16 Subsection Model

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victor maitland
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16 Subsection Model

Post by victor maitland » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:02 pm

Because 6A football made some yuge changes a couple of years ago. why not kick around a different model. I get it football had to something to help CDH and EP out because they were travelling out of state to get games.

1. 16 Sections - 4 to 6 teams in each. AA 4 in most, A 6 in most.

2. After the subsection is done, reseed the 16 subsection champions and there are 8 super section games played on neutral ice sites the Saturday before State at places like Amsoil, Mariucci, NHC, Sanford, and Verizon.

3. Winners advance to state and reseed again if necessary.

This year the super section games might have looked like this. I reseeded based on QRF and place them at sites based on geography.

Site City Day Time Class Seed Home Seed Away
Amsoil Arena Duluth Saturday 12:00 PM A 3 Mahtomedi 14 Chisago Lakes
Mariucci Arena Minneapolis Saturday 12:00 PM A 6 Alexandria 11 Rochester Lourdes
National Hockey Center St. Cloud Saturday 12:00 PM A 8 North Branch 9 Delano
Amsoil Arena Duluth Saturday 2:30 PM A 4 Totino-Grace 13 Greenway
Mariucci Arena Minneapolis Saturday 2:30 PM A 1 Hermantown 16 Hutchinson
National Hockey Center St. Cloud Saturday 2:30 PM A 7 Orono 10 Minnesota River
Amsoil Arena Duluth Saturday 5:00 PM AA 1 Edina 16 Lakeville North
Mariucci Arena Minneapolis Saturday 5:00 PM AA 3 Andover 14 Holy Family
National Hockey Center St. Cloud Saturday 5:00 PM AA 4 Blaine 13 Brainerd
Sanford Center Bemidji Saturday 5:00 PM A 5 East Grand Forks 12 Warroad
Verizon Center Mankato Saturday 5:00 PM A 2 St. Cloud Cathedral 15 New Ulm
Amsoil Arena Duluth Saturday 7:30 PM AA 7 Maple Grove 10 Benilde-St. Margaret's
Mariucci Arena Minneapolis Saturday 7:30 PM AA 8 Eden Prairie 9 Duluth East
National Hockey Center St. Cloud Saturday 7:30 PM AA 6 White Bear Lake 11 Eagan
Sanford Center Bemidji Saturday 7:30 PM AA 5 Moorhead 12 Hill-Murray
Verizon Center Mankato Saturday 7:30 PM AA 2 St. Thomas Academy 15 Lakeville South

Subsection/AA HS Progrum (I haven't divided up the programs, sorry rubes.)
1 Dodge Center
1 Owatonna
1 Rochester Century
1 Rochester John Marshall
1 Rochester Mayo
2 Farmington
2 Lakeville North
2 Lakeville South
2 New Prague
3 Apple Valley
3 Burnsville
3 Eagan
3 Eastview
3 Rosemount
4 East Ridge
4 Hastings
4 Hill-Murray
4 Park of Cottage Grove
4 Woodbury
5 Forest Lake
5 North St. Paul
5 Stillwater
5 Tartan
5 White Bear Lake
6 Blaine
6 Centennial
6 Mounds View
6 Irondale
6 Spring Lake Park
7 Champlin Park
7 Coon Rapids
7 Maple Grove
7 Osseo
8 Armstrong-Cooper
8 Totino-Grace
8 Wayzata
8 Benilde-St. Margaret's
9 Blake
9 Hopkins
9 Minnetonka
9 St. Louis Park
10 Cretin-Derham Hall
10 Holy Angels
10 Roseville
10 St. Thomas Academy
11 Edina
11 Jefferson
11 Shakopee
11 Prior Lake
12 Eden Prairie
12 Holy Family
12 Chaska
12 Chanhassen
13 Buffalo
13 Elk River
13 St. Cloud
13 STMA
14 Andover
14 Anoka
14 Cambridge-Isanti
14 St. Francis
15 Cloquet-Esko-Carlton
15 Duluth East
15 Duluth Marshall
15 Grand Rapids
16 Bemidji
16 Brainerd
16 Moorhead
16 Roseau

I thought this might be worth talking about. Trash it if you must but that Saturday would be a blast for the rubes. ;-)

Please discuss.

50in15
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by 50in15 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:43 pm

I like the idea of getting down to 16 teams and then "re-shuffling". Don't really care how it is done but it would be pretty simple and add to the tourney. There have been years (not this year) but in others where #1 is playing a top 5 team in sections and then when they get to state, they destroy a much lesser team. The bigger stage wants to see the better game.

And a super Saturday would be awesome.

Schotzy
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by Schotzy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:31 pm

It almost makes too much sense.

gopherpuck516
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by gopherpuck516 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:08 pm

Count me as on board with this idea. Whether anything like this would ever happen remains to be seen, but it’d be a really fun format.

That guy for that thing
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Location: Hinckley

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by That guy for that thing » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:42 pm

I really like this idea. Would the teams get behind somewhat of an NFL style of scheduling too, like you have to play all teams in your section in a home and home, then you get a partner section that you split 2 at home, and 2 away. Then open for the conference and free scheduling? I think the 2 home and 2 away for the partner section would be better than half home and half away because some sections have 5 teams, and the partner section would be on a rotation schedule. That is 10-12 games of the season right there. It forces the teams to have parity inside of sections to accurately determine section seedings, then maybe your partner section would go in 2-year stints so you have deals with the outstate sections where one year you go up, then one year they come down.

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:21 pm

Looks like a great setup. Close enough to regular sections to not shake things up too much but still probably a better way to do it to help avoid top 5 teams not making state.

However, you said you reseeded based on QRF for the hypothetical Supersection games, but it looks like you just seeded the top 16 ranked from QRF instead of using your proposed subsections? Like you have both Lakevilles in super section games even though they are in the same subsection, same with EP and Holy Family. Would be cool to see what those super sections actually could look like if following your subsections.

Finally, at the risk of starting a debate about not-even-real subsections, I would probably restructure a couple of the ones you made just slightly. Otherwise, love the concept!

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:36 pm

It easy to think of this sort of thing in terms of hockey. But the high school league runs many sports. If hockey wants their own deal, basketball probably will too, and girls may be different than boys. So there's that.

Now guys here like to get up in arms about seeding the stat tourney. First, it was the conspiracy that it was really secretly seeded 1- 8, even though officially it was seeded 1 to 4 or 5. That conspiracy was quickly forgotten this year, but there was still loads of carping.

I can't imagine the whining we'd hear about re-seeding after 16 sub-sections get played. Who would do that? The coaches? No one liked the way they seeded this year's tourney.

And then another round of seeding for the quarter finals? Ugh. How about reseeding for the semis, too? Like the NHL does?

Oy vey!

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:49 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:36 pm
It easy to think of this sort of thing in terms of hockey. But the high school league runs many sports. If hockey wants their own deal, basketball probably will too, and girls may be different than boys. So there's that.

Now guys here like to get up in arms about seeding the stat tourney. First, it was the conspiracy that it was really secretly seeded 1- 8, even though officially it was seeded 1 to 4 or 5. That conspiracy was quickly forgotten this year, but there was still loads of carping.

I can't imagine the whining we'd hear about re-seeding after 16 sub-sections get played. Who would do that? The coaches? No one liked the way they seeded this year's tourney.

And then another round of seeding for the quarter finals? Ugh. How about reseeding for the semis, too? Like the NHL does?

Oy vey!
Football has their own system, and it’s even different between 6A and 5A. Baseball has double elimination in sections. Not that crazy to think that hockey could still use sections but restructure them a bit.

As for the seeding, you bring up a good point that probably just the one seeding of 1-16 is all that’s needed. Winner of 1/16 could play the winner of 8/9 for first round of state, 2/15 winner vs 7/10, etc, etc. The seeding for 1-16 would be HEATED though. Maybe you just seed 1-10 and have the other 6 “random.” :wink:

thestickler07
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by thestickler07 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:37 am

I'd really love a "Sweet Sixteen" format for the state tournament.

Wouldn't mind a David and Goliath set up for the round of 16 games either - match the teams up and then the lower enrollment gets to pick the ice sheet to play on (not their home rink). Imagine the intrigue of the Hornets going up to Roseau to play the Rams, Minnetonka and DE facing off at Amsoil, or Eden Prairie taking the journey up 94 to Moorhead.

Then after the Sweet Sixteen games you can reseed for the X.

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:22 am

Good point on other sports ThatMNHockeyGuy62.

If 16 beats 1, 16 should face the highest remaining seed.

StanleyCup55
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by StanleyCup55 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:13 pm

All due respect Victor but I’m not a fan of this particular system but do think they should just rank the Class AA and A teams and play it like the NCAA basketball tourney of 64 (or 72 with play-in games).

That way there’s no state rankings and would eliminate a bunch of good teams playing in one section. Not a huge fan of QRF but it would be easy to just go ahead and rank teams with that (eliminating any bias) for the playoffs and just play it out. Once you get to 8 teams in A&AA, you go to the X for state. No sections, no reseeding. Just play out 64 team tourney.

bodyup88
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by bodyup88 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:03 pm

I agree with you, StanleyCup55. Particularly for AA, the sections have long ago outlived their usefulness. The sections were borne out of basketball districts in the 1940's and 1950's when every little town had a basketball team and they were needed then to manage the numbers. That is clearly not the case here. The issue is how to objectively rank the teams, whether it's QRF or some other formula. The girls use KRACH which a spinoff of the college rankings .
Class A has a little more merit to using sections, for example you probably wouldn't want to send Luverne to play Warroad or North Shore.

LetMeEatCake
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Location: Edina, MN

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by LetMeEatCake » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm

Overall, it’s a nice model that needs some tweaking ‘g biggest issue is making all but on Metro team go up to Duluth to play. I do not get why that should be the case. Just move it to Mariucci.
I can have my cake and eat it too.

Section 8 guy
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by Section 8 guy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 pm

The question that's always begging to be asked in these kind of discussions........ What problem are we actually trying to solve here?

That guy for that thing
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Location: Hinckley

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by That guy for that thing » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:04 am

LetMeEatCake wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm
Overall, it’s a nice model that needs some tweaking ‘g biggest issue is making all but on Metro team go up to Duluth to play. I do not get why that should be the case. Just move it to Mariucci.
Depends on who is making the decisions. Mariucci is Olympic sized ice and Amsoil in professional sized. Different sheet sizes allow for different styles of gameplay. Olympic is more open flow and professional allows for closer contact and tighter slot play.

StanleyCup55
Posts: 101
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by StanleyCup55 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:16 am

LetMeEatCake wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm
Overall, it’s a nice model that needs some tweaking ‘g biggest issue is making all but on Metro team go up to Duluth to play. I do not get why that should be the case. Just move it to Mariucci.
AmsOil isn’t Duluth East’s home rink. Section 7AA is a northern section and it’s championship game has always been played in Duluth. It’s not that hard, at all, to move Elk River and Andover into 5AA where they belong. Not sure why the league insists these two teams play in 7AA.

Sections just need to go.

bardown27
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:20 am

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by bardown27 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:16 am

StanleyCup55 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:16 am
LetMeEatCake wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm
Overall, it’s a nice model that needs some tweaking ‘g biggest issue is making all but on Metro team go up to Duluth to play. I do not get why that should be the case. Just move it to Mariucci.
AmsOil isn’t Duluth East’s home rink. Section 7AA is a northern section and it’s championship game has always been played in Duluth. It’s not that hard, at all, to move Elk River and Andover into 5AA where they belong. Not sure why the league insists these two teams play in 7AA.

Sections just need to go.
So you move Andover and Elk River to 5AA, that gives 5AA 10 teams and 7AA 7 teams. 10 teams in 5AA wouldn't be a bad thing, as many A sections make that work bracket wise. But that means in 7AA whoever gets the 1 seed has an automatic bye into the semi finals during sections.

Usthockey13
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by Usthockey13 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:52 am

They can move brainerd over to 7AA to make it 8. Also just a few years ago in Edina’s section they have uneven number and would only have to play 2 games to get to state.

StanleyCup55
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:36 am

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by StanleyCup55 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:30 am

bardown27 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:16 am
StanleyCup55 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:16 am
LetMeEatCake wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm
Overall, it’s a nice model that needs some tweaking ‘g biggest issue is making all but on Metro team go up to Duluth to play. I do not get why that should be the case. Just move it to Mariucci.
AmsOil isn’t Duluth East’s home rink. Section 7AA is a northern section and it’s championship game has always been played in Duluth. It’s not that hard, at all, to move Elk River and Andover into 5AA where they belong. Not sure why the league insists these two teams play in 7AA.

Sections just need to go.
So you move Andover and Elk River to 5AA, that gives 5AA 10 teams and 7AA 7 teams. 10 teams in 5AA wouldn't be a bad thing, as many A sections make that work bracket wise. But that means in 7AA whoever gets the 1 seed has an automatic bye into the semi finals during sections.
Centennial to 4AA

I also think Cathedral should go up and be in 8AA. Alexandria should too especially if Brainerd goes to 7AA. Obviously Hairmantown should be in AA.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by elliott70 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:41 am

We need representation by geographic area.

We need to take the largest6 to 8 or 9 schools from each of 8 geographic areas and call them AA.
Opt ups are allowed.

The balance are single A.

If at some point someone is concerned about the real small schools than at some point a class B tourney could be held at a different site on a different date.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by elliott70 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:14 pm

Section 8AA would include the larger school on the west side of the state north of I94

current schools
Roseau
Bemidji
Moorhead
St Cloud
Brainerd - could go to 7AA

others
Alex 1120
Sartell 1129
Sauk Rapids 1183
Detroit Lakes 737
Fergus Falls 596
St Cloud Cathedral 438
St Cloud (Tech 1198 & Apollo 1097) could be two schools - one would hope at some time they would have more kids playing hockey.


Section 7AA include the east side of the state north of Highway 95
current schools
Duluth East
Duluth Marshall
CEC
Grand Rapids

Brainerd
Denfeld 666
Princeton 894
North Branch 894
Hermantown 690
Hibbing 569
Virginia - Eveleth(combined) 640

Result:
8 AA all with over 1000 in school except Roseau as an opt up
Roseau
Bemidji
Moorhead
St Cloud
Brainerd
Alex
Sartell
Sauk Rapids


7AA all under 1000 except DEast ad CEC
Duluth East
Duluth Marshall
CEC
Grand Rapids
Denfeld
Princeton
North Branch
Hermantown

BSUBeaver
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by BSUBeaver » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 pm

elliot-

I don't see Tech and Apollo breaking apart any time soon. Being the two public schools in St. Cloud, they get a majority of the minorities, which with what we have seen in other schools around that state, just don't play hockey. The gifted players in the St. Cloud youth system most likely end up at Cathedral (a whole different debate).

I was a little surprised to see Sauk Rapids' and Sartell's enrollment numbers larger than Alexandria, although not by much. The next time class assignment comes up, it will be interesting to see if any of them get bumped up.

FWIW, I do like the Section 8AA you have proposed. Alexandria already plays all those school but Roseau (played Moorhead up until the 2017-18 season). It is too bad their are not more AA teams further north so that Moorhead, Roseau and Bemidji weren't outliers in your proposed section (or in the current Section 8). There could be a nice central Minnesota section with St. Cloud, Brainerd, Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids and throw in Cathedral. Two more teams (Monticello, Buffalo??) would make a nice 8 teams.

bodyup88
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by bodyup88 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:38 pm

Elliott, you say we "need representation by geographic region". We don't really have that now. The plan you recommend arbitrarily adds 7 teams from Class A to AA while displacing 8 teams from sections 7AA and 8AA. Where are those 8 teams going to go? Do you think all 7 of those current Class A teams really want to play AA?
It's time to scrap the sections and go to seeding of the teams. Maybe some years the north is under-represented. Perhaps other years Duluth East, Moorhead and Grand Rapids all make it to the state tournament. I believe every team needs incentive to work hard and not be placed in artificial sections.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by elliott70 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:47 pm

bodyup88 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:38 pm
Elliott, you say we "need representation by geographic region". We don't really have that now. The plan you recommend arbitrarily adds 7 teams from Class A to AA while displacing 8 teams from sections 7AA and 8AA. Where are those 8 teams going to go? Do you think all 7 of those current Class A teams really want to play AA?
It's time to scrap the sections and go to seeding of the teams. Maybe some years the north is under-represented. Perhaps other years Duluth East, Moorhead and Grand Rapids all make it to the state tournament. I believe every team needs incentive to work hard and not be placed in artificial sections.
I had a nice rebuttal but it disappeared.

zooomx
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Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by zooomx » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm

BSUBeaver wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 pm
elliot-

I don't see Tech and Apollo breaking apart any time soon. Being the two public schools in St. Cloud, they get a majority of the minorities, which with what we have seen in other schools around that state, just don't play hockey. The gifted players in the St. Cloud youth system most likely end up at Cathedral (a whole different debate).

I was a little surprised to see Sauk Rapids' and Sartell's enrollment numbers larger than Alexandria, although not by much. The next time class assignment comes up, it will be interesting to see if any of them get bumped up.

FWIW, I do like the Section 8AA you have proposed. Alexandria already plays all those school but Roseau (played Moorhead up until the 2017-18 season). It is too bad their are not more AA teams further north so that Moorhead, Roseau and Bemidji weren't outliers in your proposed section (or in the current Section 8). There could be a nice central Minnesota section with St. Cloud, Brainerd, Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids and throw in Cathedral. Two more teams (Monticello, Buffalo??) would make a nice 8 teams.
RE: St. Cloud. Tech's future is a bit unclear, as you never know what will happen once they open a shiny new school. But yes, Apollo will probably never have their own team again. The issue is not just Cathedral either. I know many families over the years have moved out of St. Cloud proper and into Sartell. Also, Sauk Rapids is know where near being able to compete in AA and I have not seen anything at the youth level to tell me otherwise.

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