The Hermantown Thread

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rainier
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:13 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:35 pm
rainier wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:26 pm
For most community teams, transfers and open enrollment play a tiny role in the fortunes of their programs, yet it is huge for Hermantown.
For all community teams the additions and subtraction at HS level plays a massive role. Not tiny at all. Departures to Midget/Junior hockey, private schools, open enrollment, and kids moving in/out. Huge all the way around.
Sorry, I should clarify that transfers and open enrollment are not huge factors that Class A community teams use to build their programs.
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O-townClown
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by O-townClown » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:08 pm

rainier wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:13 pm
Sorry, I should clarify that transfers and open enrollment are not huge factors that Class A community teams use to build their programs.
For sure. By definition Class A teams are generally not near population centers.

It is real weird Hermantown is still playing Class A at HS given the success of their youth teams at PW & B AA. Oh well, the Patrick Reed of Minnesota HS hockey. Every good story needs a villain.
Be kind. Rewind.

rainier
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:16 pm

WestMetro wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:34 pm
74 page thread and still going strong ! Well done boys !
Shucks, Westy, none of us can take any credit for this pinnacle of human achievement. It all belongs to the cabal of decision makers in Hermantown that keep this farce going year after year! :D
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

Rails Hockey
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Rails Hockey » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:35 pm

Getitright wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:59 pm
They lived in pike lake and twig. Never set foot in a school in proctor. Never skated in proctor arena other than with a Hermantown jersey on. They have both been life long members of the Hermantown community. If you know there story, samberg dad never played hockey and Aamodt never played beyond jv. Point is they did not enroll in Hermantown school because of the hockey program. Neither is a byproduct of another associations development. While there are stories of moves directly due to hockey after having started elsewhere (ie gocz brothers, Pierce , and to a less extent Watkins), these two guys are Hermantown thru and thru.
Not that it matters at this point but I’m pretty sure Aamodt started in Twig. I don’t know about Samberg but the MN Hockey rule was that you had to play where you lived until they changed it in 2009. Not sure how they could have played in Hermantown the whole way through.

O-townClown
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by O-townClown » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:45 pm

Help me out here. Where's a kid supposed to play if he lives in Twig? Isn't it only natural he'd eventually end up playing HS hockey at either Hermantown or Duluth East. Maybe Marshall 8 years ago.
Be kind. Rewind.

Rails Hockey
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Rails Hockey » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:47 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:45 pm
Help me out here. Where's a kid supposed to play if he lives in Twig? Isn't it only natural he'd eventually end up playing HS hockey at either Hermantown or Duluth East. Maybe Marshall 8 years ago.
Twig is in the Proctor School District. They play in Twig through Squirts but can try out for Proctor Squirt A’s if they choose. PeeWees through High School in Proctor.
Last edited by Rails Hockey on Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

karl(east)
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by karl(east) » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:07 pm

Goose21 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:36 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:51 pm
Question I was discussing with a friend yesterday: if Hermantown hadn’t become the hockey destination that it is, would East still be struggling to the same extent? I understand there are other reasons for young families to move to Hermantown rather than Duluth, but it seems like the trajectories of the respective programs are linked, since there is only so much talent to go around in the area. 10 to 15 years ago there was plenty of talent to stock East, Marshall, and Hermantown (less so Denfeld), but it seems those days are a distant memory.
I think to some extent that Hermantown’s rise is related to East’s Decline. Hermantown has drawn talent from other places. While some of that talent may have played for East, some likely would have stayed home or found other programs. Hermantown deserves credit for developing talent, especially with their offseason programs and influence.
The East program and DAHA also need to have some accountability in not keeping up or taking the steps need to be a top program.
Finally, I think the ever increasing requirements to be an upper tier program has hit East like it has many other out-state programs.
Interesting question. It's probably at least something of a factor. East in the 90s and 00s attracted quite a few transfers and such; probably never to the extent Hermantown has in recent years, but Hermantown's rise gave them competition for some of those players that didn't exist previously. In some ways Hermantown could be an even more attractive destination, with an easier road to State and a championship, less competition for roster spots (at least until recent years), and a smaller school that was more homey for a kid transferring from, say, a Range town. On the flip side, after bleeding a decent amount of talent to Marshall in the 00s, East basically completely shut that door over the past decade. (I think that has something to do with why the 10s were a better decade for East than the 00s.) I certainly don't think the dramatic exodus of players from East over the past 2-3 years is in any way Hermantown-related, and Callaway is the only one who has left East (of any consequence, anyway) who ended up a Hawk.

So, for the most part, I think East's struggles are unrelated, and in many ways self-inflicted through the Randolph drama and some semi-related chaos at the youth level. (Opinions vary, to put it mildly, over who to blame for all of that.) It also just seems like it is now harder for the Duluth area to stock 3+ good teams. That will probably happen when an area's school-age population is relatively flat and other places are growing, as mentioned above. The next few years will be fascinating for East...can the new staff attract talent? Are the current youth struggles a blip, or the new normal? The lack of success is kind of mind-boggling given their numbers.

O-townClown
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by O-townClown » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:18 pm

Rails Hockey wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:47 pm
Twig is in the Proctor School District. They play in Twig through Squirts but can try out for Proctor Squirt A’s if they choose. PeeWees through High School in Proctor.
Thanks. Proctor is basically Hopkins. Doesn't really matter to the Hopkins High team how good one kid is when they end up at Minnetonka. Why would the next great player from Twig choose Proctor? I doubt they will.
Be kind. Rewind.

Getitright
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:55 am

Again. Knowing Aamodts and sambergs their decision had little to do with hockey. The logistics and perhaps personal preference is the reason they ended up in hermantown. Any local people know you basically drive right by hermantiwn schools to go to proctor. There are many open enrollees at hermantown from twig and pike lake that do not play hockey simply because logistically it makes more sense.
Another point I would like to make is a friend of mine had a kid play at east recently who felt he was not being treated fairly. He knew I know andrews so asked if I’d inquire. Kid could could have helped them. Andrews declined. Same thing happened several years ago with plant coaching. Another aquantance asked me to inquire. Kid was also a nice player. Plant declined. Point being I’m sure some hermantown parents encourage other outside parents of kids to come join. No question. I am also sure the coaches have not and do not recruit kids.

Slap Shot
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Slap Shot » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:26 pm

Rails Hockey wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:09 am
headsupsticksdown wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:39 pm
rainier wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:50 am
So I see Hermantown has East's former goalie.

Anybody know what other free agents they were able to acquire this offseason?
Believe he's the only one. The rest of the fallout from the East kids ended up at GR and Northstar, I believe....
I only count 9 transfers on their Roster this year, including the top two Goalies. Most came in Youth.
Most of the 9 transfers or most of the remainder of the roster came in youth?

Rails Hockey
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Rails Hockey » Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:20 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:26 pm
Rails Hockey wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:09 am
headsupsticksdown wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:39 pm


Believe he's the only one. The rest of the fallout from the East kids ended up at GR and Northstar, I believe....
I only count 9 transfers on their Roster this year, including the top two Goalies. Most came in Youth.
Most of the 9 transfers or most of the remainder of the roster came in youth?
I was referring to the transfers. Looks like all but Callaway transferred during Youth Hockey. Also another Soph from Denfeld not listed on the Hub so looks like 10 total actually. Probably fewer than previous years.

Getitright
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:13 pm

Be interesting to know how many kids at East, Denfeld an othe surrounding schools, other than Hermantown moved school districts after they were born.

Stang5280
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Stang5280 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:27 pm

karl(east) wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:07 pm
Goose21 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:36 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:51 pm
Question I was discussing with a friend yesterday: if Hermantown hadn’t become the hockey destination that it is, would East still be struggling to the same extent? I understand there are other reasons for young families to move to Hermantown rather than Duluth, but it seems like the trajectories of the respective programs are linked, since there is only so much talent to go around in the area. 10 to 15 years ago there was plenty of talent to stock East, Marshall, and Hermantown (less so Denfeld), but it seems those days are a distant memory.
I think to some extent that Hermantown’s rise is related to East’s Decline. Hermantown has drawn talent from other places. While some of that talent may have played for East, some likely would have stayed home or found other programs. Hermantown deserves credit for developing talent, especially with their offseason programs and influence.
The East program and DAHA also need to have some accountability in not keeping up or taking the steps need to be a top program.
Finally, I think the ever increasing requirements to be an upper tier program has hit East like it has many other out-state programs.
Interesting question. It's probably at least something of a factor. East in the 90s and 00s attracted quite a few transfers and such; probably never to the extent Hermantown has in recent years, but Hermantown's rise gave them competition for some of those players that didn't exist previously. In some ways Hermantown could be an even more attractive destination, with an easier road to State and a championship, less competition for roster spots (at least until recent years), and a smaller school that was more homey for a kid transferring from, say, a Range town. On the flip side, after bleeding a decent amount of talent to Marshall in the 00s, East basically completely shut that door over the past decade. (I think that has something to do with why the 10s were a better decade for East than the 00s.) I certainly don't think the dramatic exodus of players from East over the past 2-3 years is in any way Hermantown-related, and Callaway is the only one who has left East (of any consequence, anyway) who ended up a Hawk.

So, for the most part, I think East's struggles are unrelated, and in many ways self-inflicted through the Randolph drama and some semi-related chaos at the youth level. (Opinions vary, to put it mildly, over who to blame for all of that.) It also just seems like it is now harder for the Duluth area to stock 3+ good teams. That will probably happen when an area's school-age population is relatively flat and other places are growing, as mentioned above. The next few years will be fascinating for East...can the new staff attract talent? Are the current youth struggles a blip, or the new normal? The lack of success is kind of mind-boggling given their numbers.
Thank you, Karl and Goose. I appreciate the insights. It is interesting to hear how DAHA is such a mess now, which doesn’t bode well for the near future. The success of the Bantams was largely irrelevant in the past, given how much Randolph would call up Bantam-eligible players, but that doesn’t seem to be an issue now and the system is just down as a whole. Hermantown is light years ahead of Duluth at the youth level right now, so the gap will likely continue, if not widen at the HS level.

headsupsticksdown
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by headsupsticksdown » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:39 pm

Rails Hockey wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:20 pm
Slap Shot wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:26 pm
Rails Hockey wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:09 am


I only count 9 transfers on their Roster this year, including the top two Goalies. Most came in Youth.
Most of the 9 transfers or most of the remainder of the roster came in youth?
I was referring to the transfers. Looks like all but Callaway transferred during Youth Hockey. Also another Soph from Denfeld not listed on the Hub so looks like 10 total actually. Probably fewer than previous years.
Not totally directed at you, Rails, but considering your ID, it's pretty obvious you're right in the thick of this discussion. Without getting into too many details, I live outside the US and yet I make it a "thing" to bring my boy out to the 218 for various skates and camps, meaning I have spent a significant time in HTown and St. Luke's. At first, it was entertaining seeing how all the kids kind of grouped together--you had all the navy/gold, green/white, red/white mixed together and having a great time in the early stages. Then after a few years you'd see hardly any navy/gold socks and a lot of the local Duluth associations would then venture off into other camps that were directed at their specific associations. From what I saw, the green/white kids seemed to be consistently skating all over the place, but the HTown and East kids with the exception of a few would be skating somewhere else. The talent of the kids from HTown and GA (just an example) were typically clearly ahead of what I saw from the kids in Proctor, but at the youth level, who really cares, right? However, the difference in skill level and intensity on the ice clearly suffers and if you consider your kid to be a strong or above average skater, it'd be hard to argue the decision to skate against better competition. Again, being an "outsider", I probably have 1% of the view of the local folks out there, but despite all the politics and craziness of what goes on in say HTown, their program builds a complete player that skates hard, scores and preaches defensive intensity. Proctor has always been viewed as emphasizing the offensive side of things with little to no defensive skill building, however, I'd say this has changed over the past 2-3 years. I really honestly hope Proctor pulls through as I've met tons of great kids and parents up there, but with HTown right across the tracks, it'll be like trying to convince a QwikTrip honk that Holiday is better and vice versa...

I've always defended HTown as a community and program because quite frankly unless you've seen it first hand, you really have no idea how much they put into that program. The volunteers, kids, association and entire community pretty much bust their arse so simply saying that they are only what they are due to "transfers" is unfair IMO. From SQ to Bantam's, there's talent up and down the roster. Kids come into that program/association because of it's reputation and the opportunities it presents. If you don't like it, build up your program and offer an alternative because quite frankly loyalty these days unfortunately means nothing sadly...

Where I am in agreement is the A/AA discussion. When you're literally outscoring your opponents 120+ to 5G's against season after season, you have to seriously sit down and ask yourself if that's the right decision. It's ridiculous seeing HTown rip off 40-50 shots/game against A opponents time and time again. It's pretty obvious that they *should* be skating in AA, but I won't hold my breath...

Rails Hockey
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Rails Hockey » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:48 pm

Great to hear that you bring your kid up here to skate. It’s a great Hockey environment and always fun to see as many kids from outside the area as possible. As far as “being in the thick of the discussion” I don’t take this stuff nearly as seriously as I used to. I honestly don’t really care what Hermantown is doing or who transfers where anymore. I enjoy watching my kid and his teammates play and that’s pretty much where it ends for me at this point. The only reason I’m involved at all in this discussion is that I’ve watched every current High School kid in the area play since Mites. I know where all of them started and where they all ended up. So if I see inaccurate information or if people have questions sometimes I chime in. But it’s not very often.

You make some good points and I don’t think I disagree with any of them. From my perspective, Proctor is a great place to play and things are definitely looking up. Our Mite numbers doubled in the three years after the new arena opened. Our PeeWees went to State last year and our Bantams have a good chance at going this year. Our High School kids can skate all Summer for free. I can’t think of any kid that has left in the last 4-5 years. We have some groups coming up that should be really fun to watch. I’ve met some great people and lifelong friends. And we definitely have a lot of fun. It won’t be much longer and my kid will be done and I sure will miss watching all these kids play. Hockey will end for 95% of these kids after High School. When you realize how short it is you don’t have nearly as much time to worry about what other people are doing. Just my .02 and probably all it’s worth….

headsupsticksdown
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by headsupsticksdown » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:27 pm

Rails Hockey wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:48 pm
Great to hear that you bring your kid up here to skate. It’s a great Hockey environment and always fun to see as many kids from outside the area as possible. As far as “being in the thick of the discussion” I don’t take this stuff nearly as seriously as I used to. I honestly don’t really care what Hermantown is doing or who transfers where anymore. I enjoy watching my kid and his teammates play and that’s pretty much where it ends for me at this point. The only reason I’m involved at all in this discussion is that I’ve watched every current High School kid in the area play since Mites. I know where all of them started and where they all ended up. So if I see inaccurate information or if people have questions sometimes I chime in. But it’s not very often.

You make some good points and I don’t think I disagree with any of them. From my perspective, Proctor is a great place to play and things are definitely looking up. Our Mite numbers doubled in the three years after the new arena opened. Our PeeWees went to State last year and our Bantams have a good chance at going this year. Our High School kids can skate all Summer for free. I can’t think of any kid that has left in the last 4-5 years. We have some groups coming up that should be really fun to watch. I’ve met some great people and lifelong friends. And we definitely have a lot of fun. It won’t be much longer and my kid will be done and I sure will miss watching all these kids play. Hockey will end for 95% of these kids after High School. When you realize how short it is you don’t have nearly as much time to worry about what other people are doing. Just my .02 and probably all it’s worth….
Yeah, I put high value in not having him skate within a bubble and skating with different kids from different associations and coaches. It’s been fun running into kids he’s skated with up North in the Cities and vice versa. I really hope the different associations and youth programs can somehow bind together to reinvigorate the culture up there vs. constantly worrying about who was going to end up where; let the kids bond on their own and play for the entire 218, but sadly parents will continue to ruin everything.

I’m thankful my kid has been fairly welcomed at Luke’s, HTown, and outdoor at GA, regardless of what colors he was wearing! That’s what it’s all about IMO.

Getitright
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:30 pm

Love that perspective Rail. It’s here and gone before you know it and at the end of the day it’s just a game and everyone moves on.

Dog
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Dog » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:27 pm

Getitright wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:55 am
Again. Knowing Aamodts and sambergs their decision had little to do with hockey. The logistics and perhaps personal preference is the reason they ended up in hermantown. Any local people know you basically drive right by hermantiwn schools to go to proctor. There are many open enrollees at hermantown from twig and pike lake that do not play hockey simply because logistically it makes more sense.
Another point I would like to make is a friend of mine had a kid play at east recently who felt he was not being treated fairly. He knew I know andrews so asked if I’d inquire. Kid could could have helped them. Andrews declined. Same thing happened several years ago with plant coaching. Another aquantance asked me to inquire. Kid was also a nice player. Plant declined. Point being I’m sure some hermantown parents encourage other outside parents of kids to come join. No question. I am also sure the coaches have not and do not recruit kids.
Something about your story doesn't make sense. You're presenting yourself like some kind of outsider who just happens to know some coaches but it's not quite ringing right it my ears.

You stated: "I’m sure some Hermantown parents encourage other outside parents of kids to come join" like a mythical statement of "there might be bigfoot out there...somewhere...I guess". But in the breath before you admitted to participating in this process by talking to the HT coaches on the behalf of kids from another organization. A theory isn't apocryphal when you admit to engaging in the act of it yourself. It reads like you're closer to the situation than you might be willing to confess to. I couldn't help but read it and feel that it's startin' to feel squatchy around here.

Are you sure of it...because you're one of them? "I know they don't recruit because I tried with a couple of my buddies kids and I wasn't sucessful" seems like a lazy trope. Maybe they didn't pass muster. Or maybe they knew if they displayed any discernible interest you'd talk about it in a forum.

Getitright
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:10 pm

Ok Dog, I took the bait. First, a parent of a player from outside Hermantown approaches me because I may know someone in Hermantown program. Just how is that recruiting? Neither the coaches nor I solicited this.. I know plant and andrews only as acquaintances, by no means as friends. I am far removed from that program. Regarding my comment on what parents do in the summer, I was surmising. I have 0 direct knowledge. That program has warts and is far from perfect. But a few out there appear so blinded by hate a jealousy of the program, they throw things out there that oftentimes holds no truth. I feel it’s important to point that out no matter what side you are on. My point is, they have clearly benefited from kids coming after having been developed elsewhere. I don’t like this. But don’t make dumb claims that the coaches are recruiting or that so and so are not from there if they moved there when they were 6 or 7 or those who may have open enrolled in 1st grade. That is not close to the same as a bantam or high school move in. As has been pointed out several times on this post. 75 pages? Really? Let’s find something else to spend our time discussing.

Dog
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Dog » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:00 am

Getitright wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:10 pm
Ok Dog, I took the bait. First, a parent of a player from outside Hermantown approaches me because I may know someone in Hermantown program. Just how is that recruiting? Neither the coaches nor I solicited this.. I know plant and andrews only as acquaintances, by no means as friends. I am far removed from that program. Regarding my comment on what parents do in the summer, I was surmising. I have 0 direct knowledge. That program has warts and is far from perfect. But a few out there appear so blinded by hate a jealousy of the program, they throw things out there that oftentimes holds no truth. I feel it’s important to point that out no matter what side you are on. My point is, they have clearly benefited from kids coming after having been developed elsewhere. I don’t like this. But don’t make dumb claims that the coaches are recruiting or that so and so are not from there if they moved there when they were 6 or 7 or those who may have open enrolled in 1st grade. That is not close to the same as a bantam or high school move in. As has been pointed out several times on this post. 75 pages? Really? Let’s find something else to spend our time discussing.
Then why are you here?

StanleyCup55
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by StanleyCup55 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:46 am

You’re fooling yourself if you actually think Hermantown doesn’t recruit. All of the top teams do and it’s well known but that shouldn’t be the issue. If the league wanted to enforce the recruiting rule they would and EP, Tonka, Lakeville etc… would all have to stop.

The problem with Hairmantown is they won’t play AA. Would like to see a couple relevant teams compete from the north in 7AA and Hermantown should be the new East.

Getitright
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Getitright » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:01 am

Last post on this subject. Unless you have direct knowledge of Pat Andrews soliciting players outside his program, you really should not make such comments. My assumption, and I’m pretty confident In it is that you don’t. I’m just telling what my experience was first hand. If someone has direct knowledge otherwise, feel free to share that . Otherwise you only look silly.

O-townClown
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by O-townClown » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:48 am

Getitright wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:13 pm
Be interesting to know how many kids ... moved school districts after they were born.
Insular Minnesotans don't think anyone should ever move ever. Great comment.
Be kind. Rewind.

rainier
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:35 am

headsupsticksdown wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:39 pm
Rails Hockey wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:20 pm
Slap Shot wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:26 pm


Most of the 9 transfers or most of the remainder of the roster came in youth?
I was referring to the transfers. Looks like all but Callaway transferred during Youth Hockey. Also another Soph from Denfeld not listed on the Hub so looks like 10 total actually. Probably fewer than previous years.
Not totally directed at you, Rails, but considering your ID, it's pretty obvious you're right in the thick of this discussion. Without getting into too many details, I live outside the US and yet I make it a "thing" to bring my boy out to the 218 for various skates and camps, meaning I have spent a significant time in HTown and St. Luke's. At first, it was entertaining seeing how all the kids kind of grouped together--you had all the navy/gold, green/white, red/white mixed together and having a great time in the early stages. Then after a few years you'd see hardly any navy/gold socks and a lot of the local Duluth associations would then venture off into other camps that were directed at their specific associations. From what I saw, the green/white kids seemed to be consistently skating all over the place, but the HTown and East kids with the exception of a few would be skating somewhere else. The talent of the kids from HTown and GA (just an example) were typically clearly ahead of what I saw from the kids in Proctor, but at the youth level, who really cares, right? However, the difference in skill level and intensity on the ice clearly suffers and if you consider your kid to be a strong or above average skater, it'd be hard to argue the decision to skate against better competition. Again, being an "outsider", I probably have 1% of the view of the local folks out there, but despite all the politics and craziness of what goes on in say HTown, their program builds a complete player that skates hard, scores and preaches defensive intensity. Proctor has always been viewed as emphasizing the offensive side of things with little to no defensive skill building, however, I'd say this has changed over the past 2-3 years. I really honestly hope Proctor pulls through as I've met tons of great kids and parents up there, but with HTown right across the tracks, it'll be like trying to convince a QwikTrip honk that Holiday is better and vice versa...

I've always defended HTown as a community and program because quite frankly unless you've seen it first hand, you really have no idea how much they put into that program. The volunteers, kids, association and entire community pretty much bust their arse so simply saying that they are only what they are due to "transfers" is unfair IMO. From SQ to Bantam's, there's talent up and down the roster. Kids come into that program/association because of it's reputation and the opportunities it presents. If you don't like it, build up your program and offer an alternative because quite frankly loyalty these days unfortunately means nothing sadly...

Where I am in agreement is the A/AA discussion. When you're literally outscoring your opponents 120+ to 5G's against season after season, you have to seriously sit down and ask yourself if that's the right decision. It's ridiculous seeing HTown rip off 40-50 shots/game against A opponents time and time again. It's pretty obvious that they *should* be skating in AA, but I won't hold my breath...
I appreciate your first-hand knowledge and see you also agree they should obviously be AA by now. I agree Hermantown has an excellent program and that the kids, parents, association, etc. put a lot into it. (I lived in Duluth for 15 years and one of my best friends has kids in the Hermantown program, so I am familiar with it.)

But I do have a couple of things I'd like to push back on a bit. From a AA persepctive, everything you say makes perfect sense, but since Hermantown plays in A, and people associated with the program (in what way I don't know) recruit players from surrounding A teams, to me it makes sense to look at Hermantown through the eyes of a non-metro, community-based team. So that's how I'll approach looking at a couple of your statements: not to attack you, just to re-frame it from a small town perspective.

"The volunteers, kids, association and entire community pretty much bust their arse so simply saying that they are only what they are due to "transfers" is unfair IMO."

Hermantown is a great program, but they have reached the level of success they have had because of transfers and open enrollees. This is just an inescapable fact. From very young ages all the way to varsity, the strength of Hermantown teams grows as players that are already known to be good put on a Hawk jersey for the first time. People associated with the program absolutely recruit, and certainly some families just decide on their own to go there because it is a good program, but the fact remains that if Hermantown varsity were made up of players that had lived in Hermantown and worn a Hawk jersey their entire lives, we'd be seeing a team that looks a lot more like TRF or Hibbing than EP or Tonka.

Case in point. Take the incredible 2016 Hawk team that had two fantastic lines and three fantastic defenseman. Two of those forwards and all three of those defenseman were transfers/open enrollees. That leaves you with four top Hermantown-only forwards. At least one of those players would have to be moved to defense, and what are you left with? A team with an excellent top line and 1-2 quality defenseman, which, strangely enough, is exactly the make-up of most good non-metro Class A teams.

Outstate teams are subject to the ups and downs of talent cycles; even the Roseaus, Warroads, and GRs have their down years. During these down years, outstate teams hope for the best, cheer their teams on, and look forward to the next great group that comes through. A down year in Hermantown just means there are more spots to be filled with surrounding talent as the teams progresses towards varsity.



"If you don't like it, build up your program and offer an alternative..."

This one really grinds my gears, because it's been repeated a lot on here, and I've heard it from Hermantonians first hand. I get that you're saying to build up your program so you can attract more players, which is good thing, but this is a concept that really doesn't apply to non-metro teams. What nearby youth association will International Falls attract players from? Should TRF people be prowling (pun intended) Red Lake Falls mite games recruiting kids who show some promise? Does it makes sense for a Greenway or Rock Ridge parent to do an extra hour of winter highway driving every day so their neighbors can shun them for having their kid can go play for a hated rival in Hibbing?

And what really gets me is that in 7A over the past decade, Hibbing, Greenway, Denfeld, Virginia, and even tiny Eveleth have produced some very good-to-excellent teams, and only once was anyone able to break through Hermantown, which only happened because Greenway had two top six forwards and a goalie transfer there that season. Is this what all 7A teams, and outstate teams in general, should be trying to do?

I mean, in 2016, Hibbing had a top 3 Class A team, with a future NHLer, two other D1-caliber players, and two others that played D3. They had all this yet they lost to Hermantown 8-1! This is why when people say "Make your program better", I ask "How much better are they supposed to get??!!"

We may see this again this season with Warroad : they have an awesome community team, yet I don't think anyone would bet a cent on them being able to beat Hermantown.

Again, I'm not attacking you. From a AA persepctive, what you say makes great sense, but there are people out there who try to apply the Hermantown standard to community A teams, and then rip on these teams for falling short. And the Hermantown recruiters use this same false equivalence to hoodwink parents into thinking their home program sucks, and that by joining the Hermantown program their kid will be subjected to some magical development program no one can match.

Just in general, for anyone out there who subscribes to the "Hermantown's program is great. Quit whining and make your program better." viewpoint, I ask that you think about these two questions:

How good would Hermantown be without transfer and open enrollment?

How much better are outstate programs supposed to get?
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

rainier
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:42 am

O-townClown wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:48 am
Getitright wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:13 pm
Be interesting to know how many kids ... moved school districts after they were born.
Insular Minnesotans don't think anyone should ever move ever. Great comment.
What nearby school district, close enough so families can keep the same house, friends, church, etc., can International Falls attract good players from?

Just saying applying what Hermantown does in the Duluth metro area is not replicable for most outstate teams, so holding outstate teams to that standard is insane.
"You can't triple stamp a double stamp." -Harry Dunn

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