16 Subsection Model

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zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by zooomx » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 pm
The question that's always begging to be asked in these kind of discussions........ What problem are we actually trying to solve here?
This...

jdh
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:10 am

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by jdh » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:29 pm

BSUBeaver wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 pm
elliot-

I don't see Tech and Apollo breaking apart any time soon. Being the two public schools in St. Cloud, they get a majority of the minorities, which with what we have seen in other schools around that state, just don't play hockey. The gifted players in the St. Cloud youth system most likely end up at Cathedral (a whole different debate).

I was a little surprised to see Sauk Rapids' and Sartell's enrollment numbers larger than Alexandria, although not by much. The next time class assignment comes up, it will be interesting to see if any of them get bumped up.

FWIW, I do like the Section 8AA you have proposed. Alexandria already plays all those school but Roseau (played Moorhead up until the 2017-18 season). It is too bad their are not more AA teams further north so that Moorhead, Roseau and Bemidji weren't outliers in your proposed section (or in the current Section 8). There could be a nice central Minnesota section with St. Cloud, Brainerd, Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids and throw in Cathedral. Two more teams (Monticello, Buffalo??) would make a nice 8 teams.
Are you omitting STMA?

Section 8 guy
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:32 am

bodyup88 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:38 pm
Elliott, you say we "need representation by geographic region. We don't really have that now.
How so?

Section 8 guy
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:35 am

zooomx wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 pm
The question that's always begging to be asked in these kind of discussions........ What problem are we actually trying to solve here?
This...
The only thing I've seen so far is BodyUp saying the current sections need to go with no real explanation as to why.

BSUBeaver
Posts: 945
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by BSUBeaver » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:49 am

jdh wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:29 pm
BSUBeaver wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 pm
elliot-

I don't see Tech and Apollo breaking apart any time soon. Being the two public schools in St. Cloud, they get a majority of the minorities, which with what we have seen in other schools around that state, just don't play hockey. The gifted players in the St. Cloud youth system most likely end up at Cathedral (a whole different debate).

I was a little surprised to see Sauk Rapids' and Sartell's enrollment numbers larger than Alexandria, although not by much. The next time class assignment comes up, it will be interesting to see if any of them get bumped up.

FWIW, I do like the Section 8AA you have proposed. Alexandria already plays all those school but Roseau (played Moorhead up until the 2017-18 season). It is too bad their are not more AA teams further north so that Moorhead, Roseau and Bemidji weren't outliers in your proposed section (or in the current Section 8). There could be a nice central Minnesota section with St. Cloud, Brainerd, Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids and throw in Cathedral. Two more teams (Monticello, Buffalo??) would make a nice 8 teams.
Are you omitting STMA?
Sorry, they slipped my mind as I was looking at possibilities on my State Road Map on my wall at work. STMA didn't show up on the "greater Minnesota" map as they are on the "metro map" on the back side. I suppose they could be a good fit as well.

So, if we took Sauk Rapids off, due to what zoomx said earlier about the competitiveness and youth program, we would have:

Alexandria
Brainerd
Cathedral
St. Cloud
Sartell
Monticello
Buffalo
St. Michael-Albertville

Everyone would be within two hours of each other and SCSU could possibly serve as the Section Championship home (even though I kind of despise Olympic Ice at the High Schoool level).

elliott70
Posts: 15425
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:15 am

zooomx wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm
BSUBeaver wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 pm
elliot-

I don't see Tech and Apollo breaking apart any time soon. Being the two public schools in St. Cloud, they get a majority of the minorities, which with what we have seen in other schools around that state, just don't play hockey. The gifted players in the St. Cloud youth system most likely end up at Cathedral (a whole different debate).

I was a little surprised to see Sauk Rapids' and Sartell's enrollment numbers larger than Alexandria, although not by much. The next time class assignment comes up, it will be interesting to see if any of them get bumped up.

FWIW, I do like the Section 8AA you have proposed. Alexandria already plays all those school but Roseau (played Moorhead up until the 2017-18 season). It is too bad their are not more AA teams further north so that Moorhead, Roseau and Bemidji weren't outliers in your proposed section (or in the current Section 8). There could be a nice central Minnesota section with St. Cloud, Brainerd, Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids and throw in Cathedral. Two more teams (Monticello, Buffalo??) would make a nice 8 teams.
RE: St. Cloud. Tech's future is a bit unclear, as you never know what will happen once they open a shiny new school. But yes, Apollo will probably never have their own team again. The issue is not just Cathedral either. I know many families over the years have moved out of St. Cloud proper and into Sartell. Also, Sauk Rapids is know where near being able to compete in AA and I have not seen anything at the youth level to tell me otherwise.

Lots of teams cannot compete at the AA level.
Lots of teams cannot compete at the A level.
MSHSL does not care about competing but about your size.
If we were to do this by competition level a formula based on youth participation numbers would be the key to proper classification.

elliott70
Posts: 15425
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 am

At AA maybe there should only be one north region.

Duluth East
Duluth Marshall
CEC
Grand Rapids
Brainerd
Moorhead
Bemidji
Roseau

Section finals can rotate between Sanford Center and Amsoil.

HSPuckFan96
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by HSPuckFan96 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:01 am

STMA is joining the Lake next year, no reason they couldn't be included in a city section if it helped 8AA be a more "northern" section.

No matter what the MSHSL does, it won't be right for everyone.

Sartell (and I would guess Sauk Rapids too) is growing like crazy! The new school they are building looks amazing, that will attract more in the area too.

StanleyCup55
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:36 am

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by StanleyCup55 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:29 am

zooomx wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 pm
The question that's always begging to be asked in these kind of discussions........ What problem are we actually trying to solve here?
This...
There aren’t many huge problems but a few things that I think need to happen in order to perfect it. I think there are some obvious but minor flaws in the A-AA system that could be easily fixed and it would make for better competition and more fair play. Only a few minor changes need to be made to perfect the A/AA system.

Centennial to 4AA
ER, Rogers and Andover to 5AA
Cathedral and Alexandria to 8AA
Hermantown to 7AA
Buffalo to 6AA
Jefferson to 2AA
Cretin to 3AA

North St. Paul and Osseo drop down to A

This gives you no sections under 8 teams and none over 9 teams. Even if Osseo and North don’t opt down those two sections would then have 10 teams. To me this all just makes sense and is a format that I think would last for a long time and you wouldn’t need to make too many adjustments every couple of years.

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by zooomx » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:49 am

StanleyCup55 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:29 am
zooomx wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 pm
The question that's always begging to be asked in these kind of discussions........ What problem are we actually trying to solve here?
This...
There aren’t many huge problems but a few things that I think need to happen in order to perfect it. I think there are some obvious but minor flaws in the A-AA system that could be easily fixed and it would make for better competition and more fair play. Only a few minor changes need to be made to perfect the A/AA system.

Centennial to 4AA
ER, Rogers and Andover to 5AA
Cathedral and Alexandria to 8AA
Hermantown to 7AA
Buffalo to 6AA
Jefferson to 2AA
Cretin to 3AA

North St. Paul and Osseo drop down to A

This gives you no sections under 8 teams and none over 9 teams. Even if Osseo and North don’t opt down those two sections would then have 10 teams. To me this all just makes sense and is a format that I think would last for a long time and you wouldn’t need to make too many adjustments every couple of years.
I think the main gripe on the current system is those who feel that "it's not fair" to be a good team in a strong section with other good teams. If you have 3 top 8 teams in one section, then only one of those teams goes to state. I personally prefer the geographic intent of our current system and have argued that if you lose out in sections, you have already proven (probably multiple times) that you cannot beat that top team in your section. I like that underdogs emerge at state and sometimes knock off the top teams. I despise the idea of just seeding the top 8 or 16 teams into the state tournament.

Also, I feel 64 teams in AA is plenty and creates 8 sections of 8. I think the one "fix" to make the whole system work better is for MSHSL to grow some stones and institute some triggers to move really good A teams up, which would shift some very weak AA teams down. However, I would be bummed out if the A tournament ended up being really watered down. Their are usually 6-8 really good teams at the A level and a handful of others who have a shot for an upset. Not sure if changing that dynamic helps our high school product.

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by zooomx » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:05 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:15 am
zooomx wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:55 pm
BSUBeaver wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 pm
elliot-

I don't see Tech and Apollo breaking apart any time soon. Being the two public schools in St. Cloud, they get a majority of the minorities, which with what we have seen in other schools around that state, just don't play hockey. The gifted players in the St. Cloud youth system most likely end up at Cathedral (a whole different debate).

I was a little surprised to see Sauk Rapids' and Sartell's enrollment numbers larger than Alexandria, although not by much. The next time class assignment comes up, it will be interesting to see if any of them get bumped up.

FWIW, I do like the Section 8AA you have proposed. Alexandria already plays all those school but Roseau (played Moorhead up until the 2017-18 season). It is too bad their are not more AA teams further north so that Moorhead, Roseau and Bemidji weren't outliers in your proposed section (or in the current Section 8). There could be a nice central Minnesota section with St. Cloud, Brainerd, Alex, Sartell, Sauk Rapids and throw in Cathedral. Two more teams (Monticello, Buffalo??) would make a nice 8 teams.
RE: St. Cloud. Tech's future is a bit unclear, as you never know what will happen once they open a shiny new school. But yes, Apollo will probably never have their own team again. The issue is not just Cathedral either. I know many families over the years have moved out of St. Cloud proper and into Sartell. Also, Sauk Rapids is know where near being able to compete in AA and I have not seen anything at the youth level to tell me otherwise.

Lots of teams cannot compete at the AA level.
Lots of teams cannot compete at the A level.
MSHSL does not care about competing but about your size.
If we were to do this by competition level a formula based on youth participation numbers would be the key to proper classification.
I believe MSHSL already makes some adjustments when teams petition up or down. For example, for years, River Lakes Co-op was classified as AA due to combined enrollment and got destroyed at that level. They were moved down to A a couple of years ago and are in the middle of the pack in section 6A. It is where they belong (for now). As they build their program and get the 2nd and 3rd generation of hockey families playing, they will get stronger. Similar to the case of Alexandria. Had marginal success in their first 20 years, but with many players moving back to the area and now coaching, the numbers and quality has improved drastically.

elliott70
Posts: 15425
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: 16 Subsection Model

Post by elliott70 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:27 pm

But the adjustment is not about quality but quantity.
River Lakes like some other co-ops are given the benefit of the doubt when the co-op is for a small number of kids - 1 or 2 coming from the other school(s).

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