Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

The Latest 400 or so Topics

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

MN Hockey change the age cut-off?

Yes, Keep July 1
17
52%
No, change to June 1
2
6%
No, change to calendar year
10
30%
No, change to Sept 1
4
12%
 
Total votes: 33

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:36 am

I know this is a youth hockey question but since bantams flows into high school and the two are connected in a manner,
I thought I would ask this of the 'bored' group.


Minnesota Hockey will be considering the age cut-off date at its state meeting this coming weekend 1/25 to 1/27.
They (we) will be considering the change from June 30/July1 to May 31\June 1.
For those that do not know the age cut-off was Sept 1 to coincide with school.
The rest of the country for the most part uses the calendar year.


Feedback?

blueline_6
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by blueline_6 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am

Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am

blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am
Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?
No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.

O-townClown
Posts: 3614
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by O-townClown » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:51 am

Mark,

I find Minnesota on an island within USA Hockey. Obviously they can do whatever they want. One question is why don't they let Pee Wees check (since they are registered as Bantams) and have Bantams permitted to throw the puck down shorthanded (since they are registered as 16U teams)?
Be kind. Rewind.

Jeffy95
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Jeffy95 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:59 am

elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am
Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?
No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
Let me guess. A few parents who have kids with June birthdays and held them back from Kindergarten want them to be the oldest at the level and use the grade argument? I suppose the July and August Birthday parents made the same case when MN Hockey changed it to July 1st.

I'm assuming the majority of kids with June birthdays start Kindergarten at 5. (Maybe someone has the stats). If those kids want to continue to move up with their grade, they will be at the mercy of their Association's numbers and move-up policy. September 1st is the only logical date that makes any sense. Little League finally realized that and changed it. Any other date is arbitrary and made up to appease a small group.

The Exiled One
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by The Exiled One » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am
Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?
No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
I can only speak for my association, but I have 22 late summer birthdays "playing up" with their classmates. However, they are partially offset by 8 early summer birthdays "held back*" a grade in school. So, they kind of balance each other out in a way.

For my association, a balanced cutoff date would be August 3rd. I'd have eight players "playing up" and eight players "held back" a grade in school.

*By "held back" I mean a kid who has to play squirts even though they're still in third grade.

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:21 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:51 am
Mark,

I find Minnesota on an island within USA Hockey. Obviously they can do whatever they want. One question is why don't they let Pee Wees check (since they are registered as Bantams) and have Bantams permitted to throw the puck down shorthanded (since they are registered as 16U teams)?
A good question(s).
I brought up the checking thing and the answer, "most of our players are in the peewee age range and we 'don't want to be sued'"

I have not thought about the other one until now. I will ask this weekend.

Thanks, John.

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:22 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:51 am
Mark,

I find Minnesota on an island within USA Hockey. Obviously they can do whatever they want. One question is why don't they let Pee Wees check (since they are registered as Bantams) and have Bantams permitted to throw the puck down shorthanded (since they are registered as 16U teams)?
They (we, I guess) are trying tostay in line iwth school since high school hockey is important in MN.

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:26 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:59 am
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am
Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?
No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
Let me guess. A few parents who have kids with June birthdays and held them back from Kindergarten want them to be the oldest at the level and use the grade argument? I suppose the July and August Birthday parents made the same case when MN Hockey changed it to July 1st.

I'm assuming the majority of kids with June birthdays start Kindergarten at 5. (Maybe someone has the stats). If those kids want to continue to move up with their grade, they will be at the mercy of their Association's numbers and move-up policy. September 1st is the only logical date that makes any sense. Little League finally realized that and changed it. Any other date is arbitrary and made up to appease a small group.
MH has the numbers from the Dept of Education and it is a bit surprising (dont have them right in front of me).
But yes a group presented to MH a year ago and in our quick to act manner (we either act in a minte or two OR in a year and ahlf or so) we are voting (Likely to vote) this weekend.

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:28 pm

The Exiled One wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 pm
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am
Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?
No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
I can only speak for my association, but I have 22 late summer birthdays "playing up" with their classmates. However, they are partially offset by 8 early summer birthdays "held back*" a grade in school. So, they kind of balance each other out in a way.

For my association, a balanced cutoff date would be August 3rd. I'd have eight players "playing up" and eight players "held back" a grade in school.

*By "held back" I mean a kid who has to play squirts even though they're still in third grade.
In district 16 the majority would prefer Sept 1, about 25% woud like June and small #'s to keep it the same or calendar year.
I am undecided at this point on how I will vote (if we vote).

Goose21
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Goose21 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:49 pm

Keep the July 1 date. It is becoming more common for late summer birthdates (especially August) to start K the following year. In my experience this date allows more kids to play with their classmates.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

SpreadOut!
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:37 pm

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by SpreadOut! » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:12 pm

The lengths parents will go to attempt to give their kids what they fantasize is an advantage in MN youth hockey amazes me. My birthday is in July and I started Kindergarten at age 6 back in the September 1 cut off days—meaning that I was a first year squirt in 3rd grade, first year peewee in 5th grade, first year bantam in 7th grade and JV player in 9th grade. I survived. The “relative age effect” advantage these parents are seeking eventually goes away when kids go through puberty. All the research shows that the best athletes, the hardest workers and the kids with the most passion for the game—not the oldest—are the ones who will rise to the top of the pyramid in the end.

blueline_6
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by blueline_6 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:59 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:59 am
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:04 am
Just so I'm clear - MN hockey wants to go from a two month gap between hockey and school age cutoff, to a three month gap between hockey and school age cutoff? Or am I reading that wrong?
No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
Let me guess. A few parents who have kids with June birthdays and held them back from Kindergarten want them to be the oldest at the level and use the grade argument? I suppose the July and August Birthday parents made the same case when MN Hockey changed it to July 1st.

I'm assuming the majority of kids with June birthdays start Kindergarten at 5. (Maybe someone has the stats). If those kids want to continue to move up with their grade, they will be at the mercy of their Association's numbers and move-up policy. September 1st is the only logical date that makes any sense. Little League finally realized that and changed it. Any other date is arbitrary and made up to appease a small group.
This.

If the date is going to move, match the school grade date. It is the only logical date for a community based league that feeds into a high school league.

Jeffy95
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Jeffy95 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:46 pm

blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Jeffy95 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:59 am
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am

No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
Let me guess. A few parents who have kids with June birthdays and held them back from Kindergarten want them to be the oldest at the level and use the grade argument? I suppose the July and August Birthday parents made the same case when MN Hockey changed it to July 1st.

I'm assuming the majority of kids with June birthdays start Kindergarten at 5. (Maybe someone has the stats). If those kids want to continue to move up with their grade, they will be at the mercy of their Association's numbers and move-up policy. September 1st is the only logical date that makes any sense. Little League finally realized that and changed it. Any other date is arbitrary and made up to appease a small group.
This.

If the date is going to move, match the school grade date. It is the only logical date for a community based league that feeds into a high school league.
Yep.

"I chose to hold my kid back from Kindergarten a year so could you please change the rules to benefit him?

goldy313
Posts: 3210
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by goldy313 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:51 am

Keep it with the schools.

More and more high schools need bantam eligible kids to field teams....both JV and Varsity. In Minnesota the pinnacle of a hockey career is playing high school for the vast majority of bantam aged kids. We should support that goal.

blueline_6
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by blueline_6 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:17 am

Here's another question I would have: If MN Hockey is considering this in order to benefit the June born kids, what does MN Hockey have against the May born kids. Why would you want to put those kids at even more of a disadvantage than they currently have? Does MN Hockey like June kids more than they like May kids? Or when the parents of May born kids start to complain will MN Hockey vote to change this again?

Stop worrying about parents of the exception cases just because they talk the loudest/most.

Jeffy95
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Jeffy95 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am

blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Jeffy95 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:59 am
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am

No, you are reading it right.
MH is considering it, at a request of some members.
Let me guess. A few parents who have kids with June birthdays and held them back from Kindergarten want them to be the oldest at the level and use the grade argument? I suppose the July and August Birthday parents made the same case when MN Hockey changed it to July 1st.

I'm assuming the majority of kids with June birthdays start Kindergarten at 5. (Maybe someone has the stats). If those kids want to continue to move up with their grade, they will be at the mercy of their Association's numbers and move-up policy. September 1st is the only logical date that makes any sense. Little League finally realized that and changed it. Any other date is arbitrary and made up to appease a small group.
This.

If the date is going to move, match the school grade date. It is the only logical date for a community based league that feeds into a high school league.
I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.

Goose21
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Goose21 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Jeffy95 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:59 am


Let me guess. A few parents who have kids with June birthdays and held them back from Kindergarten want them to be the oldest at the level and use the grade argument? I suppose the July and August Birthday parents made the same case when MN Hockey changed it to July 1st.

I'm assuming the majority of kids with June birthdays start Kindergarten at 5. (Maybe someone has the stats). If those kids want to continue to move up with their grade, they will be at the mercy of their Association's numbers and move-up policy. September 1st is the only logical date that makes any sense. Little League finally realized that and changed it. Any other date is arbitrary and made up to appease a small group.
This.

If the date is going to move, match the school grade date. It is the only logical date for a community based league that feeds into a high school league.
I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.
So what date is that? School cut-offs don't work the same way as they do for sports. In Minnesota a kindergartner must be 5 before Sept 1. It does not say every child born before Sept 1 must attend kindergarten.

Look at the data before making a decision. If a majority of children born in August don't start that September, that should be factored.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

blueline_6
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by blueline_6 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:55 am

Goose21 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:59 pm


This.

If the date is going to move, match the school grade date. It is the only logical date for a community based league that feeds into a high school league.
I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.
So what date is that? School cut-offs don't work the same way as they do for sports. In Minnesota a kindergartner must be 5 before Sept 1. It does not say every child born before Sept 1 must attend kindergarten.

Look at the data before making a decision. If a majority of children born in August don't start that September, that should be factored.
So we're going to look at data of all kids in Minnesota and then apply it to only those kids that play hockey?

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:01 am

Just to clarify,
the vote, if there is one, would be to change the cut-off from July 1 to June 1.

Sept 1 and Jan 1 have been tossed around but the rules would need to be suspended to vote on one of those. That does not preclude them from being considered in April.

elliott70
Posts: 13039
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by elliott70 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:03 am

blueline_6 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:55 am
Goose21 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am


I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.
So what date is that? School cut-offs don't work the same way as they do for sports. In Minnesota a kindergartner must be 5 before Sept 1. It does not say every child born before Sept 1 must attend kindergarten.

Look at the data before making a decision. If a majority of children born in August don't start that September, that should be factored.
So we're going to look at data of all kids in Minnesota and then apply it to only those kids that play hockey?
We have been presented a lot of data but I do not remember how much of it just pertains to hockey players versus the general public.

Jeffy95
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Jeffy95 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:10 am

Goose21 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am
blueline_6 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:59 pm


This.

If the date is going to move, match the school grade date. It is the only logical date for a community based league that feeds into a high school league.
I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.
So what date is that? School cut-offs don't work the same way as they do for sports. In Minnesota a kindergartner must be 5 before Sept 1. It does not say every child born before Sept 1 must attend kindergarten.

Look at the data before making a decision. If a majority of children born in August don't start that September, that should be factored.
In 2012, (latest info I could find) only 12 percent of kids who were age 5 by Sept. 1st chose not to attend Kindergarten in Minnesota. May have gone up some since then but not even close to a majority. Percentage of June kids has to be even lower than that. In my experience over the years, we always had a lot more July/August birthdays who had to petition for a move-up to play with their grade than those who were held back and were playing with their grade. So we're inconveniencing more kids to try to benefit a few parents. The biggest problem is, the parents of the kids who are negatively affected by these made up, phony dates probably have no idea MN Hockey is even discussing it right now. So they'll most likely only hear from the few Dads who want the rules changed to benefit their kids. I can't believe MN Hockey is even wasting their time on this.

http://www.startribune.com/too-young-fo ... 169702596/

Goose21
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Goose21 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 am

blueline_6 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:55 am
Goose21 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am


I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.
So what date is that? School cut-offs don't work the same way as they do for sports. In Minnesota a kindergartner must be 5 before Sept 1. It does not say every child born before Sept 1 must attend kindergarten.

Look at the data before making a decision. If a majority of children born in August don't start that September, that should be factored.
So we're going to look at data of all kids in Minnesota and then apply it to only those kids that play hockey?
If there is going to be a decision, it should be an informed decision. Whatever the goals are, take the available information and make the best decision to meet those goals.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

Goose21
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by Goose21 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:31 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:10 am
Goose21 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:52 am


I'm not sure how anybody could argue against that. This is one of the easy ones Elliott. Don't let them screw it up.
So what date is that? School cut-offs don't work the same way as they do for sports. In Minnesota a kindergartner must be 5 before Sept 1. It does not say every child born before Sept 1 must attend kindergarten.

Look at the data before making a decision. If a majority of children born in August don't start that September, that should be factored.
In 2012, (latest info I could find) only 12 percent of kids who were age 5 by Sept. 1st chose not to attend Kindergarten in Minnesota. May have gone up some since then but not even close to a majority. Percentage of June kids has to be even lower than that. In my experience over the years, we always had a lot more July/August birthdays who had to petition for a move-up to play with their grade than those who were held back and were playing with their grade. So we're inconveniencing more kids to try to benefit a few parents. The biggest problem is, the parents of the kids who are negatively affected by these made up, phony dates probably have no idea MN Hockey is even discussing it right now. So they'll most likely only hear from the few Dads who want the rules changed to benefit their kids. I can't believe MN Hockey is even wasting their time on this.

http://www.startribune.com/too-young-fo ... 169702596/
I have a different experience with move-ups, but that is why it should be data based. Whatever date benefits the most kids.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

The Exiled One
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Minnesota Hockey cut-off dates

Post by The Exiled One » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:34 am

elliott70 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:01 am
Just to clarify,
the vote, if there is one, would be to change the cut-off from July 1 to June 1.
I encourage you to vote nay on this proposal.

On the prospect of moving the cut-off date to September 1st, I also encourage you to vote nay as I'm in favor of an August 1st cutoff, but September vs. July doesn't really make much difference to me.

Post Reply