifying the reward, and you feel differently. Like we have discussed you may get to see it first hand in your program. I hope there is a big push to go AA when the time comes but I am not going to be surprised if there isn't. And even in the scenario where Hibbing dominates a year or two and then moves up there will be some of it. Because if the next group runs into some tough teams in 7AA and doesn't make it people will be wondering why their kids had to get bounced in sections, when the kids a couple years older got to go to state. I think in some form or another you have expressed this observation in the past as well. And because of this I am just not sure that we can break this cycle of wanting to push the dominant A team to AA, aside from going Tier 1/2 again.

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:03 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:00 pm
So if Hermantown opts up do you feel like they should stay in A? I am not sure that the other city teams that I think you are referencing (Cathedral and Mahtomedi, or really any city team left in A) will be good enough to convince them that they can't win it all. Is there another team in A that is so dominant to convince them that they don't have a chance?

I don't think Warroad "should" opt to AA at all, not at least until they win another title and start competing well with top AA teams on a regular basis, which we've not yet seen. But again, if they think they can win 8AA, then why not? I don't see a downside to that, but you seem to, so we disagree. And speculating that Hermantown will opt up is quite a jump. They're so obviously capable of doing well in AA it seems like a no-brainer, but it has been this way for a while now, so we'll see what happens if and when they do opt up. Basically, I wouldn't worry about anyone calling for Warroad to opt up as long as Hermantown is still in A.

I think Mahtomedi, EGF, and metro private school du jour are also roadblocks for Warroad. So much so that I certainly wouldn't plan any victory parades for the Warriors just yet, but maybe they turn last year's disappointment into fuel for a title run this year. Again, I hope it happens.


I think this discussion has come to a head as we just fundamentally disagree on what the more prevalent sentiment in the various scenarios will be. If their team (or any, I have just been using them as an example) takes runner-up, 3rd, etc I don't think they look at a strong showing by Rogers or Moorhead and say dang that could have been us. They take the state tournament berth and shot at a title (EGF is decent but they'd be heavy favorites to win 8A and at a minimum a QF game) over the possibility of getting bounced in the semi's by another top 10 AA team. In summary I don't think a lot of these teams see the risk as justifying the reward, and you feel differently. Like we have discussed you may get to see it first hand in your program. I hope there is a big push to go AA when the time comes but I am not going to be surprised if there isn't. And even in the scenario where Hibbing dominates a year or two and then moves up there will be some of it. Because if the next group runs into some tough teams in 7AA and doesn't make it people will be wondering why their kids had to get bounced in sections, when the kids a couple years older got to go to state. I think in some form or another you have expressed this observation in the past as well. And because of this I am just not sure that we can break this cycle of wanting to push the dominant A team to AA, aside from going Tier 1/2 again.
Sounds good. You seem to believe Warroad is going to become a dominant A team, while I'm taking a "believe it when I see it" attitude, especially given last year's result when they were the top seed at state. If and when Warroad becomes a dominant A team, then we should definitely re-visit this.

Lastly, I would bet a ton of money that there are more than a few people in Hermantown (fans, players, parents), that see them beat the AA champ almost every year and think "Man, I wish we would have went for it in AA." You seem to think this isn't the case, but I guess we just disagree.

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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by east hockey » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:15 pm

A helpful hint for some--if you want to reply to a post, use the "reply with quote" feature and make sure that what you are stating follows the [/quote] at the end of the post you're replying to. Otherwise, we can't tell where the previous post ends and yours starts! I fixed rainier's last post to reflect how it should work and look.

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Getitright
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:24 pm

What’s up with Joey Pierce?

Wise Old Man
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Wise Old Man » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:54 am

There are two simple ways/rule changes to fix the Hermantown issue. One by Minnesota Hockey, the other by the MSHSL -- I've stated this before but, will do so again. The first is for the MSHSL to create a rule that prevents a Class "A" school from scheduling games against "AA" level teams outside of their conference. That would leave Hermantown with only Grand Rapids, Cloquet, and Duluth Marshall to play as "AA" teams from a conference standpoint. Heck, it would probably even still be effective if you allowed them to play just a single game each season against each "AA" team in the corresponding numbered "AA" section. Meaning, that would add Duluth East, Anoka, Forest Lake, Andover, and Elk River as possible "AA" teams they could play during the regular season.

Next, if Minnesota Hockey isn't willing to go back to the... "you play where you live, not where you go to school" eligibility rule, then create a rule that requires your youth teams to play at the "A" traveling level and, only allows you to play "AA' PW and Bantam teams in your own district AND...only twice a season in district league play only. Meaning, you can't enter any tournaments that would possibly provide an opportunity to play any other "AA" teams. And yes, I'm well aware that currently, Minnesota Hockey views the "A" and "AA" levels as "equals" for the regular-season. That would simply have to change for any youth program whose associated high school chooses to play at the Class "A" level due to MSHSL enrollment parameters.

These changes would force Hermantown to "AA" at the high school level within three years. Why you ask? Because the reason why Hermantown is as popular a "destination" for local youth hockey open-enrollees, as well as actual "move-in" transfers at the high school grade levels, is because it not only has a virtual automatic trip to state every season, but it also has one of the top 10 most challenging regular-season schedules of any team in the state at either class. Otherwise stated, they get to have their cake and eat it too. Again, as has been stated a million times...if your top Pee Wee and Bantam teams are not only playing at the "AA" level every year, but ranked in the respective top 10 and playing in the respective state tournament almost every year, why isn't your high school team at that level? So, if your high school team refuses to move up when they should obviously do so, then MH will limit the quality of your youth schedule until you act in the overall "best interest of the game" and move your high school up. Period.

This is strictly about chasing the "high school state tournament experience". Or, otherwise stated, the world's greatest level of "athletic entitlement syndrome" in the history of the human race. 8)

edgeless2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by edgeless2 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:47 am

:wink: is this dude still allowed to post??

norcon
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:28 am

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by norcon » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:20 am

Wise Old Man wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:54 am
There are two simple ways/rule changes to fix the Hermantown issue. One by Minnesota Hockey, the other by the MSHSL -- I've stated this before but, will do so again. The first is for the MSHSL to create a rule that prevents a Class "A" school from scheduling games against "AA" level teams outside of their conference. That would leave Hermantown with only Grand Rapids, Cloquet, and Duluth Marshall to play as "AA" teams from a conference standpoint. Heck, it would probably even still be effective if you allowed them to play just a single game each season against each "AA" team in the corresponding numbered "AA" section. Meaning, that would add Duluth East, Anoka, Forest Lake, Andover, and Elk River as possible "AA" teams they could play during the regular season.

Next, if Minnesota Hockey isn't willing to go back to the... "you play where you live, not where you go to school" eligibility rule, then create a rule that requires your youth teams to play at the "A" traveling level and, only allows you to play "AA' PW and Bantam teams in your own district AND...only twice a season in district league play only. Meaning, you can't enter any tournaments that would possibly provide an opportunity to play any other "AA" teams. And yes, I'm well aware that currently, Minnesota Hockey views the "A" and "AA" levels as "equals" for the regular-season. That would simply have to change for any youth program whose associated high school chooses to play at the Class "A" level due to MSHSL enrollment parameters.

These changes would force Hermantown to "AA" at the high school level within three years. Why you ask? Because the reason why Hermantown is as popular a "destination" for local youth hockey open-enrollees, as well as actual "move-in" transfers at the high school grade levels, is because it not only has a virtual automatic trip to state every season, but it also has one of the top 10 most challenging regular-season schedules of any team in the state at either class. Otherwise stated, they get to have their cake and eat it too. Again, as has been stated a million times...if your top Pee Wee and Bantam teams are not only playing at the "AA" level every year, but ranked in the respective top 10 and playing in the respective state tournament almost every year, why isn't your high school team at that level? So, if your high school team refuses to move up when they should obviously do so, then MH will limit the quality of your youth schedule until you act in the overall "best interest of the game" and move your high school up. Period.

This is strictly about chasing the "high school state tournament experience". Or, otherwise stated, the world's greatest level of "athletic entitlement syndrome" in the history of the human race. 8)
Sounds good. I like how coach Randolph dealt with this...don’t schedule them until they opt up! He wouldn’t be playing them this season either if it wasn’t for the covid issues.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by elliott70 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:01 am

norcon wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:20 am
Wise Old Man wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:54 am
There are two simple ways/rule changes to fix the Hermantown issue. One by Minnesota Hockey, the other by the MSHSL -- I've stated this before but, will do so again. The first is for the MSHSL to create a rule that prevents a Class "A" school from scheduling games against "AA" level teams outside of their conference. That would leave Hermantown with only Grand Rapids, Cloquet, and Duluth Marshall to play as "AA" teams from a conference standpoint. Heck, it would probably even still be effective if you allowed them to play just a single game each season against each "AA" team in the corresponding numbered "AA" section. Meaning, that would add Duluth East, Anoka, Forest Lake, Andover, and Elk River as possible "AA" teams they could play during the regular season.

Next, if Minnesota Hockey isn't willing to go back to the... "you play where you live, not where you go to school" eligibility rule, then create a rule that requires your youth teams to play at the "A" traveling level and, only allows you to play "AA' PW and Bantam teams in your own district AND...only twice a season in district league play only. Meaning, you can't enter any tournaments that would possibly provide an opportunity to play any other "AA" teams. And yes, I'm well aware that currently, Minnesota Hockey views the "A" and "AA" levels as "equals" for the regular-season. That would simply have to change for any youth program whose associated high school chooses to play at the Class "A" level due to MSHSL enrollment parameters.

These changes would force Hermantown to "AA" at the high school level within three years. Why you ask? Because the reason why Hermantown is as popular a "destination" for local youth hockey open-enrollees, as well as actual "move-in" transfers at the high school grade levels, is because it not only has a virtual automatic trip to state every season, but it also has one of the top 10 most challenging regular-season schedules of any team in the state at either class. Otherwise stated, they get to have their cake and eat it too. Again, as has been stated a million times...if your top Pee Wee and Bantam teams are not only playing at the "AA" level every year, but ranked in the respective top 10 and playing in the respective state tournament almost every year, why isn't your high school team at that level? So, if your high school team refuses to move up when they should obviously do so, then MH will limit the quality of your youth schedule until you act in the overall "best interest of the game" and move your high school up. Period.

This is strictly about chasing the "high school state tournament experience". Or, otherwise stated, the world's greatest level of "athletic entitlement syndrome" in the history of the human race. 8)
Sounds good. I like how coach Randolph dealt with this...don’t schedule them until they opt up! He wouldn’t be playing them this season either if it wasn’t for the covid issues.
Not a good solution on either count.

rainier2
Posts: 710
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:58 am

Was told yesterday that Hermantown is recruiting players on the Hibbing pee wee team. I guess they like to tell them "We can develop you." Hopefully these Hermantown recruiters were told to look up the names Scott Perunovich and Adam Johnson, so they can see Hibbing's development is perfectly capable.

Again, Hermantown doesn't develop talent, they collect it.

Sickening.

Getitright
Posts: 91
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:31 am

Those who read my posts may feel I am a Hermantown apologist. I am really not. They should move to AA. I hate kids moving there as they near or are in high school. But talent collectors and not developers? How unfair, off base, and close minded is that? I agree they have warts. But your hate is getting in the way of common sense reasoning. Drew leblanc, chad Huttel , Adam Krause, kole koepke, Jesse jacques, Ryan sandelin, Neil Pionk, Blake biondi, Samberg and Aamodt [never played outside Hermantown), Jared kolquist, Kyle Schmidt , soon to be D1 Zam plante and ty Hansen and possibly Adyn dowd off this years team. Probably some I’ve missed. Really who in northern mn comes close not even including the others who have joined in later?

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:01 am

Getitright wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:31 am
Those who read my posts may feel I am a Hermantown apologist. I am really not. They should move to AA. I hate kids moving there as they near or are in high school. But talent collectors and not developers? How unfair, off base, and close minded is that? I agree they have warts. But your hate is getting in the way of common sense reasoning. Drew leblanc, chad Huttel , Adam Krause, kole koepke, Jesse jacques, Ryan sandelin, Neil Pionk, Blake biondi, Samberg and Aamodt [never played outside Hermantown), Jared kolquist, Kyle Schmidt , soon to be D1 Zam plante and ty Hansen and possibly Adyn dowd off this years team. Probably some I’ve missed. Really who in northern mn comes close not even including the others who have joined in later?
Yes, they do have plenty of good players that aren't transfers, but how good would Hermantown be without the transfers and open-enrollees? Not that much better than other good community programs like Warroad, Alex, Hibbing, TRF, LF, etc. Take the transfers and open enrollees off that 2016 team (Gotz, Watkins, Aaamodt, Samberg, Judnick) and they're no better than the 2016 Hibbing squad led by Perunovich.

Hibbing-developed D1 players during same time period: Scott Perunovich (NHL), Adam Johnson (NHL), Nick DeCenzo, Aaron Jamnick, Anthony Decenzo, Jarrett Lee, Ryan Ullan, Eric Gotz, Darian Gotz, Christian Galatz. Not too far behind Hermantown, especially if you take out the Hermantown players that didn't live in the Hermantown school district.

If Hibbing got the 3 best players from Virginia every year, like Hermantown does with Proctor, that'd be a huge boost in talent, and the enrollment would only go up by 3 kids. But, Virginia is 26 miles away from Hibbing, not bordering each other, like Proctor and Hermantown. And I heard about a Virginia parent that considered moving his talented kid to Hibbing, but decided not to because they knew it would hurt their business! Would that be a concern in the Duluth area?

Jeffy has posted previously on how when a Duluth area mite or squirt showed promise, the Hermantown recruiting machine descended upon that kid in a hurry. We also know the recruiting got so bad there it was addressed at an association meeting. The recruiting continues today. If Hermantown is so unbelievably good at developing players, then why do they feel the need to recruit already-established good players? Why don't we hear about them stalking Pee Wee B2 players? Those would be the kids that could really benefit from the Hermantown development machine, I'd say.

My point is that their reputation as developers is way, way overblown. A huge chunk, maybe half, of their talent was known to be good before they ever put on a Hawk jersey for the first time.

They get boatloads of open enrolled and transfer talent to the point of beating the AA champ nearly every year, have an almost guaranteed trip to state every year, and use that to hoodwink area kids and parents into thinking it is all because of their magical development machine.
Last edited by rainier2 on Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Corn Cobb
Posts: 568
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Location: Minnesota

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Corn Cobb » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:06 am

Wise Old Man wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:54 am
There are two simple ways/rule changes to fix the Hermantown issue. One by Minnesota Hockey, the other by the MSHSL -- I've stated this before but, will do so again. The first is for the MSHSL to create a rule that prevents a Class "A" school from scheduling games against "AA" level teams outside of their conference. That would leave Hermantown with only Grand Rapids, Cloquet, and Duluth Marshall to play as "AA" teams from a conference standpoint. Heck, it would probably even still be effective if you allowed them to play just a single game each season against each "AA" team in the corresponding numbered "AA" section. Meaning, that would add Duluth East, Anoka, Forest Lake, Andover, and Elk River as possible "AA" teams they could play during the regular season.

Next, if Minnesota Hockey isn't willing to go back to the... "you play where you live, not where you go to school" eligibility rule, then create a rule that requires your youth teams to play at the "A" traveling level and, only allows you to play "AA' PW and Bantam teams in your own district AND...only twice a season in district league play only. Meaning, you can't enter any tournaments that would possibly provide an opportunity to play any other "AA" teams. And yes, I'm well aware that currently, Minnesota Hockey views the "A" and "AA" levels as "equals" for the regular-season. That would simply have to change for any youth program whose associated high school chooses to play at the Class "A" level due to MSHSL enrollment parameters.

These changes would force Hermantown to "AA" at the high school level within three years. Why you ask? Because the reason why Hermantown is as popular a "destination" for local youth hockey open-enrollees, as well as actual "move-in" transfers at the high school grade levels, is because it not only has a virtual automatic trip to state every season, but it also has one of the top 10 most challenging regular-season schedules of any team in the state at either class. Otherwise stated, they get to have their cake and eat it too. Again, as has been stated a million times...if your top Pee Wee and Bantam teams are not only playing at the "AA" level every year, but ranked in the respective top 10 and playing in the respective state tournament almost every year, why isn't your high school team at that level? So, if your high school team refuses to move up when they should obviously do so, then MH will limit the quality of your youth schedule until you act in the overall "best interest of the game" and move your high school up. Period.

This is strictly about chasing the "high school state tournament experience". Or, otherwise stated, the world's greatest level of "athletic entitlement syndrome" in the history of the human race. 8)
Good ideas and well stated.

Getitright
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:22 am

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:30 am

Rainer2. Your comment was “they are a collector not a developer.” You are plain wrong. Your hate is apparent as even the most anti Hermantown people will grant the fact they have done plenty of developing in their own. I am not comparing Hibbing. They have developed some very nice players. That’s a good thing. Hermantown has warts no question. But please stay away from those insane comments. Those get in the way of the valid ones. It’s also unfortunate that people can’t find good things being done while always finding the negative. Guess that’s where we are at. There’s very little middle ground these days.

Getitright
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:22 am

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:06 am

Circling back to the Joey pierce question. Missed the last half of the 1st denfeld game and don’t think he played last night. Anyone hear anything?

rainier2
Posts: 710
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:15 am

Getitright wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:30 am
Rainer2. Your comment was “they are a collector not a developer.” You are plain wrong. Your hate is apparent as even the most anti Hermantown people will grant the fact they have done plenty of developing in their own. I am not comparing Hibbing. They have developed some very nice players. That’s a good thing. Hermantown has warts no question. But please stay away from those insane comments. Those get in the way of the valid ones. It’s also unfortunate that people can’t find good things being done while always finding the negative. Guess that’s where we are at. There’s very little middle ground these days.
Fair enough. You seem to be a reasonable Hermantown fan, but the problem is, from what I've seen and heard, you are the minority.

What you'll see on social media, and in conversations with most Hermantown people, and certainly from the recruiters is "Look at all of our titles and state tourney appearances! Look at this huge list of D1 stars we've developed! And we do it all with only 600 kids! Your program has about the same amount of kids, but you're not even close to us, so your programs sucks."

They don't mention the turbo-boosting effect transfers and open-enrollment have. They don't point out that without this continuous talent infusion--something much, much harder for a true community team to do--that they would be only a little better than your Warroads, Hibbings, Alexes, TRFs, etc. And they certainly don't explain how enrollment is meaningless for a school in a metro area with open enrollment, something made plain by Gentry having an incredible team with an enrollment of only 54 kids!!!!

The problem is the unreasonable Hermantown folks perpetuate this myth and then some parents and kids believe it, and think every school of 600 kids should be able to beat the AA champ every year, and so obviously I need to leave my "crappy" hometown program behind. It doesn't hurt that this "incredible development" comes with a guaranteed trip to the state title game almost every year. This, in my opinion, is the "scholastic bullying" and destruction of 7A hockey that Scott Pionk was talking about at that Hermantown school board meeting.

I almost found it funny when I heard Hermantown was recruiting Hibbing pee wees.(almost) Because if I were a Hibbing parent, I'd be thinking "We beat your PWAA team 7-2 this year. Why in the world would I think your program is better at development?"

Again, I appreciate that you are reasonable, but it would be nice if the other 95% of Hermantown folks were too.

Puck8
Posts: 103
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Puck8 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:55 am

rainier2 wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:15 am
something made plain by Gentry having an incredible team with an enrollment of only 54 kids!!!
Umm...Good example of how bad data that starts somewhere just carries through as fact. Probably doesn’t change the impression of those who see Gentry as an evil-doer, but enrollment is closer to 300. But why let facts muddy up the waters of opinion? Tip of the iceberg of the bad info that I’ve seen “out there”, but that’s a whole different discussion.

OK - resume whatever it is you were on the brink of solving.

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