7AA 2018-2019

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northwoods oldtimer
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:39 pm

alcloseshaver wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:19 pm
Doesn't help your QRF playing single A teams.
Sad but true you are better off playing low to middle of pack AA teams as opposed to top A teams. QRF be like that #-o

alcloseshaver
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by alcloseshaver » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm

Exactly, advantage to the metro schools, East minimizes A schools the best it can.

kniven
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by kniven » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:38 pm

alcloseshaver wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm
Exactly, advantage to the metro schools, East minimizes A schools the best it can.

Ain’t that the truth. That’s all right. I guess I don’t care too much for QRF. Playing the local range A schools is pretty awesome.

Stang5280
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Stang5280 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:32 pm

alcloseshaver wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm
Exactly, advantage to the metro schools, East minimizes A schools the best it can.
The best it can? Denfeld has been the only Class A competition on East’s schedule the past few years. They have the resources and name brand to schedule pretty much any AA program they want. Yes, they spend plenty of time traveling, but East made the choice to go independent a number of years ago because they are essentially a suburban metro school that happens to be located on a geographic island in Duluth.

kniven
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by kniven » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:47 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:32 pm
alcloseshaver wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm
Exactly, advantage to the metro schools, East minimizes A schools the best it can.
The best it can? Denfeld has been the only Class A competition on East’s schedule the past few years. They have the resources and name brand to schedule pretty much any AA program they want. Yes, they spend plenty of time traveling, but East made the choice to go independent a number of years ago because they are essentially a suburban metro school that happens to be located on a geographic island in Duluth.
I think the entire Duluth East High School hockey brand is second to nobody. If I weren’t such a CEC Lumberjacks homer, I would be onboard in second.

northwoods oldtimer
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:28 am

kniven wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:47 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:32 pm
alcloseshaver wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm
Exactly, advantage to the metro schools, East minimizes A schools the best it can.
The best it can? Denfeld has been the only Class A competition on East’s schedule the past few years. They have the resources and name brand to schedule pretty much any AA program they want. Yes, they spend plenty of time traveling, but East made the choice to go independent a number of years ago because they are essentially a suburban metro school that happens to be located on a geographic island in Duluth.
I think the entire Duluth East High School hockey brand is second to nobody. If I weren’t such a CEC Lumberjacks homer, I would be onboard in second.
I thought you would be on board with your "favorite" team highway 2 west of Duluth if not such a diehard CEC guy? [-X

Usthockey13
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Usthockey13 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:55 am

Qrf is final for 7AA
1Andover
2Duluth East
3 CEC
4 Flake
5 Elk River
6 G Rapids
7 Duluth Marshall
8 St Francis
9 CBI

That guy for that thing
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by That guy for that thing » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:05 am

Usthockey13 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:55 am
Qrf is final for 7AA
1Andover
2Duluth East
3 CEC
4 Flake
5 Elk River
6 G Rapids
7 Duluth Marshall
8 St Francis
9 CBI
With this seeding, I am picking Andover to go to the X. They will walk past Flake/ER easily, and it won't be a very physical game like the DE/CEC game. That will be one hell of a semi, and really physical. Whoever wins that one will be pretty banged up for a quick speedy Andover team. I dont think Deast will have the energy to keep up with Andover, even with 3 games in 3 weeks. They will be pretty beat up if they get past CEC, and same for the Jacks if they get past DE.

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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by TheHockeyDJ » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:33 am

Usthockey13 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:55 am
Qrf is final for 7AA
1Andover
2Duluth East
3 CEC
4 Flake
5 Elk River
6 G Rapids
7 Duluth Marshall
8 St Francis
9 CBI
Anyone who said the QRF would correct itself by seasons end is wrong. The obvious 7 seed gets a the 4 seed. Forest Lake went 0-6 against the 7AA teams around them at 1-7. The have 0 quality wins on their season. Complete travesty. Besides that, having the northern teams on one side and the southern teams other side of the bracket makes for the most undesirable bracket you can get. No one in the northland wants to see Andover vs Elk River in the semifinals. This also promises a southern team in the final, though I know it seems obvious Andover would be there either way. But congrats to Forest Lake on playing a cupcake schedule, getting steamrolled in section play, and getting a seed you did Nothing to earn.
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Usthockey13
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Usthockey13 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:41 am

I would say it’s a cake walk to the finals for Andover but if they get the Hounds gonna be tough. Andover by then wouldn’t have played a good team in over a month. So they might win on their talent but if it close who knows. I think rapids will upset Cec.

Jeffy95
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:06 am

TheHockeyDJ wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:33 am
Usthockey13 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:55 am
Qrf is final for 7AA
1Andover
2Duluth East
3 CEC
4 Flake
5 Elk River
6 G Rapids
7 Duluth Marshall
8 St Francis
9 CBI
Anyone who said the QRF would correct itself by seasons end is wrong. The obvious 7 seed gets a the 4 seed. Forest Lake went 0-6 against the 7AA teams around them at 1-7. The have 0 quality wins on their season. Complete travesty. Besides that, having the northern teams on one side and the southern teams other side of the bracket makes for the most undesirable bracket you can get. No one in the northland wants to see Andover vs Elk River in the semifinals. This also promises a southern team in the final, though I know it seems obvious Andover would be there either way. But congrats to Forest Lake on playing a cupcake schedule, getting steamrolled in section play, and getting a seed you did Nothing to earn.
It did correct itself. Forest Lake didn't schedule an A team twice that they would lose to. Rapids totally screwed themselves. Flake was smarter and got rewarded for it. Rapids better figure that out before next year. It sucks for us Northern Fans because they could have had an easy path to the Semis when nobody thought they would be there this year. Would have been a great story and good momentum going into next year.

Jeffy95
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:08 am

It takes longer some years, but Randolph has his team right where he wants them right now. They will win the Section and be back at State. Hope they get at least a 5 seed to set up a possible Semi with Edina.

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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by TheHockeyDJ » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:13 am

It’s not a bad decision to play a powerhouse like Hermantown ever. The problem lies in the QRF classification of Hermantown as a lesser opponent simply because they are class A. The problem also lies in the points awarded to Forest Lake in their wins against complete basement dwellers. With any logic applied to the seeds, Forest Lake is a 7 and only a 7. Where my favorite team should be seeded is another conversation. I’m purely talking about Forest Lake’s results in relation to the rest of the entire section.

As for Rapids, I agree Jeffy that it would have been more exciting for them to be a 5 seed and get that chance as a late season surging underdog to just get to Amsoil for the chance to play Andover.
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MNGuide
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by MNGuide » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:33 am

I’m sorry but QRF should be abolished immediately for section seeding purposes. FLake goes 0-6 vs seeds 1-7 and ends up the 4. Absolutely unfair to these kids

Edinahopkins
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Edinahopkins » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:45 am

As much as I hate to say it if Hermantown does not move up rapids should drop them next year, play Bemidji and brainerd home and home it’s the same distance. I am also sure you could probably get Moorhead and Roseau to also play home and home just play greenway for single A teams once a year like east plays The hunters. That is if they keep QRF next year It doesn’t bother me this year but it was a cool story and the kids deserved the 5 because of the hard work they put in but after this year seeding is going to matter more for Rapids as they continue to get better.

Jeffy95
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:00 am

Edinahopkins wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:45 am
As much as I hate to say it if Hermantown does not move up rapids should drop them next year, play Bemidji and brainerd home and home it’s the same distance. I am also sure you could probably get Moorhead and Roseau to also play home and home just play greenway for single A teams once a year like east plays The hunters. That is if they keep QRF next year It doesn’t bother me this year but it was a cool story and the kids deserved the 5 because of the hard work they put in but after this year seeding is going to matter more for Rapids as they continue to get better.
Couldn't agree more, they absolutely deserved the 4 or 5 with a great chance of advancing. Instead, we get Cloquet or Rapids one and done. It's really going to suck for them down the road if they're fighting for a 1 vs. 2 or 3 vs. 4. Even a 4 instead of a 5 gets you a home game which is huge. Really sucks for Cloquet and Marshall too because they have to play them. Probably time to do away with conferences.

longrebound
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by longrebound » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:05 am

The section uses QRF because Grand Rapids got "screwed" by the coaches in the 2017 vote. As much as people like to blame the southern coaches for using QRF, it was Rapids that initiated, lobbied for, and drove the change.

And, as much as people may want it, there is no chance that there will be a face-to-face meeting under the current choices. The only face-to-face option offered was a 6 PM meeting in Duluth, where coaches would have to miss practice that day to attend (or at least all except East and CEC). That is not appealing to most. If Hinckley was an option, I think the coaches might go for it, but in the end there is not much difference.

QRF got it mostly right both last year and this year with the exception of one team. That is probably better than the coaches did over the several years prior.

elliott70
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by elliott70 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:18 am

Explain to me why GRapids would rather play at Elk River than at Cloquet.
They beat Cloquet, they lost to Elk River, an hour plus to Cloquet on the bus, 3 hours plus on the bus to Elk River on the bus.....

Yes, the QRF got it wrong, but coaches get it wrong, have lots of times.

I would think the players would be excited to go to Cloquet.

rainier2
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by rainier2 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:29 am

TheHockeyDJ wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:13 am
It’s not a bad decision to play a powerhouse like Hermantown ever. The problem lies in the QRF classification of Hermantown as a lesser opponent simply because they are class A. The problem also lies in the points awarded to Forest Lake in their wins against complete basement dwellers. With any logic applied to the seeds, Forest Lake is a 7 and only a 7. Where my favorite team should be seeded is another conversation. I’m purely talking about Forest Lake’s results in relation to the rest of the entire section.

As for Rapids, I agree Jeffy that it would have been more exciting for them to be a 5 seed and get that chance as a late season surging underdog to just get to Amsoil for the chance to play Andover.
You are absolutely, 100% correct that "the QRF classification of Hermantown as a lesser opponent simply because they are Class A" is the problem. However, as long as this core problem remains in place, then it is a bad decision to play Hermantown.

As someone else mentioned, GR could schedule a 2nd game with Brainerd, Bemidji, Roseau, Moorhead, or even East. Or the St. Cloud AA team. And I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find another metro team or two that would be willing to have a northwoods adventure every other year. Hermantown is an hour and twenty minutes from GR, so adding on one extra hour of travel every other year to face a metro team instead shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

That guy for that thing
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by That guy for that thing » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:32 am

elliott70 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:18 am
Explain to me why GRapids would rather play at Elk River than at Cloquet.
They beat Cloquet, they lost to Elk River, an hour plus to Cloquet on the bus, 3 hours plus on the bus to Elk River on the bus.....

Yes, the QRF got it wrong, but coaches get it wrong, have lots of times.

I would think the players would be excited to go to Cloquet.
GR lost to ER by 1 goal back at New Years. Comparing today's GR to New Years GR you have 2 different teams. I think GR would win the ER game, even in ER, right now.

hockey59
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by hockey59 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:33 am

elliott70 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:18 am
Explain to me why GRapids would rather play at Elk River than at Cloquet.
They beat Cloquet, they lost to Elk River, an hour plus to Cloquet on the bus, 3 hours plus on the bus to Elk River on the bus.....

Yes, the QRF got it wrong, but coaches get it wrong, have lots of times.

I would think the players would be excited to go to Cloquet.
All I can say is I expect Cloquet to win at home Tuesday if they play the way they did against HT last Wednesday. And GR is having a great 2nd half surge, credit to them! But the entire seasons work does count relating to seeding teams.

Jeffy95
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:34 am

longrebound wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:05 am
The section uses QRF because Grand Rapids got "screwed" by the coaches in the 2017 vote. As much as people like to blame the southern coaches for using QRF, it was Rapids that initiated, lobbied for, and drove the change.

And, as much as people may want it, there is no chance that there will be a face-to-face meeting under the current choices. The only face-to-face option offered was a 6 PM meeting in Duluth, where coaches would have to miss practice that day to attend (or at least all except East and CEC). That is not appealing to most. If Hinckley was an option, I think the coaches might go for it, but in the end there is not much difference.

QRF got it mostly right both last year and this year with the exception of one team. That is probably better than the coaches did over the several years prior.
You're right, QRF is not the problem. Just as many complaints or more with coaches vote. No bias or self interest with computers, where humans will always have it. Class A teams are supposed to be "lesser" opponents by definition. The computer simply recognizes that. It works for all but one program because of the sheer improbability of that situation. Take away those two losses and Rapids is above Flake and Elky where they belong. The good news is that it's a simple fix with scheduling.

elliott70
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by elliott70 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 am

With out knowing the exact formula it is hard (impossible) to tell which are better - low level AA versus high level A opponents.

TheHockeyDJ
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by TheHockeyDJ » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:25 pm

While the coaches got it wrong at times, it was by one slot, not 3. We aren’t talking about an inaccuracy here with the QRF. We are talking about a mind boggling gross inaccuracy. Understandably Grand Rapids wanted a change, however QRF was not the answer. Page stat is probably the best option for a computer generated ranking. The problem this year is whether in section or outside the section, Forest Lake did nothing to be at 6 ahead of Duluth Marshall, and yet they are 4. On the separate topic of who I would have preferred Rapids play, Elk River without hesitation for reasons already mentioned. All that said, Rapids can only do what they can at this point. Look at the opportunity in front of you. You just beat CEC and get a chance to play them again. You were up 3 to 1 at East in a game where at that point in the season were not playing your best and with players out of the lineup. Now Rapids is healthy and playing their best going into sections. So they should have confidence going into Tuesday.
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northwoods oldtimer
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Re: 7AA 2018-2019

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:44 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:00 am
Edinahopkins wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:45 am
As much as I hate to say it if Hermantown does not move up rapids should drop them next year, play Bemidji and brainerd home and home it’s the same distance. I am also sure you could probably get Moorhead and Roseau to also play home and home just play greenway for single A teams once a year like east plays The hunters. That is if they keep QRF next year It doesn’t bother me this year but it was a cool story and the kids deserved the 5 because of the hard work they put in but after this year seeding is going to matter more for Rapids as they continue to get better.
Couldn't agree more, they absolutely deserved the 4 or 5 with a great chance of advancing. Instead, we get Cloquet or Rapids one and done. It's really going to suck for them down the road if they're fighting for a 1 vs. 2 or 3 vs. 4. Even a 4 instead of a 5 gets you a home game which is huge. Really sucks for Cloquet and Marshall too because they have to play them. Probably time to do away with conferences.
Rapids doesn't play conference. They went independent a few years back. Agree to drop all single A and play Greenway only. Elks got jobbed as well. No way Forest Lake deserves the 4 spot should be Elks.

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