Pridictability of Class AA - state

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goldy313
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by goldy313 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:20 am

Stang5280 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:04 am

goldy313 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:18 pm
Heck even in the NCAA wrestling will far outdraw hockey in terms of ratings and attendance.... how many nights are wrestling on ESPN vs hockey?
Wrestling: 3, Hockey 6. Hockey for the win! :wink: Both are still relatively small potatoes, to be sure.
I guess I do not get this, wrestling has been or will be on ESPN in prime time for 9 or more hours. Hockey will get 1 game, maybe...
A UConn women’s bb game will move hockey. I am not counting ESPN U here. I am not advocating wrestling to be sure but next year the NCAA national championship will be at US Bank stadium.... their semi final session may draw 40,000-50,000.

Jeffy95
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Jeffy95 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:22 am

pekyman wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:52 pm
The current structure of the MSHSL does not work.Having a structure where a team falls within the guidelines to compete at the designated level only to be attacked and disparaged because they are too good for that level is ridiculous.
In Hermantown's case, they aren't "attacked" for being good. It's because most of their top players are transfers/open-enrollees. Look at all the future D1 players that have transferred/open enrolled to Hermantown. Do you think those kids make a difference in Class A against small town programs?

Just in the last five years, future D1 players that have transferred/open enrolled to Hermantown:

Wyatt Aamodt
Dylan Samberg
Eric Gotz
Darian Gotz
Tyler Watkins
Joey Pierce

And that doesn't even touch on all of the great players that transfer in there that don't make D1. How many other "Class A" programs have that going for them?

goldy313
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by goldy313 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:51 am

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:02 am
goldy313 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:18 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:51 am


Do you watch it? I'm curious because it has SO MANY DIVISIONS, which makes sense because every community has football and it is a massive state. No matter where you live a school nearby is in the state final at some level. A great spectacle for sure, but it isn't anything like the Minnesota HS tournament.

Colby will be remembered for 50 years as the kid that buried the OT winner. Spehar will never be forgotten. Boucha. Which guy on which team in which division in Texas is the one that history remembers?

It is a different animal entirely. Give me the state tourney from the X with tv coverage across most or all of Minnesota.
I couldn’t give you Colby’s name before you mentioned it
now and I was there. Boucha is remembered because he was hurt, same as Joe Thiesman..... great player or not, the injury is their defining moment.

Hockey is a niche sport. Football is not. Attend both as I have, Minnesota hockey is not what it was. Some, it is a niche sport, some is it is deemed an elitist sport, some is the way the Wild run their arena built with public tax dollars. At any rate hockey at the AA level does not engage the community in general, rather it engages the hockey community, which is fairly small on relation to the community in general.

The NHL can barely make network television while college football is prevalent on all networks and the NFL is the ratings king. There is no way outside Minnesota or the rabid hockey community anyone thinks the Minnesota high school hockey tournament is the premier high school event anymore. Heck even in the NCAA wrestling will far outdraw hockey in terms of ratings and attendance.... how many nights are wrestling on ESPN vs hockey?
What’s your point in this post? Comparing high school hockey to NCAA wrestling? That’s cool. NHL to NFL? What does that have to do with anything? Maybe I should say that football is a niche sport on the world stage. Nobody outside the US cares about football and therefore it is not a big deal. We should all watch soccer. That is the sport of the world. By the way how many people are at those wrestling matches you talked about? And how many people outside the state of Texas care about Texas high school football? None. I couldn’t name a single high school football team in Texas. And I am a football fan actually.......point is the MN state hockey tournament is special because the people of MINNESOTA are passionate and care about it. Not because other people care about it.
The wrestling matches are sold out in Pittsburgh. They will draw 40K plus next year in Minneapolis. Minnesota drew about 1,000 for a Big Ten tournament game. If you can’t name a single high school in Texas that is ok, I am more than sure most people in Texas can’t name a single school in Minnesota. Texas is what, the 3rd largest state in terms of population? Perspective. Friday Night Lights should at least give you Odessa Permian.

My hunch is people like Drew Brees, Adrian Peterson, Von Miller, Nick Foles, etc. etc are far more well known nationally than any Minnesota born hockey player ever will be. Ever! The best ever....Eric Dickerson, Mike Singletary, Tom Landry, Dick, Layne, Earl Campbell, Emittt Thomas, John Randle, Michael Strahan, Forrest Gregg, YA Title, etc plus about 100 other household names came from Texas high school football.

Your point that only people in Minnesota care about the high school hockey tournament isn’t even correct, only hockey fans in Minnesota care about it. Most could care less, now. Most schools don’t even play hockey. Meaning much of the population has no direct correlation with hockey. The biggest city has 1 hockey team, the 3rd biggest is outdrawn by anyone. 5,000 showed up for a basketball game. The biggest hockey crowd didn’t hit 1,000.

I am a high school hockey guy, I have been on this “bored” since it started. We are failing to attract new people. We are, at our current rate, doomed to fail. I am a season ticket holder, my section is less and less full every year. I do not even go to every session anymore.
Last edited by goldy313 on Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stang5280
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Stang5280 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:01 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:20 am
Stang5280 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:04 am

goldy313 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:18 pm
Heck even in the NCAA wrestling will far outdraw hockey in terms of ratings and attendance.... how many nights are wrestling on ESPN vs hockey?
Wrestling: 3, Hockey 6. Hockey for the win! :wink: Both are still relatively small potatoes, to be sure.
I guess I do not get this, wrestling has been or will be on ESPN in prime time for 9 or more hours. Hockey will get 1 game, maybe...
A UConn women’s bb game will move hockey. I am not counting ESPN U here. I am not advocating wrestling to be sure but next year the NCAA national championship will be at US Bank stadium.... their semi final session may draw 40,000-50,000.
You’re probably correct if just limiting to only the main ESPN channel. Wrestling has two evenings this year, hockey maybe one. I was referring to the overall family of networks. I have no idea what the ratings are, but am just happy to be able to watch the games, and just turn down the sound, particularly if Melrose is involved.

goldy313
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by goldy313 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:08 am

I am the same way with LaPanta...

I will watch the Wild on NBCSN but can’t on Fox.

I am a hockey guy, we are killing ourselves with travel and cost. Renting a gym is cheap, renting ice is not. I am a parent of 4 boys, all started out playing hockey, the last two ended up on their high school wrestling team.....why? Because that is what their friends did and the hockey coach wanted them to play only hockey, not football, baseball, track, or Legion ball. That drives out the best athletes.

northwoods oldtimer
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:52 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:08 am
I am the same way with LaPanta...

I will watch the Wild on NBCSN but can’t on Fox.

I am a hockey guy, we are killing ourselves with travel and cost. Renting a gym is cheap, renting ice is not. I am a parent of 4 boys, all started out playing hockey, the last two ended up on their high school wrestling team.....why? Because that is what their friends did and the hockey coach wanted them to play only hockey, not football, baseball, track, or Legion ball. That drives out the best athletes.
Exactly, big part (+ cost) of what is killing the number of good athletes playing the sport. Even Canada numbers are starting to dip due to cost.

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:11 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:51 am
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:02 am
goldy313 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:18 pm


I couldn’t give you Colby’s name before you mentioned it
now and I was there. Boucha is remembered because he was hurt, same as Joe Thiesman..... great player or not, the injury is their defining moment.

Hockey is a niche sport. Football is not. Attend both as I have, Minnesota hockey is not what it was. Some, it is a niche sport, some is it is deemed an elitist sport, some is the way the Wild run their arena built with public tax dollars. At any rate hockey at the AA level does not engage the community in general, rather it engages the hockey community, which is fairly small on relation to the community in general.

The NHL can barely make network television while college football is prevalent on all networks and the NFL is the ratings king. There is no way outside Minnesota or the rabid hockey community anyone thinks the Minnesota high school hockey tournament is the premier high school event anymore. Heck even in the NCAA wrestling will far outdraw hockey in terms of ratings and attendance.... how many nights are wrestling on ESPN vs hockey?
What’s your point in this post? Comparing high school hockey to NCAA wrestling? That’s cool. NHL to NFL? What does that have to do with anything? Maybe I should say that football is a niche sport on the world stage. Nobody outside the US cares about football and therefore it is not a big deal. We should all watch soccer. That is the sport of the world. By the way how many people are at those wrestling matches you talked about? And how many people outside the state of Texas care about Texas high school football? None. I couldn’t name a single high school football team in Texas. And I am a football fan actually.......point is the MN state hockey tournament is special because the people of MINNESOTA are passionate and care about it. Not because other people care about it.
The wrestling matches are sold out in Pittsburgh. They will draw 40K plus next year in Minneapolis. Minnesota drew about 1,000 for a Big Ten tournament game. If you can’t name a single high school in Texas that is ok, I am more than sure most people in Texas can’t name a single school in Minnesota. Texas is what, the 3rd largest state in terms of population? Perspective. Friday Night Lights should at least give you Odessa Permian.

My hunch is people like Drew Brees, Adrian Peterson, Von Miller, Nick Foles, etc. etc are far more well known nationally than any Minnesota born hockey player ever will be. Ever! The best ever....Eric Dickerson, Mike Singletary, Tom Landry, Dick, Layne, Earl Campbell, Emittt Thomas, John Randle, Michael Strahan, Forrest Gregg, YA Title, etc plus about 100 other household names came from Texas high school football.

Your point that only people in Minnesota care about the high school hockey tournament isn’t even correct, only hockey fans in Minnesota care about it. Most could care less, now. Most schools don’t even play hockey. Meaning much of the population has no direct correlation with hockey. The biggest city has 1 hockey team, the 3rd biggest is outdrawn by anyone. 5,000 showed up for a basketball game. The biggest hockey crowd didn’t hit 1,000.

I am a high school hockey guy, I have been on this “bored” since it started. We are failing to attract new people. We are, at our current rate, doomed to fail. I am a season ticket holder, my section is less and less full every year. I do not even go to every session anymore.
Oh and are those people famous because they played Texas High School football or because they play in the NFL? We are comparing two high school tournaments correct? Tiger Woods is more famous than any of those football players. He went to high school in Anaheim, CA. Does that make the CA golf tournament better than Texas football? California also happens to be the most populous state(more than Texas). I mean if the bar for rating a high school tournament is the most famous people to come out of there and the biggest population matters then Tiger in CA golf has to mean that’s the best state tournament in the country right?

I mean really Texas should be looking to move towards soccer. Christano Rinaldo and Lionel Messi. Ever heard of them? Most famous athletes in the world. Nobody outside the US gives two hoots about football. If Texas’s goal is to produce the most famous athletes soccer is a no brainer. It is also cheaper and the numbers aren’t plunging due to head injury concerns. Texas football has more of problem addressing head injury concerns than hockey does money.

Finally, all Texans don’t care about high school football. Only Texas high school football fans care about Texas high school football. I know pretty obvious right? Apparently that needed to be pointed out however. And as a side note I know people in TX that have never been to a high school football game so I can verify every resident of TX doesn’t care about football.

I understand that your average person in CA,NY, PA, etc doesn’t care about MN high school hockey. My point is they also don’t care about TX high school football. NFL fans care about NFL games. They don’t care about high school (at least 99.9% of them).

Stang5280
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Stang5280 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:12 pm

Circling back to a point Karl made a few pages ago now..,
karl(east) wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:41 pm
I realize there are a bunch of AA schools that can't compete with what we might call the elite tier of schools, and I don't think blocking opt-ups would strengthen the Class A tournament since it would really just strengthen the Class A sections that are already the best sections. One thing I think they could do is limit AA to 64 teams and bump low-enrollment schools down to A to accommodate the opt-ups.
I don't dislike this idea, though it would probably create a musical chairs effect with schools opting up or down during various cycles, and also impact a few sections disproportionately. I counted ten teams that currently opt up, so here would be the ten AA teams with the lowest enrollments that would be pushed down to Class A.

Tartan High School 1347
Hastings High School 1343
Rochester Century High School 1307
Spring Lake Park High School 1306
St. Francis High School 1303
Cambridge-Isanti High School 1302
Owatonna High School 1276
Chaska High School 1270
New Prague High School 1250
St. Louis Park High School 1240

That's actually not a bad list, as several of those schools were recently in Class A, and/or haven't been that competitive in AA. However, you are losing several programs from 1AA, and if they don't opt up then more south suburban schools would be forced down into that section.

As for the musical chairs effect, obviously Chaska would want to opt up for the current few cycles, but what happens after the "golden generation" graduates? Do they choose to return to Class A and be accused of sandbagging a la Hermantown? Century and Hastings are also currently strong, and would probably romp through 1A if they didn't opt up.

And if there are any more teams that opt up, we keep creeping up the list. Next up is Duluth East (1378), who obviously would choose to opt up, and then two Minneapolis schools, Washburn and South, who are part of the Minneapolis cooperative that appeals down to A. That finally brings us to Apple Valley (1392), which has been down for some time but is an awfully large school to be competing in Class A. I guess it comes down to whether you prioritize limiting Class A to smaller schools or allowing the current fringe AA teams to be more competitive by moving them down.

Section 8 guy
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Section 8 guy » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:54 pm

I hate to burst the bubble of the Debbie Downer crowd but the waiting list for season tickets just hit 10 years. I’ll wait for a second..........yep, 10 years. I think The Tourney is doing just fine.

My guess is it’s far more likely that the lens through which you see the tourney changes over time.

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:59 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:54 pm
I hate to burst the bubble of the Debbie Downer crowd but the waiting list for season tickets just hit 10 years. I’ll wait for a second..........yep, 10 years. I think The Tourney is doing just fine.

My guess is it’s far more likely that the lens through which you see the tourney changes over time.
=D> =D> =D> Spot on.

Section 8 guy
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Section 8 guy » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:21 pm

I have never experienced the Texas Football State Tournament. But here’s a question.........is it possible that Texas High School football is a bigger deal (no idea how you measure that) than Minnesota Hockey.......but that the Minnesota State Hockey Tournament is as big or is a bigger “event” than the Texas State football championships are?

One thing that I would think would dilute the TX football experience a bit is that you can only play one football game a week. So the state playoff gets drawn out whereas the Minnesota State Hockey Tournament ends up being more of a concentrated single celebration of hockey in MN which may heighten that single experience.

Maybe that’s silly but made sense to me.

nu2hockey
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by nu2hockey » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:50 pm

Why try to compare our hockey tourney to TX football...football playoffs are not a tourney as played in hockey or roundball...a little research shows TX football has 1226 schools playing football(142 schools have enrollment of 104 or less)..they have 12 state championship games..last year their attendance for the 12 championship games was 228,105...( by the way tickets are only $15)

Looking at the top attended games in TX history, the top game had 54,000+, a game in 1945 had
45,000+ as did a couple in mid 1960's...

Schools there are building $70 million high school football stadiums....jeez

TX football is a different beast.....

Our tourney may be a little predictable, but, as some pointed out it has a 10yr waiting list..the only change I would like is for the consolation and 3rd place go AWAY..you lose your done, just like sections

goldy313
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by goldy313 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:14 am

Stang..... I wonder what would happen if we changed the A tournament to the smallest 64 schools in stead of AA to the biggest 64 schools. Hill Murray and Roseau would clearly be among the smallest 64 but they could opt up anyway.

Given the F/R lunch exemption we already give Minneapolis, my hunch is this would be a good thing.

StanleyCup55
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by StanleyCup55 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:54 am

I love this idea. That makes sense.

Stang5280
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Stang5280 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:29 pm

goldy313 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:14 am
Stang..... I wonder what would happen if we changed the A tournament to the smallest 64 schools in stead of AA to the biggest 64 schools. Hill Murray and Roseau would clearly be among the smallest 64 but they could opt up anyway.

Given the F/R lunch exemption we already give Minneapolis, my hunch is this would be a good thing.
That’s certainly another way to skin the cat (no offense to any cat lovers, ha ha) and so crazy it just might work. I’m not ambitious enough to determine what the new cutoff line would be, but it would likely push Northfield, Mahtomedi, Sartell, and Alexandria up to AA, among others.

As with any such plan, there are compromises, but this idea would definitely make the Class A tournament more of a true small school event. It sounds like you would end the ability to petition down, which would obviously create some opposition from the Minneapolis and St. Paul schools, Kennedy, etc. I don’t know how competitive Alex or Mahtomedi would be on a consistent basis, but they would have years where they could push for a section championship. All in all a pretty good solution you proposed, goldy.

CakeScout17
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by CakeScout17 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:36 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:54 pm
I hate to burst the bubble of the Debbie Downer crowd but the waiting list for season tickets just hit 10 years. I’ll wait for a second..........yep, 10 years. I think The Tourney is doing just fine.

My guess is it’s far more likely that the lens through which you see the tourney changes over time.

=D>

Mite-dad
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Mite-dad » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:10 am

Stang5280 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:29 pm
goldy313 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:14 am
Stang..... I wonder what would happen if we changed the A tournament to the smallest 64 schools in stead of AA to the biggest 64 schools. Hill Murray and Roseau would clearly be among the smallest 64 but they could opt up anyway.

Given the F/R lunch exemption we already give Minneapolis, my hunch is this would be a good thing.
That’s certainly another way to skin the cat (no offense to any cat lovers, ha ha) and so crazy it just might work. I’m not ambitious enough to determine what the new cutoff line would be, but it would likely push Northfield, Mahtomedi, Sartell, and Alexandria up to AA, among others.

As with any such plan, there are compromises, but this idea would definitely make the Class A tournament more of a true small school event. It sounds like you would end the ability to petition down, which would obviously create some opposition from the Minneapolis and St. Paul schools, Kennedy, etc. I don’t know how competitive Alex or Mahtomedi would be on a consistent basis, but they would have years where they could push for a section championship. All in all a pretty good solution you proposed, goldy.
This would be the co-op buster plan.

Where is F3?
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Where is F3? » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:05 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:22 am
pekyman wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:52 pm
The current structure of the MSHSL does not work.Having a structure where a team falls within the guidelines to compete at the designated level only to be attacked and disparaged because they are too good for that level is ridiculous.
In Hermantown's case, they aren't "attacked" for being good. It's because most of their top players are transfers/open-enrollees. Look at all the future D1 players that have transferred/open enrolled to Hermantown. Do you think those kids make a difference in Class A against small town programs?

Just in the last five years, future D1 players that have transferred/open enrolled to Hermantown:

Wyatt Aamodt
Dylan Samberg
Eric Gotz
Darian Gotz
Tyler Watkins
Joey Pierce

And that doesn't even touch on all of the great players that transfer in there that don't make D1. How many other "Class A" programs have that going for them?
Cathedral, but your point remains the same.

goldy313
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by goldy313 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:12 am

Mite-dad wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:10 am
Stang5280 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:29 pm
goldy313 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:14 am
Stang..... I wonder what would happen if we changed the A tournament to the smallest 64 schools in stead of AA to the biggest 64 schools. Hill Murray and Roseau would clearly be among the smallest 64 but they could opt up anyway.

Given the F/R lunch exemption we already give Minneapolis, my hunch is this would be a good thing.
That’s certainly another way to skin the cat (no offense to any cat lovers, ha ha) and so crazy it just might work. I’m not ambitious enough to determine what the new cutoff line would be, but it would likely push Northfield, Mahtomedi, Sartell, and Alexandria up to AA, among others.

As with any such plan, there are compromises, but this idea would definitely make the Class A tournament more of a true small school event. It sounds like you would end the ability to petition down, which would obviously create some opposition from the Minneapolis and St. Paul schools, Kennedy, etc. I don’t know how competitive Alex or Mahtomedi would be on a consistent basis, but they would have years where they could push for a section championship. All in all a pretty good solution you proposed, goldy.
This would be the co-op buster plan.
Why? Minnesota River and New Ulm we’re both AA and allowed to petition down this year, MAML was last year. A hockey is by and large ruled by the top teams in term of enrollment and those from metro areas like Duluth, Grand Forks, and Minneapolis. Not Greenway, Luverne, etc.

FWIW AA hockey is also largely determined by enrollment.

Mite-dad
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by Mite-dad » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:33 am

goldy313 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:12 am
Mite-dad wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:10 am
Stang5280 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:29 pm

That’s certainly another way to skin the cat (no offense to any cat lovers, ha ha) and so crazy it just might work. I’m not ambitious enough to determine what the new cutoff line would be, but it would likely push Northfield, Mahtomedi, Sartell, and Alexandria up to AA, among others.

As with any such plan, there are compromises, but this idea would definitely make the Class A tournament more of a true small school event. It sounds like you would end the ability to petition down, which would obviously create some opposition from the Minneapolis and St. Paul schools, Kennedy, etc. I don’t know how competitive Alex or Mahtomedi would be on a consistent basis, but they would have years where they could push for a section championship. All in all a pretty good solution you proposed, goldy.
This would be the co-op buster plan.
Why? Minnesota River and New Ulm we’re both AA and allowed to petition down this year, MAML was last year. A hockey is by and large ruled by the top teams in term of enrollment and those from metro areas like Duluth, Grand Forks, and Minneapolis. Not Greenway, Luverne, etc.

FWIW AA hockey is also largely determined by enrollment.
My comment assumed the opt down option would go away as was stated in the reply I quoted.

goldy313
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Re: Pridictability of Class AA - state

Post by goldy313 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:31 pm

My fault, I missed it.

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