Osseo/Maple Grove - What Happens at High School

The Latest 400 or so Topics

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

tezer13
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:01 am

Osseo/Maple Grove - What Happens at High School

Post by tezer13 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:38 pm

I follow HS and Youth hockey pretty closely and I always see Osseo/Maple Grove at the top (or at least top 10) at every level of youth hockey. And I mean every level from AA to B at Bantams and Pee Wees. If I am not mistaken they have been up there for a at least a few years now.

Now Maple Grove has posted a few good teams in the last 10 years and certainly are a good program, meanwhile Osseo was 1-25 last season.

So... to reiterate the question, where are all these kids going? Are they all going to Maple Grove and underperforming?
Do enough of them split up at high school to keep the success moderate?
Or are there Private School poachers taking the talent?
Or all of the above?
Does anyone on the board have some insight, because it looks like they have enough talent in that system to support two pretty good programs.

kniven
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: Duluth area

Re: Osseo/Maple Grove - What Happens at High School

Post by kniven » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:10 pm

I’ve always wondered that too. For the last 5-6 years, they are a top program at every level it seems. I was talking to Bloomington Jefferson coaches/parents at the beginning of the hockey season. Privates in the metro sucks in a lot of the high end talent in the metro - they told me.

LSQRANK
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:05 pm

Re: Osseo/Maple Grove - What Happens at High School

Post by LSQRANK » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:46 pm

kniven wrote:I’ve always wondered that too. For the last 5-6 years, they are a top program at every level it seems. I was talking to Bloomington Jefferson coaches/parents at the beginning of the hockey season. Privates in the metro sucks in a lot of the high end talent in the metro - they told me.
Which private school is closest to the Maple Grove school district that is high profile enough to draw a decent OMGR player away from their local HS?

minnscout
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:35 pm

Post by minnscout » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:24 pm

Maple Grove has not lost many players to private schools. The majority of the top players have stayed (almost all) at Maple Grove. Obviously they just have not done a good job developing their players. One thing I notice at the bantam level is the play to win at all costs mentality regarding playing time for players not on top 2 lines.

green4
Posts: 1477
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:02 am
Location: Edina

Post by green4 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:25 pm

I think a key difference between Osseo and Maple Grove has to do with demographics. The city of Osseo area and population wise is tiny. Osseo high school has kids from Maple Grove, but it also takes a lot of kids from Brooklyn Park. The Maple Grove high school takes kids from Dayton, Rogers, Corcoran and of course Maple Grove. Look at the demographics of those cities vs. Brooklyn Park and Osseo and that would be why I think you are seeing Osseo struggle in hockey.

I think Maple Grove has had some nice teams, but they seem to underperform compared to the hype you hear coming in. I know they lost that one kid to the US development team, Janicke?

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2482
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:20 am

green4 wrote:I think a key difference between Osseo and Maple Grove has to do with demographics. The city of Osseo area and population wise is tiny. Osseo high school has kids from Maple Grove, but it also takes a lot of kids from Brooklyn Park. The Maple Grove high school takes kids from Dayton, Rogers, Corcoran and of course Maple Grove. Look at the demographics of those cities vs. Brooklyn Park and Osseo and that would be why I think you are seeing Osseo struggle in hockey.

I think Maple Grove has had some nice teams, but they seem to underperform compared to the hype you hear coming in. I know they lost that one kid to the US development team, Janicke?
You are probably right green but I understand the op's question too. If it is demographics you wouldn't think they would be so good at the pee wee and bantam levels.

east hockey
Site Admin
Posts: 6968
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:33 pm
Location: Proctor, MN
Contact:

Re: Osseo/Maple Grove - What Happens at High School

Post by east hockey » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:51 am

LSQRANK wrote:
kniven wrote:I’ve always wondered that too. For the last 5-6 years, they are a top program at every level it seems. I was talking to Bloomington Jefferson coaches/parents at the beginning of the hockey season. Privates in the metro sucks in a lot of the high end talent in the metro - they told me.
Which private school is closest to the Maple Grove school district that is high profile enough to draw a decent OMGR player away from their local HS?
Totino-Grace? Used to be high profile, anyway.

Lee
Message Board arsonist since 2005
Egomaniac since 2006

Mite-dad
Posts: 1110
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:16 am

Post by Mite-dad » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:36 am

Funny, I've often wondered about this question too.

BP
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:31 am

Post by BP » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:13 am

Their current 9th and 8th grade classes are at the top end of the entire state. It'll be interesting to see how they do n the next 3 years if all stay at MG. I know one of the 8th graders is heading to a private school - but sounds like the rest will be at MG next year.

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:33 am

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:32 am

Their youth numbers are off the charts. You can expect 1-2 top end kids every year to bail for greener pastures but with over 100 kids in each age group trying out, someone will be there to pick up the slack

Every large school that "under performs" usually does so for similar reasons.

1. Focus on winning way to early (by doing things like having a PP and PK in squirts and pee wees)
2. Focus on having set 1st, 2nd and 3rd line in Squirts and pee wees
3. Giving kids "roles" way to early (Squirt 3rd line- You're job is to dump and chase)
4. Playing way to many games/tournaments and not practicing nearly enough

I'm not saying MG does all of these, their parents can answer that question better than we can.

MG did a very smart thing a couple years back by going to two squirt A teams (something Edina has done for years). This will pay off. I do think Maple Grove needs to break it off with Osseo and have it's own identity. Long term it will strength their community and kids will feel more loyalty playing for their town

The other thing I'd like to see MG do is force the City to reduce the size of their Olympic sheet of ice. Kids need small spaces to develop. Not bigger ice

A strong board leadership can help programs like this stay on the right path. Personally I like what I see. Whenever I watch their games whether it's a squirt game or a bantam, they can all skate, they can all move the puck and they all seem to enjoy playing the game. They will compete for a state title or two very soon. I just can't see any good reasons why they won't

green4
Posts: 1477
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:02 am
Location: Edina

Post by green4 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:48 am

grindiangrad-80 wrote:
green4 wrote:I think a key difference between Osseo and Maple Grove has to do with demographics. The city of Osseo area and population wise is tiny. Osseo high school has kids from Maple Grove, but it also takes a lot of kids from Brooklyn Park. The Maple Grove high school takes kids from Dayton, Rogers, Corcoran and of course Maple Grove. Look at the demographics of those cities vs. Brooklyn Park and Osseo and that would be why I think you are seeing Osseo struggle in hockey.

I think Maple Grove has had some nice teams, but they seem to underperform compared to the hype you hear coming in. I know they lost that one kid to the US development team, Janicke?
You are probably right green but I understand the op's question too. If it is demographics you wouldn't think they would be so good at the pee wee and bantam levels.
Well they are combined at the youth level. You have young affluent communities like Maple Grove and the cities farther Northwest combined with these older first ring suburbs like Brooklyn Park. There is plenty of talent in Maple Grove, that is why I think they underperform a bit at high school, but then in youth you add a few talented players from Osseo or Brooklyn Park and that is why they are good.
Once you split the youth team up into two groups that is when they struggle. I don't think that system of splitting a youth group in two works very well, so maybe that is part of the problem too. I would imagine they combine their youth teams because Osseo might have a hard time fielding teams on their own.

VicKevlar
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:47 pm

Post by VicKevlar » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:55 am

yesiplayedhockey wrote: 4. Playing way to many gam I do think Maple Grove needs to break it off with Osseo and have it's own identity. Long term it will strength their community and kids will feel more loyalty playing for their town
Never going to happen. MG needs those two sheets of ice at Osseo. OMGHA have four sheets now and it's nowhere near enough. OMGHA gets a alot of ice at Brooklyn Park and this year started getting ice at Mariucci and Ridder.

Maple Grove voted down a third indoor rink last year. Now they are working on getting a third sheet at Osseo.

BodyShots
Posts: 1830
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:44 am

Post by BodyShots » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:11 am

green4 wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:
green4 wrote:I think a key difference between Osseo and Maple Grove has to do with demographics. The city of Osseo area and population wise is tiny. Osseo high school has kids from Maple Grove, but it also takes a lot of kids from Brooklyn Park. The Maple Grove high school takes kids from Dayton, Rogers, Corcoran and of course Maple Grove. Look at the demographics of those cities vs. Brooklyn Park and Osseo and that would be why I think you are seeing Osseo struggle in hockey.

I think Maple Grove has had some nice teams, but they seem to underperform compared to the hype you hear coming in. I know they lost that one kid to the US development team, Janicke?
You are probably right green but I understand the op's question too. If it is demographics you wouldn't think they would be so good at the pee wee and bantam levels.
Well they are combined at the youth level. You have young affluent communities like Maple Grove and the cities farther Northwest combined with these older first ring suburbs like Brooklyn Park. There is plenty of talent in Maple Grove, that is why I think they underperform a bit at high school, but then in youth you add a few talented players from Osseo or Brooklyn Park and that is why they are good.
Once you split the youth team up into two groups that is when they struggle. I don't think that system of splitting a youth group in two works very well, so maybe that is part of the problem too. I would imagine they combine their youth teams because Osseo might have a hard time fielding teams on their own.
Same issue Roseville had back in the 70's and 80's. Youth teams used to dominate, but then the kids got split up into 2 high schools, Kellogg and Ramsey, and never did much. Heck, you could add HM in there as well, because they always got a quality player or two from the Roseville area.

Schotzy
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:36 am

Post by Schotzy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 am

Chaska/Chanhassen is another, yet not quite as perfect, example of this.

BP
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:31 am

Post by BP » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:57 am

yesiplayedhockey wrote:Their youth numbers are off the charts. You can expect 1-2 top end kids every year to bail for greener pastures but with over 100 kids in each age group trying out, someone will be there to pick up the slack

Every large school that "under performs" usually does so for similar reasons.

1. Focus on winning way to early (by doing things like having a PP and PK in squirts and pee wees)
2. Focus on having set 1st, 2nd and 3rd line in Squirts and pee wees
3. Giving kids "roles" way to early (Squirt 3rd line- You're job is to dump and chase)
4. Playing way to many games/tournaments and not practicing nearly enough

I'm not saying MG does all of these, their parents can answer that question better than we can.

MG did a very smart thing a couple years back by going to two squirt A teams (something Edina has done for years). This will pay off. I do think Maple Grove needs to break it off with Osseo and have it's own identity. Long term it will strength their community and kids will feel more loyalty playing for their town

The other thing I'd like to see MG do is force the City to reduce the size of their Olympic sheet of ice. Kids need small spaces to develop. Not bigger ice

A strong board leadership can help programs like this stay on the right path. Personally I like what I see. Whenever I watch their games whether it's a squirt game or a bantam, they can all skate, they can all move the puck and they all seem to enjoy playing the game. They will compete for a state title or two very soon. I just can't see any good reasons why they won't
In all seriousness - you really get it about youth hockey and hope you are involved in youth hockey in some capacity - coaching, board, etc. Good stuff.

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Post by SCBlueLiner » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:05 am

Didn't OMGHA have a dustup within the last two years where the MG side wanted to break off from the Osseo side and the Osseo kids would have ended up at North Metro? Seem to recall the reason it didn't happen was a lack of ice in MG.

I spoke with a MG player who left there a few years ago to play Tier 1, Omaha, I believe. I asked him why he would leave MG, if you are good player in the Metro there will be opportunities, was my reasoning. He said it isn't all it appears to be, coaching and development was really lacking. Leaving was the best option for him and he was glad he did it.

Solid Bantam squad from OMGHA this year. Will be interested to see how they progress through the years.

tourneytickssince59
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:00 pm

Post by tourneytickssince59 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:46 am

yesiplayedhockey wrote:Their youth numbers are off the charts. You can expect 1-2 top end kids every year to bail for greener pastures but with over 100 kids in each age group trying out, someone will be there to pick up the slack

Every large school that "under performs" usually does so for similar reasons.

1. Focus on winning way to early (by doing things like having a PP and PK in squirts and pee wees)
2. Focus on having set 1st, 2nd and 3rd line in Squirts and pee wees
3. Giving kids "roles" way to early (Squirt 3rd line- You're job is to dump and chase)
4. Playing way to many games/tournaments and not practicing nearly enough
t
Nailed it. This is happening now in an Eastern Suburb.

victor maitland
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:49 am

Post by victor maitland » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:55 am

Went to state last year. Graduated 16 Seniors. Less than 50 kids tried out this year. Junior and Senior classes are the smallest MG has had in a long time. Janicke is at USNDP. Two former bantam aa kids are with BSM. Maybe one or two at Prov. They will be fine.

Stang5280
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:12 pm

Post by Stang5280 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:45 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote:Didn't OMGHA have a dustup within the last two years where the MG side wanted to break off from the Osseo side and the Osseo kids would have ended up at North Metro? Seem to recall the reason it didn't happen was a lack of ice in MG.

I spoke with a MG player who left there a few years ago to play Tier 1, Omaha, I believe. I asked him why he would leave MG, if you are good player in the Metro there will be opportunities, was my reasoning. He said it isn't all it appears to be, coaching and development was really lacking. Leaving was the best option for him and he was glad he did it.

Solid Bantam squad from OMGHA this year. Will be interested to see how they progress through the years.
You are correct about MG wanting to separate from Osseo a few years back and the main reason why it didn’t happen. In fact, at the school district level you could go back years ago and there were numerous discussions about breaking the district in half between the Brooklyn Park (Park Center) and Osseo sides, well before Maple Grove HS even existed.

I still think it was a mistake for MG to fire their former head coach, Gary Stefano, who basically was the fall guy for off ice indiscretions. He was an outstanding coach and basically put the program on the map from scratch. I have also heard from friends who have kids at MGHS that it is a rather toxic atmosphere in general at the school, particularly in terms of wealth disparities.

Stang5280
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:12 pm

Re: Osseo/Maple Grove - What Happens at High School

Post by Stang5280 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:56 pm

east hockey wrote:
LSQRANK wrote:
kniven wrote:I’ve always wondered that too. For the last 5-6 years, they are a top program at every level it seems. I was talking to Bloomington Jefferson coaches/parents at the beginning of the hockey season. Privates in the metro sucks in a lot of the high end talent in the metro - they told me.
Which private school is closest to the Maple Grove school district that is high profile enough to draw a decent OMGR player away from their local HS?
Totino-Grace? Used to be high profile, anyway.

Lee
TG mainly had a recruiting base in the nearby northern suburbs like Brooklyn Park, New Brighton, Mounds View, Spring Lake Park, etc. The drop off in youth talent from those areas over the past decade has coincided with TG’s own downturn. I know that the current TG roster has several kids from Rogers, due to family connections and/or the weak Rogers HS program.

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2482
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:09 pm

green4 wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:
green4 wrote:I think a key difference between Osseo and Maple Grove has to do with demographics. The city of Osseo area and population wise is tiny. Osseo high school has kids from Maple Grove, but it also takes a lot of kids from Brooklyn Park. The Maple Grove high school takes kids from Dayton, Rogers, Corcoran and of course Maple Grove. Look at the demographics of those cities vs. Brooklyn Park and Osseo and that would be why I think you are seeing Osseo struggle in hockey.

I think Maple Grove has had some nice teams, but they seem to underperform compared to the hype you hear coming in. I know they lost that one kid to the US development team, Janicke?
You are probably right green but I understand the op's question too. If it is demographics you wouldn't think they would be so good at the pee wee and bantam levels.
Well they are combined at the youth level. You have young affluent communities like Maple Grove and the cities farther Northwest combined with these older first ring suburbs like Brooklyn Park. There is plenty of talent in Maple Grove, that is why I think they underperform a bit at high school, but then in youth you add a few talented players from Osseo or Brooklyn Park and that is why they are good.
Once you split the youth team up into two groups that is when they struggle. I don't think that system of splitting a youth group in two works very well, so maybe that is part of the problem too. I would imagine they combine their youth teams because Osseo might have a hard time fielding teams on their own.
That makes sense.

hockey59
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 11:01 am

Post by hockey59 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:16 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote:Didn't OMGHA have a dustup within the last two years where the MG side wanted to break off from the Osseo side and the Osseo kids would have ended up at North Metro? Seem to recall the reason it didn't happen was a lack of ice in MG.

I spoke with a MG player who left there a few years ago to play Tier 1, Omaha, I believe. I asked him why he would leave MG, if you are good player in the Metro there will be opportunities, was my reasoning. He said it isn't all it appears to be, coaching and development was really lacking. Leaving was the best option for him and he was glad he did it.

Solid Bantam squad from OMGHA this year. Will be interested to see how they progress through the years.
You are correct about MG wanting to separate from Osseo a few years back and the main reason why it didn’t happen. In fact, at the school district level you could go back years ago and there were numerous discussions about breaking the district in half between the Brooklyn Park (Park Center) and Osseo sides, well before Maple Grove HS even existed.

I still think it was a mistake for MG to fire their former head coach, Gary Stefano, who basically was the fall guy for off ice indiscretions. He was an outstanding coach and basically put the program on the map from scratch. I have also heard from friends who have kids at MGHS that it is a rather toxic atmosphere in general at the school, particularly in terms of wealth disparities.
Nothing against Stefano, he did a good job in their early years, but Bergland has got them to a section final as the 4 seed & a State Tourney as the 2 seed. They are young this year, but next year will be the favorite to win the Section. And wealth disparities are present at most of the large suburban schools, I don’t see MG as being all that much different in that regard. And the kid SC Blueliner is referring to who left for Omaha AAA for development purposes?..LOL Pretty sure I know who he isn’t talking about...and I doubt the other MG players missed him much when he left 😉
Last edited by hockey59 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2482
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:19 pm

tourneytickssince59 wrote:
yesiplayedhockey wrote:Their youth numbers are off the charts. You can expect 1-2 top end kids every year to bail for greener pastures but with over 100 kids in each age group trying out, someone will be there to pick up the slack

Every large school that "under performs" usually does so for similar reasons.

1. Focus on winning way to early (by doing things like having a PP and PK in squirts and pee wees)
2. Focus on having set 1st, 2nd and 3rd line in Squirts and pee wees
3. Giving kids "roles" way to early (Squirt 3rd line- You're job is to dump and chase)
4. Playing way to many games/tournaments and not practicing nearly enough
t
Nailed it. This is happening now in an Eastern Suburb.
This = most kids not having fun playing. And you see it all over the country in all sports. Some parents make excellent coaches and I believe that most of the others mean well. I just think there is a little too much parent involvement often times. Probably not an easy solution to it.

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:33 am

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:43 pm

You are right. I've seen it work both ways in regards to parent coaches

Sometimes they behave correctly yet often they are only there for their kid.

On the flip side. Sometimes a 25 year old coach with a big heart and a chiseled smile has no clue how to motivate/manage 9 year old kids because he's never had kids. He yells at them when he should be putting his arms around them. He doesn't have a vested interest in the program so he shows up minutes before practice with little thought into what they will be doing that hour.

There is no right answer. You interview all and pick the most qualified person for the job. You have a strong board that has policies and expectations in place /documented to manage it. In general, I'd say absolutely no parent coaches at the higher end bantam level. I think parent coaches at the squirt and pee wee level is acceptable but again it has to be managed correctly and it definitely needs to be monitored.




grindiangrad-80 wrote:
tourneytickssince59 wrote:
yesiplayedhockey wrote:Their youth numbers are off the charts. You can expect 1-2 top end kids every year to bail for greener pastures but with over 100 kids in each age group trying out, someone will be there to pick up the slack

Every large school that "under performs" usually does so for similar reasons.

1. Focus on winning way to early (by doing things like having a PP and PK in squirts and pee wees)
2. Focus on having set 1st, 2nd and 3rd line in Squirts and pee wees
3. Giving kids "roles" way to early (Squirt 3rd line- You're job is to dump and chase)
4. Playing way to many games/tournaments and not practicing nearly enough
t
Nailed it. This is happening now in an Eastern Suburb.
This = most kids not having fun playing. And you see it all over the country in all sports. Some parents make excellent coaches and I believe that most of the others mean well. I just think there is a little too much parent involvement often times. Probably not an easy solution to it.

Stang5280
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:12 pm

Post by Stang5280 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:18 pm

hockey59 wrote:
Stang5280 wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote:Didn't OMGHA have a dustup within the last two years where the MG side wanted to break off from the Osseo side and the Osseo kids would have ended up at North Metro? Seem to recall the reason it didn't happen was a lack of ice in MG.

I spoke with a MG player who left there a few years ago to play Tier 1, Omaha, I believe. I asked him why he would leave MG, if you are good player in the Metro there will be opportunities, was my reasoning. He said it isn't all it appears to be, coaching and development was really lacking. Leaving was the best option for him and he was glad he did it.

Solid Bantam squad from OMGHA this year. Will be interested to see how they progress through the years.
You are correct about MG wanting to separate from Osseo a few years back and the main reason why it didn’t happen. In fact, at the school district level you could go back years ago and there were numerous discussions about breaking the district in half between the Brooklyn Park (Park Center) and Osseo sides, well before Maple Grove HS even existed.

I still think it was a mistake for MG to fire their former head coach, Gary Stefano, who basically was the fall guy for off ice indiscretions. He was an outstanding coach and basically put the program on the map from scratch. I have also heard from friends who have kids at MGHS that it is a rather toxic atmosphere in general at the school, particularly in terms of wealth disparities.
Nothing against Stefano, he did a good job in their early years, but Bergland has got them to a section final as the 4 seed & a State Tourney as the 2 seed. They are young this year, but next year will be the favorite to win the Section. And wealth disparities are present at most of the large suburban schools, I don’t see MG as being all that much different in that regard. And the kid SC Blueliner is referring to who left for Omaha AAA for development purposes?..LOL Pretty sure I know who he isn’t talking about...and I doubt the other MG players missed him much when he left 😉
Stefano was ousted in 2013, so I would say that is more than a few years ago at this point. With the exception of last year’ state tournament run, MG has been extremely mediocre during Bergland’s tenure (.500 or below in two of his four years). I wouldn’t exactly say that a section final run as a four seed is a great accomplishment, either. MG had one upset win over Blaine in the semis, and then were promptly spanked by Anoka. And the two section wins merely brought them to .500 for the season. That’s not exactly a successful campaign for a team with that much talent.

Post Reply