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Virginia is no doubt in rebuilding mode right now. They'll be competitive as always. It may not show up in the wins column for a year or two but this new coach has a great vision from what I hear. As a neutral observer, what he needs....is kids like Kilen...even though none of his "friends" are there anymore....to STAY and LEAD. I guarantee most programs around here want to have success like a Hermantown. Why wouldn't you? But in order to get there, you need your best players to stick around and lead. Be the example for the other players, for the younger players. Lead by example and set the standard for the type of program you want to play for. The coach gives you every OPPORTUNITY to be successful. It is really up to the kids to live up to the standards and get it done. Just seems like no one wants to be a leader anymore...no one wants to work hard and build things up....they just want to go where it is already established and jump on the wagon. It'll be interesting to see what happens on May 14th. If the referendum passes and Virginia and Eveleth-Gilbert combine...I can see that program taking off and becoming a force in section 7 in the next 5 years or so. It'll take some building but if kids stick around, it could happen.

elliott70 wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)



Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.

The prodigal son (dad? ) has returned from his spring hibernation! I rarely dip my toes into the choppy waters of this thread, but I was curious to read your response. Thankfully my eyesight is still decent enough to read fine print, even after turning yet another year older yesterday, to catch your compliment.

I agree that while families moving can be exploited as a loophole, it is nearly impossible for most of us as outsiders to know the true motivations for a move. Heck, even if a movie is primarily driven by hockey, it's not something that can really be policed, even if it seems rather gross on the surface. Creating eligibility restrictions on families moving would hurt a great number of innocent players in order to catch a relatively small percentage of bad apples.

I think anyone who has interacted with this kids dad is not surprised at all by this. Every program in the state has guys like him who are in it more for their own ego than what works for their kid. Is the kid a good player? Absolutely. Is he going to be a top line player at Hermantown? Probably not.

I think Elliott brought up a good point that I never really thought of. Weighing all other factors (and you took hockey out of the equation) most people would probably choose Hermantown to live vs. Grand Rapids or Duluth. So why should we be surprised when someone chooses to go play hockey there? I don't like it anymore than everyone else, but they are following the rules. It didn't really bother me last year when you had the two Hibbing kids go to Greenway, but if they had gone to Hermantown instead, my gut feeling would have probably been different.

IRMN is correct in that there is something about staying around and "leading" the next generation of players. Unfortunately, you won't see YHH and the Twitter gurus writing about those players, and dad wants to see his kid's name out there.

I feel bad for Virginia, but this isn't the first kid that has left and it definitely won't be the last. One of the guys I work with said it best...."Never underestimate the ego of parents with kids in sports!"

Stang5280 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am

elliott70 wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)



Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.

The prodigal son (dad? ) has returned from his spring hibernation! I rarely dip my toes into the choppy waters of this thread, but I was curious to read your response. Thankfully my eyesight is still decent enough to read fine print, even after turning yet another year older yesterday, to catch your compliment.

I agree that while families moving can be exploited as a loophole, it is nearly impossible for most of us as outsiders to know the true motivations for a move. Heck, even if a movie is primarily driven by hockey, it's not something that can really be policed, even if it seems rather gross on the surface. Creating eligibility restrictions on families moving would hurt a great number of innocent players in order to catch a relatively small percentage of bad apples.

Happy birthday, Stang!

elliott70 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 11:54 am

Stang5280 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am

elliott70 wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:05 pm This is the one thing that sticks in my craw (craw?).

The ripple effect... back home, new home, players, coaches, fans, non-hockey friends....

If the family is moving to the Duluth area I understand Hermantown. Its tough to beat, nice home neighborhoods, schools, sports etc...
In most aspects it beats Grand Rapids, Duluth East and definitely Denfeld and Proctor. IF the family is moving for some reason other than hockey.

But if they are moving, well that happens and a lot more than the good old days.

If this family is moving just for a shot at going to state well they could be surprised (right Coleraine people).

Not much in the hockey world is guaranteed.
(Except Edina will be good, Karl will rank East in the top 10 and Goldy will complain about it, and Stang will put out the best rankings week in and week out.)



Anyway, lot of reasons people move around. I may not always like but it is not my problem.

The prodigal son (dad? ) has returned from his spring hibernation! I rarely dip my toes into the choppy waters of this thread, but I was curious to read your response. Thankfully my eyesight is still decent enough to read fine print, even after turning yet another year older yesterday, to catch your compliment.

I agree that while families moving can be exploited as a loophole, it is nearly impossible for most of us as outsiders to know the true motivations for a move. Heck, even if a movie is primarily driven by hockey, it's not something that can really be policed, even if it seems rather gross on the surface. Creating eligibility restrictions on families moving would hurt a great number of innocent players in order to catch a relatively small percentage of bad apples.

Happy birthday, Stang!

Thanks, and good to see you back around these parts!

Kids transferring and families moving into HT is not the issue because it’s all within the rules of the league. If you have issues with the rules you should write or set a meeting with the league office in Brooklyn Park.

HT sandbagging it and playing Class A instead of AA is the issue.

StanleyCup55 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 10:09 pm Kids transferring and families moving into HT is not the issue because it’s all within the rules of the league. If you have issues with the rules you should write or set a meeting with the league office in Brooklyn Park.

HT sandbagging it and playing Class A instead of AA is the issue.

You're correct, but the two do go hand in hand. The Admin and Coaching Staff are fully aware of the hordes of top end players that are open-enrolling and moving in specifically for Hockey. Instead of using this to advance their program, they use it to dominate a Class that was set up for exactly the opposite type of Program. It will be interesting to see if they finally pay a price for that this year.

Another very interesting stat from Karl's research on another thread.

Hermantown Free and Reduced lunch rate: 10.1% (Similar to Edina at 8.5% and Wayzata at 9.4%, lower than Maple Grove and Woodbury)

The rest of 7A:

North Shore 20.6%
Proctor 22.9%
International Falls 32.3%
Virginia 33.5%
Eveleth Gilbert 33.8%
Ely 35.6%
Hibbing 35.9%
Greenway 40.5%
Duluth Denfeld 53.1%

Cue up the Sesame Street Song: "One of these things, is not like the others, one of these things, just isn't the same."

7AA for Comparison:

Andover 12.5%
Elk River 14.0%
Forest Lake 15.6%
Duluth East 16.8%
St. Francis 22.1%
Cloquet 27.1%
Cambridge 28.1%
Grand Rapids 28.7%

When you combine this with the highest percentage of incoming players through open-enrollment/transfer in the State, it's not surprising that you would have success in the Class that was set up for Small, Community based programs.

What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.

greenwayraider wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.

Yes, interesting point on Mahto and Delano. Lower F/R than Hermantown even. But they don't get the hordes of open-enrollees/transfers. So we can pinpoint exactly the difference between their marginal success and Hermantown's dominance.

greenwayraider wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.

That is a very interesting way to look at it. I would be interested to see how that reflects for the rest of 7A/AA, as well as the top contenders every year statewide. I have some free time on Sunday so if someone doesn't beat me to it, I may look into that.

greenwayraider wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.

Definitely interesting. One other factor would be how many other activities kids in each school have to choose from. I know in Alex, we have a very good basketball program, solid in wresting, stellar swimming and diving and just a ton of other activities. I also think tradition plays a role. I imagine up in Greenway hockey is the sport many kids would love to play with the tradition it has up there. That, and some deep rooted hockey families who eat, drink and sleep hockey. I am guessing on those thoughts. I also wonder if the players in many northern communities spend more time on a pond playing for fun. I think that is something missing in many other communities in which kids only play hockey at the rink in a structured environment. I know in our town, I would love to see more outdoor rinks with younger players out playing for fun. That is where a lot of the creativity can be developed naturally.

All these thoughts are why I root pretty hard for the northern teams (at least when we don't play them).

zooomx wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 1:11 pm

greenwayraider wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 11:29 am What would be an interesting statistic is what percentage of a team’s roster is on free and reduced lunch. I know for Greenway’s full roster there is only one player (bench player) who might be on free/reduced lunch. This f/r lunch figure has a significant impact on the pool of kids that will/can go out for hockey. So realistically Greenway has a pool of 317 x 57% (male) = 181 boys in 9-12. Removing the 40% on f/r lunch you are down to 108. That makes Greenway’s wins over Hermantown, Delano and Mahtomedi even more of an accomplishment. All three had f/r lunch at 10% or less.

Definitely interesting. One other factor would be how many other activities kids in each school have to choose from. I know in Alex, we have a very good basketball program, solid in wresting, stellar swimming and diving and just a ton of other activities. I also think tradition plays a role. I imagine up in Greenway hockey is the sport many kids would love to play with the tradition it has up there. That, and some deep rooted hockey families who eat, drink and sleep hockey. I am guessing on those thoughts. I also wonder if the players in many northern communities spend more time on a pond playing for fun. I think that is something missing in many other communities in which kids only play hockey at the rink in a structured environment. I know in our town, I would love to see more outdoor rinks with younger players out playing for fun. That is where a lot of the creativity can be developed naturally.

All these thoughts are why I root pretty hard for the northern teams (at least when we don't play them).

Interesting stuff for us amateur social scientists working this all out. Back on the F/R thread I made some noise about graphing team success vs. F/R rate to see who seemed to overachieve and underachieve, and a few of us threw out some speculation on which schools did, I didn't go through with actually calculating anything since enrollment seemed like too big of an additional variable. (Mahtomedi may have a super low F/R rate, but it's still unfair to compare the Zephyrs to the Edinas and Minnetonkas of the world since the school is a fraction of the size.) If we could add another variable of hockey-playing population as greenwayraider suggests, though, we might get there if we use the raw number of non F/R boys a school has to draw from. As for zoomx's point about other options, youth numbers could be a helpful guide here...if two schools are the same size and have similar F/R rates and one fields four bantam teams while the other fields two, that's probably going to have a direct correlation to their success, as one is pretty clearly more of a hockey school than the other.

Someday we'll collectively develop some sort of massive Hockey Success Prediction Formula that takes every possible socioeconomic and cultural factor into account. The one thing that still might not be able to capture, though, is the tendency of hockey people to settle in certain areas. Greenway may not have big numbers, but did benefit from some impressive bloodlines for a few of the team's top players this past season. Edina, obviously, has had a tendency to collect metro-area hockey royalty over the years. We're certainly seeing some degree of that these days on the east side of Duluth as well, with a lot of last names from the early years of the Randolph Era now making their way through the program, and more to come from later years. Hermantown's success hasn't been sustained for long enough that we're seeing multiple generations yet, but as I've noted elsewhere, the Hawks have certainly benefited from close ties with current and past UMD coaches.

Speaking of new rinks/complexes like the new one being built in Elk River....I sole to a Hermonite today and a 10million dollar rink is in the works being engineered on paper. Hermantown will be drawing hockey players from sea to shining sea

kniven wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:53 pm Speaking of new rinks/complexes like the new one being built in Elk River....I sole to a Hermonite today and a 10million dollar rink is in the works being engineered on paper. Hermantown will be drawing hockey players from sea to shining sea

I have looked at drawings in my town for rinks anywhere from 4-20 million over the past 15 years. Word of advice: Don't get excited until the money is in the bank and the shovel is in the ground.

The rink in Hermantown is the only thing that has slowed that program down. They routinely have had 7 of their own on the Elite League team north every year since 2007. With this new hockey/rink complex in the works at Hermantown, that number will go up to 12 every fall. In 40 years, Hermantown will be called the greatest high school hockey franchise in Minnesota high school hockey history. You heard it here first. It obvious so not very difficult to predict. People don’t predict it now because they opt down when the playoffs/state tournament come around.

They may get better, but they NEVER will be considered the best HS hockey franchise in MN until they move to AA

It's impossible to accurately predict 40 years out. So much depends on the relative population growth of communities. And money will continue to play a big part in each community's success, as having kids in hockey will not be getting any cheaper. So while Hermantown may be getting a fancy new arena, in 40 years there will likely be outlying Twin Cities suburbs that will grow faster and have the money and support to build something just as attractive, if not more so.

As an avid hockey fan I applaud all of Hermantown's past success...just trying to be realistic in what may lie ahead.

kniven wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:01 pm The rink in Hermantown is the only thing that has slowed that program down. They routinely have had 7 of their own on the Elite League team north every year since 2007. With this new hockey/rink complex in the works at Hermantown, that number will go up to 12 every fall. In 40 years, Hermantown will be called the greatest high school hockey franchise in Minnesota high school hockey history. You heard it here first. It obvious so not very difficult to predict. People don’t predict it now because they opt down when the playoffs/state tournament come around.

Kniven you realize Cloquet had more guys rostered in the Elite League last year than Hermantown right...?

Yes I do. It was one time, and it will never happen again. In 2012-2013 fall league, CEC had 3 players in the elite league, which is the most we ever had until last year. ’ll always love the purple the best, absolutely, though despite this

Re: 7A - Thoughts
Post by PuckOff » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:45 am

Jeffy95 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:10 pm
Thunderstruck wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:49 am
As I sit watching the game on my9 I was wondering if anyone knew this stat for the Hawks. How many of the Hawks players started in Hermantown youth hockey from mites and are on the varsity. Not stirring the pot but just curious, we all know the Hawks get a ton of move ins.
They beat Eveleth 5-2 last night. Eveleth hung with them until the 3rd period when it was tied 2-2.

According to the hub:

1st goal was Hermantown, from Hermantown and Denfeld
2nd goal was Virginia from Proctor
3rd goal was Denfeld from Denfeld
4th goal was Proctor, from Denfeld and Ely
5th goal was Hermantown from Hayward and Virginia

3 points on the night from Hermantown kids. 10 Points from the others.
You can keep saying that kid is from Hayward, but he's not. He only played in Hayward 2 years. They moved because of a job change. The job was between Hayward and Duluth area. I mean c'mon, if you had the choice between playing for Hayward or Hermantown who would you pick? Where would you rather live?
Top

Crap, I tried to copy the last post from the 7A thread here, but it didn't quite format the way I'd hoped.

Anyway, in response to the Hayward poster: I don't think anyone has a problem with you (or whoever) moving to Hermantown. It's a free country. But, why didn't this family choose Cloquet, or East, or Superior? All very good programs, and just as close, if not closer. Could it be they chose Hermantown because it's an almost guaranteed trip to state? Could it be Hermantown players get to play 99% of their hockey careers vs AA teams, then step down to A teams once HS playoffs start, thereby getting the tough competition and the social media accolades?

The problem is Hermantown being a suburb of the Duluth metro area, and thus drawing in a huge chunk of talent from there and other 7A places. They benefit from being in a AA-sized area, yet don't have to go up to AA because their own school is A-sized. It's the same loophole that the private schools used to employ when they were beating Hermantown in the A title games, and Hermantown fans were livid about it. Why is it okay for them to do what they used to rail against?

Hermantown belongs in AA, and until they move up, the huge amount of transfers and open enrollees will be an ongoing discussion topic.

rainier2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:54 pmIt's the same loophole that the private schools used to employ when they were beating Hermantown in the A title games, and Hermantown fans were livid about it.

And the coach! Yes, great point.

Nobody cares if you opt up and lose. Nobody cares if you opt up and win. Play in the state tournament, reach a bunch of finals, and win some? Evidently folks in H-town didn't grow up with Sesame Street because one of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things just isn't right.

ironranger2 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 11:22 am I think anyone who has interacted with this kids dad is not surprised at all by this. Every program in the state has guys like him who are in it more for their own ego than what works for their kid. Is the kid a good player? Absolutely. Is he going to be a top line player at Hermantown? Probably not.

I think Elliott brought up a good point that I never really thought of. Weighing all other factors (and you took hockey out of the equation) most people would probably choose Hermantown to live vs. Grand Rapids or Duluth. So why should we be surprised when someone chooses to go play hockey there? I don't like it anymore than everyone else, but they are following the rules. It didn't really bother me last year when you had the two Hibbing kids go to Greenway, but if they had gone to Hermantown instead, my gut feeling would have probably been different.

IRMN is correct in that there is something about staying around and "leading" the next generation of players. Unfortunately, you won't see YHH and the Twitter gurus writing about those players, and dad wants to see his kid's name out there.

I feel bad for Virginia, but this isn't the first kid that has left and it definitely won't be the last. One of the guys I work with said it best...."Never underestimate the ego of parents with kids in HOCKEY!" Change it for you

You got that right, which sours being in and around the sport. The YHH seem to encourage it devoting a segment to this very xfer subject.

rainier2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:41 pm Re: 7A - Thoughts
Post by PuckOff » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:45 am

Jeffy95 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:10 pm
Thunderstruck wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:49 am
As I sit watching the game on my9 I was wondering if anyone knew this stat for the Hawks. How many of the Hawks players started in Hermantown youth hockey from mites and are on the varsity. Not stirring the pot but just curious, we all know the Hawks get a ton of move ins.
They beat Eveleth 5-2 last night. Eveleth hung with them until the 3rd period when it was tied 2-2.

According to the hub:

1st goal was Hermantown, from Hermantown and Denfeld
2nd goal was Virginia from Proctor
3rd goal was Denfeld from Denfeld
4th goal was Proctor, from Denfeld and Ely
5th goal was Hermantown from Hayward and Virginia

3 points on the night from Hermantown kids. 10 Points from the others.
You can keep saying that kid is from Hayward, but he's not. He only played in Hayward 2 years. They moved because of a job change. The job was between Hayward and Duluth area. I mean c'mon, if you had the choice between playing for Hayward or Hermantown who would you pick? Where would you rather live?
Top

WHAT?! The Hermantown "we don't recruit" sounds a bit hollow.