For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.elliott70 wrote:Again, who are the open enrollees?
From what I can tell thre maybe 1 on he current varsity and he may live in side the HT school district.
The 2 mentioned earlier are not open enrolled.
The Hermantown Thread
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
zooomx wrote:For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.elliott70 wrote:Again, who are the open enrollees?
From what I can tell thre maybe 1 on he current varsity and he may live in side the HT school district.
The 2 mentioned earlier are not open enrolled.
Why won't any Herm fan answer the question of how good they would be without open enrollees and transfers?
Recent open enrollees and transfers: Aamodt, Gotz x2, Samberg, Watkins, Judnick. How good would they have been without these players? How does being located in a metro area give Hermantown a huge advantage over outstate teams? I believe 21% of Hermantown students are open enrollees. Where would Hibbing get open enrollees? How about I-Falls, TRF, or Little Falls?
The simple fact remains that without open enrollees and transfers, Hermantown is a solid Class A team, not a dominant one.
Okay, transfers into a community.rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote:For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.elliott70 wrote:Again, who are the open enrollees?
From what I can tell thre maybe 1 on he current varsity and he may live in side the HT school district.
The 2 mentioned earlier are not open enrolled.
Why won't any Herm fan answer the question of how good they would be without open enrollees and transfers?
Recent open enrollees and transfers: Aamodt, Gotz x2, Samberg, Watkins, Judnick. How good would they have been without these players? How does being located in a metro area give Hermantown a huge advantage over outstate teams? I believe 21% of Hermantown students are open enrollees. Where would Hibbing get open enrollees? How about I-Falls, TRF, or Little Falls?
The simple fact remains that without open enrollees and transfers, Hermantown is a solid Class A team, not a dominant one.
Can they make a team better? U betcha!
Why did the two you mention move to Hermantown? For hickey? No, but part of it.
If anyone today was to pick up and move to Duluth because of your job in the medical field, which part of the Duluth area would you move to?
Lots of things to consider. A lot of people will pick Hermantown.
Now if you were a foreign exchange student where would you go?
Pretty much where your interests take you and what is available.
Has the goalie at Greenway of Coleraine improved them? My guess is yes, but I don't blame in Colerain or the Greenway school for taking him.
It is what happens and is more likely to happen in Hermantown, Duluth East, and metro areas with strong hockey when it is someone with good hockey players moving to town.
Geez, are they better because of it? Well, of course. But why are they choosing HT when they could have chosen DEast, Denfeld, Proctor, Two Harbors, Esko, Superior, maybe more. Well, art of it is they have a solid youth/high school hockey program.
Can any program have this option? Of course not. People are not flocking to Coleraine, Ely, Bagley, Hallock etc... Not because they are not nice towns, but it is the reality of economics.
But what can they do? Make their program the best they can with what they have. And the communities I mentioned are doing that.
Will they become hockey powers? Not unless the economics change.
But they can still put their best on the ice and find success.
The problem I have with people knocking HT is that bringing down the top dog to advance your own is an ugly scenario.
Let HT worry about how they fit in. Keep doing the good things you are doing and enjoy the success as YOU measure it.
Enough of me....
Ok, the first 3 you list were pretty much debunked... and now we are adding "transfers" into the mix?? Where do the others come from?rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote:For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.elliott70 wrote:Again, who are the open enrollees?
From what I can tell thre maybe 1 on he current varsity and he may live in side the HT school district.
The 2 mentioned earlier are not open enrolled.
Why won't any Herm fan answer the question of how good they would be without open enrollees and transfers?
Recent open enrollees and transfers: Aamodt, Gotz x2, Samberg, Watkins, Judnick. How good would they have been without these players? How does being located in a metro area give Hermantown a huge advantage over outstate teams? I believe 21% of Hermantown students are open enrollees. Where would Hibbing get open enrollees? How about I-Falls, TRF, or Little Falls?
The simple fact remains that without open enrollees and transfers, Hermantown is a solid Class A team, not a dominant one.
A quick count: In Alex we have had at least 20 families move in ("transfer") to our program since I got involved in hockey. Some moved here for work and were happy to have a good program for their kids. For some, a better school and hockey program was a big part of their decision to take employment in our town. I think in every region in the state families move from school districts with less opportunity to more opportunity.
Luverne, East Grand, Warroad and/or Roseau, Red Wing, TRF (yes they do!), Alexandria, Brainerd, Grand Rapids all have families playing hockey that moved in partially for a better hockey experience for their kids. They all have a competitive advantage over the surround smaller towns. It is not unique to Hermantown. The difference is Hermantown wins more and so takes all the hits.
I think 95% of the comments on this forum have agreed that yes, Hermantown should play AA (and I agree). What I disagree with is the nasty accusations that fly around here with no, or very little basis. Gee, sorry the Hermantown families are proud of their program. They should just wear paper bags over their heads and be ashamed of their success.
If many of you stone throwers were in a similar situation (and are honest with yourselves), you would probably be the first in line to move into Hermantown. You won't admit it, and that is fine, but you would do it in a heartbeat. Or, if it was your program, you would welcome those move-ins with open arms and celebrate success just as much as Hermantown families do.
This whole argument is much to do about nothing, and is fed by petty jealousy and envy. Yes, be angry with the school board, superintendent, or coach if you really need to be mad. But stop with attacking the youth program and coaches, or any of the parents or players. I have met several Hermantown families over our years in the game, and they are just like the rest of us. They love hockey.
Well said, thank you!zooomx wrote:Ok, the first 3 you list were pretty much debunked... and now we are adding "transfers" into the mix?? Where do the others come from?rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote: For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.
Why won't any Herm fan answer the question of how good they would be without open enrollees and transfers?
Recent open enrollees and transfers: Aamodt, Gotz x2, Samberg, Watkins, Judnick. How good would they have been without these players? How does being located in a metro area give Hermantown a huge advantage over outstate teams? I believe 21% of Hermantown students are open enrollees. Where would Hibbing get open enrollees? How about I-Falls, TRF, or Little Falls?
The simple fact remains that without open enrollees and transfers, Hermantown is a solid Class A team, not a dominant one.
A quick count: In Alex we have had at least 20 families move in ("transfer") to our program since I got involved in hockey. Some moved here for work and were happy to have a good program for their kids. For some, a better school and hockey program was a big part of their decision to take employment in our town. I think in every region in the state families move from school districts with less opportunity to more opportunity.
Luverne, East Grand, Warroad and/or Roseau, Red Wing, TRF (yes they do!), Alexandria, Brainerd, Grand Rapids all have families playing hockey that moved in partially for a better hockey experience for their kids. They all have a competitive advantage over the surround smaller towns. It is not unique to Hermantown. The difference is Hermantown wins more and so takes all the hits.
I think 95% of the comments on this forum have agreed that yes, Hermantown should play AA (and I agree). What I disagree with is the nasty accusations that fly around here with no, or very little basis. Gee, sorry the Hermantown families are proud of their program. They should just wear paper bags over their heads and be ashamed of their success.
If many of you stone throwers were in a similar situation (and are honest with yourselves), you would probably be the first in line to move into Hermantown. You won't admit it, and that is fine, but you would do it in a heartbeat. Or, if it was your program, you would welcome those move-ins with open arms and celebrate success just as much as Hermantown families do.
This whole argument is much to do about nothing, and is fed by petty jealousy and envy. Yes, be angry with the school board, superintendent, or coach if you really need to be mad. But stop with attacking the youth program and coaches, or any of the parents or players. I have met several Hermantown families over our years in the game, and they are just like the rest of us. They love hockey.
Exactly my point, thank you!elliott70 wrote:Okay, transfers into a community.rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote: For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.
Why won't any Herm fan answer the question of how good they would be without open enrollees and transfers?
Recent open enrollees and transfers: Aamodt, Gotz x2, Samberg, Watkins, Judnick. How good would they have been without these players? How does being located in a metro area give Hermantown a huge advantage over outstate teams? I believe 21% of Hermantown students are open enrollees. Where would Hibbing get open enrollees? How about I-Falls, TRF, or Little Falls?
The simple fact remains that without open enrollees and transfers, Hermantown is a solid Class A team, not a dominant one.
Can they make a team better? U betcha!
Why did the two you mention move to Hermantown? For hickey? No, but part of it.
If anyone today was to pick up and move to Duluth because of your job in the medical field, which part of the Duluth area would you move to?
Lots of things to consider. A lot of people will pick Hermantown.
Now if you were a foreign exchange student where would you go?
Pretty much where your interests take you and what is available.
Has the goalie at Greenway of Coleraine improved them? My guess is yes, but I don't blame in Colerain or the Greenway school for taking him.
It is what happens and is more likely to happen in Hermantown, Duluth East, and metro areas with strong hockey when it is someone with good hockey players moving to town.
Geez, are they better because of it? Well, of course. But why are they choosing HT when they could have chosen DEast, Denfeld, Proctor, Two Harbors, Esko, Superior, maybe more. Well, art of it is they have a solid youth/high school hockey program.
Can any program have this option? Of course not. People are not flocking to Coleraine, Ely, Bagley, Hallock etc... Not because they are not nice towns, but it is the reality of economics.
But what can they do? Make their program the best they can with what they have. And the communities I mentioned are doing that.
Will they become hockey powers? Not unless the economics change.
But they can still put their best on the ice and find success.
The problem I have with people knocking HT is that bringing down the top dog to advance your own is an ugly scenario.
Let HT worry about how they fit in. Keep doing the good things you are doing and enjoy the success as YOU measure it.
Enough of me....
Hermantown has a HUGE advantage being in a metro area. It's just a fact. They have relatively easy access to open enrolled talent and it is much easier for a family to find employment there than it is in outstate. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it is a fact, and that it belongs in AA, not A.
Without open enrollees and transfers, they are just a solid A program, and not a program who can beat eventual AA champs with regularity. How is this ripping on them? Is this not the truth? Do you think they would be just as good?
How good would Hermantown be with no transfers of open enrollees? A solid A team, but not a juggernaut.
Last edited by rainier2 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
[/quote]zooomx wrote:Ok, the first 3 you list were pretty much debunked... and now we are adding "transfers" into the mix?? Where do the others come from?rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote: For all the people "who know people" and have the "inside scoop", this question keeps getting ignored. Ask for proof and they scatter like mice. Until specific examples are brought out, I am going to assume we have all been played the past 5 years.
Why won't any Herm fan answer the question of how good they would be without open enrollees and transfers?
Recent open enrollees and transfers: Aamodt, Gotz x2, Samberg, Watkins, Judnick. How good would they have been without these players? How does being located in a metro area give Hermantown a huge advantage over outstate teams? I believe 21% of Hermantown students are open enrollees. Where would Hibbing get open enrollees? How about I-Falls, TRF, or Little Falls?
The simple fact remains that without open enrollees and transfers, Hermantown is a solid Class A team, not a dominant one.
How were they "debunked"? Aamodt lived in Proctor school district and Gotz boys transferred. And I have always had transfers in the mix, I didn't just add them.
A quick count: In Alex we have had at least 20 families move in ("transfer") to our program since I got involved in hockey. Some moved here for work and were happy to have a good program for their kids. For some, a better school and hockey program was a big part of their decision to take employment in our town. I think in every region in the state families move from school districts with less opportunity to more opportunity.
Yep, they do, but its orders of magnitude easier to do in Hermantown than it is in most outstate, Class A communities. It's just a fact. It's not good, it's not bad, it just is. How is this ripping on Hermantown?
Luverne, East Grand, Warroad and/or Roseau, Red Wing, TRF (yes they do!), Alexandria, Brainerd, Grand Rapids all have families playing hockey that moved in partially for a better hockey experience for their kids. They all have a competitive advantage over the surround smaller towns. It is not unique to Hermantown. The difference is Hermantown wins more and so takes all the hits. They win more because they have a solid chunk of open enrollees and transfers over the years. This is a fact. Without that outside talent, they would not win as much. This is not ripping on them, it is just stating the obvious.
I think 95% of the comments on this forum have agreed that yes, Hermantown should play AA (and I agree). What I disagree with is the nasty accusations that fly around here with no, or very little basis. Gee, sorry the Hermantown families are proud of their program. They should just wear paper bags over their heads and be ashamed of their success.
What nasty accusations? Name one nasty accusation I have made.
If many of you stone throwers were in a similar situation (and are honest with yourselves), you would probably be the first in line to move into Hermantown. You won't admit it, and that is fine, but you would do it in a heartbeat. Or, if it was your program, you would welcome those move-ins with open arms and celebrate success just as much as Hermantown families do. Absolutely, but I would do it in AA, not A.
This whole argument is much to do about nothing, and is fed by petty jealousy and envy. Yes, be angry with the school board, superintendent, or coach if you really need to be mad. But stop with attacking the youth program and coaches, or any of the parents or players. I have met several Hermantown families over our years in the game, and they are just like the rest of us. They love hockey. Who is attacking the youth program, parents, or players? I have not. I give Plante crap, but if you don't think he deserves some crap for railing against STA and then having no problem with using open enrollment and transfers to crush small town teams, I don't what to tell you. Hermantown has a great program, but without the advantages of being in a metro area, they would not be a dominant A program. It's not good or bad, it's just a fact.
Yes, people move to HT. The players that come in are not high school stars. Potential, sure, probably, maybe. But these kids come into a good youth program and they make them better. The current roster is full of kids that the HT youth program developed. Where people decide to move is not anyone's choice but the THOSE people. HT, as a whole, makes their community attractive. So people that show up to the area choose them.rainier2 wrote: Exactly my point, thank you!
Hermantown has a HUGE advantage being in a metro area. It's just a fact. They have relatively easy access to open enrolled talent and it is much easier for a family to find employment there than it is in outstate. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it is a fact, and that it belongs in AA, not A.
Without open enrollees and transfers, they are just a solid A program, and not a program who can beat eventual AA champs with regularity. How is this ripping on them? Is this not the truth? Do you think they would be just as good?
How good would Hermantown be with no transfers of open enrollees? A solid A team, but not
That fact alone does not make them AA. But almost all of us think they can compete in AA. But that is completely their (and as I have said before - a handful of decision makers) choice.
And Bemidji would have less success without BSU and the regional hospital in our backyard. Bemidji chooses to be AA. Why? In a large part because of Moorhead. They are our biggest rival - in everything. To some degree it is about playing with the big guys, but not because we are not 'chicken'. We tried the single A route. It did not fit with us. We are a very big school for this part of the world. One thing you have to admit, HY is NOT a big school, regardless what you say about being in a metro area and being able to draw. They do not have an open check book, unlimited space. They are a public school, they have to meet the needs of all in their school district.
HT youth program is one of the best, right there with Edina, Roseau, Moorhead. But not in numbers.
Well, what about Roseau? An anomaly. The only one of its kind (perhaps one or two in football).
Anyway, I enjoy 'talking' with you, Ranier. Hope to meet you in an arena one of these days.
Last edited by elliott70 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
I also enjoy talking with you, Elliott. Yes, Hermantown is not a big school, but when you have open enrollment in a metro area, then enrollment numbers mean, much, much less. When most of the best players from Proctor school district open enroll to Hermantown (Aamodt, Samberg, Skrbich, Judnick) then you have effectively added a Proctors enrollment to Hermantown's. This is the same point that Plante was making when he was losing to STA.elliott70 wrote:Yes, people move to HT. The players that come in are not high school starts. Potential, sure, probably, maybe. But these kids come into a good youth program and they make them better. The current roster is full of kids that the HT youth program developed. Where people decide to move is not anyone's choice but the THOSE people. HT, as a whole, makes their community attractive. So people that show up to the area choose them.rainier2 wrote: Exactly my point, thank you!
Hermantown has a HUGE advantage being in a metro area. It's just a fact. They have relatively easy access to open enrolled talent and it is much easier for a family to find employment there than it is in outstate. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it is a fact, and that it belongs in AA, not A.
Without open enrollees and transfers, they are just a solid A program, and not a program who can beat eventual AA champs with regularity. How is this ripping on them? Is this not the truth? Do you think they would be just as good?
How good would Hermantown be with no transfers of open enrollees? A solid A team, but not
That fact alone does not make them AA. But almost all of us think they can compete in AA. But that is completely their (and as I have said before - a handful of decision makers) choice.
And Bemidji would have less success without BSU and the regional hospital in our backyard. Bemidji chooses to be AA. Why? In a large part because of Moorhead. They are our biggest rival - in everything. To some degree it is about playing with the big guys, but not because we are not 'chicken'. We tried the single A route. It did not fit with us. We are a very big school for this part of the world. One thing you have to admit, HY is NOT a big school, regardless what you say about being in a metro area and being able to draw. They do not have an open check book, unlimited space. They are a public school, they have to meet the needs of all in their school district.
HT youth program is one of the best, right there with Edina, Roseau, Moorhead. But not in numbers.
Well, what about Roseau? An anomaly. The only one of its kind (perhaps one or two in football).
Anyway, I enjoy 'talking' with you, Ranier. Hope to meet you in an arena one of these days.
A) I have never accused you personally of ripping anyone. However, go back through many of these threads and they are littered with nastiness. I don't take your arguments personally, neither should you. I am just trying to understand, and so far I don't get the level of anger and angst by many people in these threads.
B) They are a very solid program no matter how you look at it. Obviously, the move-ins positively impact their results. To what degree, we can only speculate. There are privates that get some really good talent and have marginal success. Still have to have a great youth program to have this type of success.
C) Still waiting to hear where the other names are from, and if they open-enrolled or moved in. See, I like to form an opinion based on facts, not speculation. Many of us may be swayed a bit more, if specific examples supported your claims are put forth. The first 3 all have very reasonable explanations that are consistent with many other programs around the state.
B) They are a very solid program no matter how you look at it. Obviously, the move-ins positively impact their results. To what degree, we can only speculate. There are privates that get some really good talent and have marginal success. Still have to have a great youth program to have this type of success.
C) Still waiting to hear where the other names are from, and if they open-enrolled or moved in. See, I like to form an opinion based on facts, not speculation. Many of us may be swayed a bit more, if specific examples supported your claims are put forth. The first 3 all have very reasonable explanations that are consistent with many other programs around the state.
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Thunderstruck
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I must be the only one around that likes having the Hawks in 7A. My kids play in 7A, not HT but a range team and I love having them in 7A. It reminds me of when it was a one class system back in 80's when most years you had to get through a very good GR program but when it happened it was so bitter sweet. Hell Greenway played fine against the Hawks and could beat them. Even Virginia beat St Cloud Cathedral by same score as HT. When it happens that a 7A team dumps the Hawks it will be an awesome accomplishment for that team and will feel o so good for them. Have they pulled kids from other 7A teams yes but so what. Keep em in 7A somebody will take em down.
I tend to think that youth program depth is overrated, at least once you get to the Bantam level. So few players below the top Bantam team will ever see varsity ice time, much less contribute on any meaningful level. Heck, in a well balanced system some of the players from the top Bantam team will be squeezed out of varsity. The cornerstone of maintaining a strong program is churning out a handful of solid varsity caliber players in each class, and adding a few stars to the mix.SCBlueLiner wrote:When looking at the future prospects of a HS program I immediately go to the youth website and see how many teams they are fielding and what the records are like. First thing I look for is a pyramid, 6 Squirt teams, 5 Pee Wee teams, 4 Bantam teams, as opposed to an inverted pyramid where you have more Pee Wee teams than Squirt teams. The next thing I look at is depth, not just how the top team is doing but also the second team.
So I look at how Hermantown's Bantam A team has performed over the last several years and the results are not pretty. I actually had the occasion to see the Bantam A team a couple of times last season and they looked overmatched for A level hockey, probably would have been better served at B1. The Bantam AA team does very well, but how much of that success is the result of having transfer players (who more often than not tend to be stars) versus homegrown talent leading the way. What if the transfers completely dried up and the top Hermantown team was a combination of some of the current AA players and the better A players?
IMO, Hermantown lacks the depth that the large AA programs have. You don't see a massive drop off in results from AA to A to B1, etc. at the top programs in the state. It speaks to the depth that they have, depth that is needed when players peak early and plateau as sophomores instead of as seniors, top players depart early for juniors, etc.
This analysis does not look at specific players or specific classes, just a general overall picture of the program, its depth and results, not just results of the top teams but the results of the second and third teams in a division. I think a move to AA would slowly erode the program and you would begin to see depth issues. There would be HS teams that would contend, but there would also be peaks and valleys like most other programs experience as special classes come through the system. In other words, Hermantown would eventually become just another AA program.
Yes, depth is helpful at the lower levels in terms of driving up participation and encouraging kids to keep playing and develop their skills. However, the fact that most strong HS programs also have deep youth systems may be more of a correlation than causation (i.e. kids are excited about participating in a winning system, even if their chances of reaching the top of that pyramid aren’t great).
Stang5280 wrote:I tend to think that youth program depth is overrated, at least once you get to the Bantam level. So few players below the top Bantam team will ever see varsity ice time, much less contribute on any meaningful level. Heck, in a well balanced system some of the players from the top Bantam team will be squeezed out of varsity. The cornerstone of maintaining a strong program is churning out a handful of solid varsity caliber players in each class, and adding a few stars to the mix.
Yes, depth is helpful at the lower levels in terms of driving up participation and encouraging kids to keep playing and develop their skills. However, the fact that most strong HS programs also have deep youth systems may be more of a correlation than causation (i.e. kids are excited about participating in a winning system, even if their chances of reaching the top of that pyramid aren’t great).
Geez, where did you go to high school STA or Blake?
zooomx wrote:A) I have never accused you personally of ripping anyone. However, go back through many of these threads and they are littered with nastiness. I don't take your arguments personally, neither should you. I am just trying to understand, and so far I don't get the level of anger and angst by many people in these threads. Fair enough. I thought you were accusing me of nastiness and/or baseless claims.
B) They are a very solid program no matter how you look at it. Obviously, the move-ins positively impact their results. To what degree, we can only speculate. There are privates that get some really good talent and have marginal success. Still have to have a great youth program to have this type of success. Yep, everyone agrees they have a great program, and as you said, the move-ins positively impact their results.
C) Still waiting to hear where the other names are from, and if they open-enrolled or moved in. See, I like to form an opinion based on facts, not speculation. Many of us may be swayed a bit more, if specific examples supported your claims are put forth. The first 3 all have very reasonable explanations that are consistent with many other programs around the state.
Ok, time to get specific...again.
Here are all the open enrollees and transfers I can think of over the last several years: Aamodt, Skrbich, Samberg, Judnick, Gotz, Gotz, Kramer, Watkins, and now the Ely kid. I'd say all but one of them is an Elite League type player. This is not speculation. These names have been mentioned many times and Hermantown fans do not dispute that these players are open enrollees/transfers.
Recruiting at the youth levels in Hermantown is a problem. So much so that a year or two ago it was brought up at a meeting by a Pee Wee coach or director. This is publicly available information at the Herm youth association website, and it has been posted on this forum on at least two occasions. Also, a good friend of mine's son was an excellent player for Hibbing. While in youth levels, he received a letter from Hermantown youth hockey telling him about how great the Herm program was and that they would welcome him to join the association. I have no idea if this was an official letter from the association, in fact I doubt it, but if that doesn't sound like recruiting, I don't know what does. I never saw the letter, but I trust my buddy and he would have no reason to lie to me about it, so I take it as fact.
There is a lot of open enrollment in Hermantown schools. There was an article in the Duluth paper about it a year or two ago that, again, was posted on this forum several times. If I remember correctly the percentage of Hermantown students that open enroll is right around 20%. Feel free to do a Google search if you want the exact number.
Hermantown is a suburb in a metro area of over 150,000 people. This is a fact.
Hermantown plays AA at all youth levels and has a AA heavy schedule in HS. This is a fact.
So, a hockey program located in a metro area in which open enrollment, transfers, and recruiting are happening regularly, all with verifiable documentation, and all while playing against AA teams for 95% of their hockey careers. Does this sound like "small town hockey"? More importantly, should outstate teams be held to this standard and be called "lame a$$" and shamed when they don't?
That's what I really find most fascinating about talking about Hermantown: When you list simple, verifiable facts, people think you are ripping on them. But the truth is that these facts are just so wildly incongruent with them being in Class A that it makes them look terrible for staying in A. The facts are the facts. Don't shoot the messenger.
You know how much of a Hermantown "hater" I am? Only two hours ago, I was at the Twig outdoor rinks cheering on a mite team from Hermantown, because a good friend of mine has his boys in the program. I had a great time cheering those kids on. Oh, and I tell my friend everything I post on this board, and he thinks its stupid Hermantown isn't AA.
Ok, last post and then I will let this lie. We agree they should move to AA, and most others agree with us both. I scratch my head when you say 20% of their school is open-enrolled. That means, what... about 100-150 open-enrollees, and we are talking a handful of those are hockey players? Makes it seem like there is more to this than just a hockey issue. There are obviously complex social economic issues in the mix.rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote:A) I have never accused you personally of ripping anyone. However, go back through many of these threads and they are littered with nastiness. I don't take your arguments personally, neither should you. I am just trying to understand, and so far I don't get the level of anger and angst by many people in these threads. Fair enough. I thought you were accusing me of nastiness and/or baseless claims.
B) They are a very solid program no matter how you look at it. Obviously, the move-ins positively impact their results. To what degree, we can only speculate. There are privates that get some really good talent and have marginal success. Still have to have a great youth program to have this type of success. Yep, everyone agrees they have a great program, and as you said, the move-ins positively impact their results.
C) Still waiting to hear where the other names are from, and if they open-enrolled or moved in. See, I like to form an opinion based on facts, not speculation. Many of us may be swayed a bit more, if specific examples supported your claims are put forth. The first 3 all have very reasonable explanations that are consistent with many other programs around the state.
Ok, time to get specific...again.
Here are all the open enrollees and transfers I can think of over the last several years: Aamodt, Skrbich, Samberg, Judnick, Gotz, Gotz, Kramer, Watkins, and now the Ely kid. I'd say all but one of them is an Elite League type player. This is not speculation. These names have been mentioned many times and Hermantown fans do not dispute that these players are open enrollees/transfers.
Recruiting at the youth levels in Hermantown is a problem. So much so that a year or two ago it was brought up at a meeting by a Pee Wee coach or director. This is publicly available information at the Herm youth association website, and it has been posted on this forum on at least two occasions. Also, a good friend of mine's son was an excellent player for Hibbing. While in youth levels, he received a letter from Hermantown youth hockey telling him about how great the Herm program was and that they would welcome him to join the association. I have no idea if this was an official letter from the association, in fact I doubt it, but if that doesn't sound like recruiting, I don't know what does. I never saw the letter, but I trust my buddy and he would have no reason to lie to me about it, so I take it as fact.
There is a lot of open enrollment in Hermantown schools. There was an article in the Duluth paper about it a year or two ago that, again, was posted on this forum several times. If I remember correctly the percentage of Hermantown students that open enroll is right around 20%. Feel free to do a Google search if you want the exact number.
Hermantown is a suburb in a metro area of over 150,000 people. This is a fact.
Hermantown plays AA at all youth levels and has a AA heavy schedule in HS. This is a fact.
So, a hockey program located in a metro area in which open enrollment, transfers, and recruiting are happening regularly, all with verifiable documentation, and all while playing against AA teams for 95% of their hockey careers. Does this sound like "small town hockey"? More importantly, should outstate teams be held to this standard and be called "lame a$$" and shamed when they don't?
That's what I really find most fascinating about talking about Hermantown: When you list simple, verifiable facts, people think you are ripping on them. But the truth is that these facts are just so wildly incongruent with them being in Class A that it makes them look terrible for staying in A. The facts are the facts. Don't shoot the messenger.
You know how much of a Hermantown "hater" I am? Only two hours ago, I was at the Twig outdoor rinks cheering on a mite team from Hermantown, because a good friend of mine has his boys in the program. I had a great time cheering those kids on. Oh, and I tell my friend everything I post on this board, and he thinks its stupid Hermantown isn't AA.
The recruiting deal is still a gray area. I believe you about the youth hockey meeting comments. We have no idea the breadth of the problem, just that it was commented in their minutes. I believe you that Hermantown residents think they should be AA.
The MSHSL rules allow them to stay A if they want. They choose not to. Seems to me if there is as much angst inside and outside the organization that you claim, this whole thing will implode upon itself anyway. MSHSL is not going to create a "gray area/hard to enforce" ruling to force them to go AA. No amounts of comments on this forum will force them to go AA. Someone once mentioned that they led the charge to make the privates go AA and I call B.S. on that. They move up when they feel it is in their own best interest. We all get that you and others think they should go AA. We get it. We really do. I guess if you all are just venting your frustration, then have at it and have fun doing it. It just seems like complaining that the sky is blue, or that water is wet. [/u][/i]
Fair enough. I just want to ask you one last question, if you'll indulge me:zooomx wrote:Ok, last post and then I will let this lie. We agree they should move to AA, and most others agree with us both. I scratch my head when you say 20% of their school is open-enrolled. That means, what... about 100-150 open-enrollees, and we are talking a handful of those are hockey players? Makes it seem like there is more to this than just a hockey issue. There are obviously complex social economic issues in the mix.rainier2 wrote:zooomx wrote:A) I have never accused you personally of ripping anyone. However, go back through many of these threads and they are littered with nastiness. I don't take your arguments personally, neither should you. I am just trying to understand, and so far I don't get the level of anger and angst by many people in these threads. Fair enough. I thought you were accusing me of nastiness and/or baseless claims.
B) They are a very solid program no matter how you look at it. Obviously, the move-ins positively impact their results. To what degree, we can only speculate. There are privates that get some really good talent and have marginal success. Still have to have a great youth program to have this type of success. Yep, everyone agrees they have a great program, and as you said, the move-ins positively impact their results.
C) Still waiting to hear where the other names are from, and if they open-enrolled or moved in. See, I like to form an opinion based on facts, not speculation. Many of us may be swayed a bit more, if specific examples supported your claims are put forth. The first 3 all have very reasonable explanations that are consistent with many other programs around the state.
Ok, time to get specific...again.
Here are all the open enrollees and transfers I can think of over the last several years: Aamodt, Skrbich, Samberg, Judnick, Gotz, Gotz, Kramer, Watkins, and now the Ely kid. I'd say all but one of them is an Elite League type player. This is not speculation. These names have been mentioned many times and Hermantown fans do not dispute that these players are open enrollees/transfers.
Recruiting at the youth levels in Hermantown is a problem. So much so that a year or two ago it was brought up at a meeting by a Pee Wee coach or director. This is publicly available information at the Herm youth association website, and it has been posted on this forum on at least two occasions. Also, a good friend of mine's son was an excellent player for Hibbing. While in youth levels, he received a letter from Hermantown youth hockey telling him about how great the Herm program was and that they would welcome him to join the association. I have no idea if this was an official letter from the association, in fact I doubt it, but if that doesn't sound like recruiting, I don't know what does. I never saw the letter, but I trust my buddy and he would have no reason to lie to me about it, so I take it as fact.
There is a lot of open enrollment in Hermantown schools. There was an article in the Duluth paper about it a year or two ago that, again, was posted on this forum several times. If I remember correctly the percentage of Hermantown students that open enroll is right around 20%. Feel free to do a Google search if you want the exact number.
Hermantown is a suburb in a metro area of over 150,000 people. This is a fact.
Hermantown plays AA at all youth levels and has a AA heavy schedule in HS. This is a fact.
So, a hockey program located in a metro area in which open enrollment, transfers, and recruiting are happening regularly, all with verifiable documentation, and all while playing against AA teams for 95% of their hockey careers. Does this sound like "small town hockey"? More importantly, should outstate teams be held to this standard and be called "lame a$$" and shamed when they don't?
That's what I really find most fascinating about talking about Hermantown: When you list simple, verifiable facts, people think you are ripping on them. But the truth is that these facts are just so wildly incongruent with them being in Class A that it makes them look terrible for staying in A. The facts are the facts. Don't shoot the messenger.
You know how much of a Hermantown "hater" I am? Only two hours ago, I was at the Twig outdoor rinks cheering on a mite team from Hermantown, because a good friend of mine has his boys in the program. I had a great time cheering those kids on. Oh, and I tell my friend everything I post on this board, and he thinks its stupid Hermantown isn't AA.
The recruiting deal is still a gray area. I believe you about the youth hockey meeting comments. We have no idea the breadth of the problem, just that it was commented in their minutes. I believe you that Hermantown residents think they should be AA.
The MSHSL rules allow them to stay A if they want. They choose not to. Seems to me if there is as much angst inside and outside the organization that you claim, this whole thing will implode upon itself anyway. MSHSL is not going to create a "gray area/hard to enforce" ruling to force them to go AA. No amounts of comments on this forum will force them to go AA. Someone once mentioned that they led the charge to make the privates go AA and I call B.S. on that. They move up when they feel it is in their own best interest. We all get that you and others think they should go AA. We get it. We really do. I guess if you all are just venting your frustration, then have at it and have fun doing it. It just seems like complaining that the sky is blue, or that water is wet. [/u][/i]
Do you think outstate community teams like Hibbing, Greenway, Luverne, Little Falls, TRF, etc., despite producing D1 players and highly ranked A teams on a fairly regular basis, should be characterized as having "weak" programs because they haven't had as much success as Hermantown, a metro area team that gets a solid chunk of its top talent from open enrollees and transfers?
Several posters, and especially Peky, seem to share this sentiment. What is your view?
I think all programs have ebbs and flows. The ones you mention above I would not characterize as weak at this moment. I think there are many out state teams that have weaker programs than they should due to poor decision making or poor recruiting efforts. Greenway and Luverne lately have outperformed what similar communities typically produce. Hermantown does have an advantage geographically and economically than those towns you mention. I think there are a half dozen or more Class A programs that are vastly under performing compared to similar programs and choose to complain about the big dogs versus working their best to grow and improve their own programs. I am just one who chooses to work on things within my control.rainier2 wrote:Fair enough. I just want to ask you one last question, if you'll indulge me:zooomx wrote:Ok, last post and then I will let this lie. We agree they should move to AA, and most others agree with us both. I scratch my head when you say 20% of their school is open-enrolled. That means, what... about 100-150 open-enrollees, and we are talking a handful of those are hockey players? Makes it seem like there is more to this than just a hockey issue. There are obviously complex social economic issues in the mix.rainier2 wrote:
The recruiting deal is still a gray area. I believe you about the youth hockey meeting comments. We have no idea the breadth of the problem, just that it was commented in their minutes. I believe you that Hermantown residents think they should be AA.
The MSHSL rules allow them to stay A if they want. They choose not to. Seems to me if there is as much angst inside and outside the organization that you claim, this whole thing will implode upon itself anyway. MSHSL is not going to create a "gray area/hard to enforce" ruling to force them to go AA. No amounts of comments on this forum will force them to go AA. Someone once mentioned that they led the charge to make the privates go AA and I call B.S. on that. They move up when they feel it is in their own best interest. We all get that you and others think they should go AA. We get it. We really do. I guess if you all are just venting your frustration, then have at it and have fun doing it. It just seems like complaining that the sky is blue, or that water is wet. [/u][/i]
Do you think outstate community teams like Hibbing, Greenway, Luverne, Little Falls, TRF, etc., despite producing D1 players and highly ranked A teams on a fairly regular basis, should be characterized as having "weak" programs because they haven't had as much success as Hermantown, a metro area team that gets a solid chunk of its top talent from open enrollees and transfers?
Several posters, and especially Peky, seem to share this sentiment. What is your view?
I am proud of things my own association has done on both the boy and girls side to improve. We don't complain about the Cathedrals and Hermantowns of the world. We strive to get better. Doubled our number of players over the past 10 years. Trips to state 12 of 14 years on the girls side, and not happy... still striving for more. We lose players, we gain players... gain more than we lose.
To sum up: each program or association has it's own set of advantages and hurdles alike. Those programs you mention are doing fine. Calling them weak, is like calling the second finisher in the Kentucky Derby a "bust"
I agree 100%. Of course they should still strive to improve, as should every program and individual. It is my goal to snuff out any lingering belief that Hermantown is "small town hockey". I think people should be fully aware that they are a wealthy suburban program that has very little in common with the vast majority of Class A teams, and that people should consider this when comparing the Hermantown program to other A programs.zooomx wrote:I think all programs have ebbs and flows. The ones you mention above I would not characterize as weak at this moment. I think there are many out state teams that have weaker programs than they should due to poor decision making or poor recruiting efforts. Greenway and Luverne lately have outperformed what similar communities typically produce. Hermantown does have an advantage geographically and economically than those towns you mention. I think there are a half dozen or more Class A programs that are vastly under performing compared to similar programs and choose to complain about the big dogs versus working their best to grow and improve their own programs. I am just one who chooses to work on things within my control.rainier2 wrote:Fair enough. I just want to ask you one last question, if you'll indulge me:zooomx wrote: Ok, last post and then I will let this lie. We agree they should move to AA, and most others agree with us both. I scratch my head when you say 20% of their school is open-enrolled. That means, what... about 100-150 open-enrollees, and we are talking a handful of those are hockey players? Makes it seem like there is more to this than just a hockey issue. There are obviously complex social economic issues in the mix.
The recruiting deal is still a gray area. I believe you about the youth hockey meeting comments. We have no idea the breadth of the problem, just that it was commented in their minutes. I believe you that Hermantown residents think they should be AA.
The MSHSL rules allow them to stay A if they want. They choose not to. Seems to me if there is as much angst inside and outside the organization that you claim, this whole thing will implode upon itself anyway. MSHSL is not going to create a "gray area/hard to enforce" ruling to force them to go AA. No amounts of comments on this forum will force them to go AA. Someone once mentioned that they led the charge to make the privates go AA and I call B.S. on that. They move up when they feel it is in their own best interest. We all get that you and others think they should go AA. We get it. We really do. I guess if you all are just venting your frustration, then have at it and have fun doing it. It just seems like complaining that the sky is blue, or that water is wet. [/u][/i]
Do you think outstate community teams like Hibbing, Greenway, Luverne, Little Falls, TRF, etc., despite producing D1 players and highly ranked A teams on a fairly regular basis, should be characterized as having "weak" programs because they haven't had as much success as Hermantown, a metro area team that gets a solid chunk of its top talent from open enrollees and transfers?
Several posters, and especially Peky, seem to share this sentiment. What is your view?
I am proud of things my own association has done on both the boy and girls side to improve. We don't complain about the Cathedrals and Hermantowns of the world. We strive to get better. Doubled our number of players over the past 10 years. Trips to state 12 of 14 years on the girls side, and not happy... still striving for more. We lose players, we gain players... gain more than we lose.
To sum up: each program or association has it's own set of advantages and hurdles alike. Those programs you mention are doing fine. Calling them weak, is like calling the second finisher in the Kentucky Derby a "bust"
I agree 100%. Of course they should still strive to improve, as should every program and individual. It is my goal to snuff out any lingering belief that Hermantown is "small town hockey". I think people should be fully aware that they are a wealthy suburban program that has very little in common with the vast majority of Class A teams, and that people should consider this when comparing the Hermantown program to other A programs.[/quote]
Hermantown is a hockey empire! They are not a typical A program. I don't believe there are people out there who think they are typical.
Hermantown is a hockey empire! They are not a typical A program. I don't believe there are people out there who think they are typical.
Hermantown is a hockey empire! They are not a typical A program. I don't believe there are people out there who think they are typical.[/quote]kniven wrote:I agree 100%. Of course they should still strive to improve, as should every program and individual. It is my goal to snuff out any lingering belief that Hermantown is "small town hockey". I think people should be fully aware that they are a wealthy suburban program that has very little in common with the vast majority of Class A teams, and that people should consider this when comparing the Hermantown program to other A programs.
I guess I don't see the issue being that people view Hermantown as a typical A program. To me, the issue is when some Herm and even non-Herm people have promoted the idea that what "small town hockey" Hermantown has done, any team in A can do, and the reason these other teams can't do it is because their programs are "lame a$$" or just plain crappy.
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C'mon, it gives some people a reason to buy a Thesauruselliott70 wrote:Stang5280 wrote:I tend to think that youth program depth is overrated, at least once you get to the Bantam level. So few players below the top Bantam team will ever see varsity ice time, much less contribute on any meaningful level. Heck, in a well balanced system some of the players from the top Bantam team will be squeezed out of varsity. The cornerstone of maintaining a strong program is churning out a handful of solid varsity caliber players in each class, and adding a few stars to the mix.
Yes, depth is helpful at the lower levels in terms of driving up participation and encouraging kids to keep playing and develop their skills. However, the fact that most strong HS programs also have deep youth systems may be more of a correlation than causation (i.e. kids are excited about participating in a winning system, even if their chances of reaching the top of that pyramid aren’t great).
Geez, where did you go to high school STA or Blake?
Lee
Message Board arsonist since 2005
Egomaniac since 2006
Egomaniac since 2006