New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

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goldy313
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by goldy313 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:07 am

I guess I do not see what is broken. I like Pagestat but it has its limitations......for example why would any team in the top 30,outside of conference commitments, schedule a team like Tartan, Century, Hastings, StMA, etc.? The top teams will continue to schedule each other because they, in general, are not penalized for losing and have nothing to lose(, and if you are Karl and you do lose you will disregard it as an outlier. Nobody will break into that group, they can’t build up the SOS to do it if the top teams refuse to play them. This already happens in 1AA. We learned in 2017 with Karl, once you are a top team it is hard to drop....,even if you can only win 5 games. Your “improvements” immediately render nearly every team in AA outside, what? 20? Irrelevant in November. Many based on name alone.

spamtownusa
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by spamtownusa » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:39 am

Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:35 pm
Honest question. Is anyone aware of high school state tournaments anywhere that don’t have a geographic component to them? Isn’t it likely this is just how high school sports are handled everywhere? They are by definition called “state” tournaments.
Minnesota 6A football.

Section 8 guy
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by Section 8 guy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:39 pm

I’d count that but with a giant asterisk. Pretty tough to arrange it geographically when every team is within 20 miles of each other. Any others?

bodyup88
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by bodyup88 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:14 am

Good point, it is also hard to arrange it geographically when 62 of next year's 70 AA hockey teams are within 80 miles of Xcel Arena and probably 57 are within 40 miles. As I said yesterday, the question is what to do with the 8 teams from the north?

Section 8 guy
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:17 pm

Easy. Don’t do anything. Leave it as is. Dont try to bring a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. The options discussed here will only make the things people say they don’t like about the tournament bigger issues.

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm

I agree actually. The number one option to me is to get more northern teams to opt up. After that I like leaving the sections basically mixed north/metro. I like having two chances for northern teams to make it even if it means there is a chance of no northern teams.

To me really the biggest issue is section 1. I wonder if eliminating this section (absorbing the teams into other sections and making each section a little bigger) and then creating a backdoor tournament for runner ups isn't the way to go.

I realize this means kind of getting rid of a "non-metro" section, but let's face it basically it has become the Lakeville section whether they are really a state tournament quality team or not. This kind of hybrid scenario gives you what is most likely a more high quality team and non-metro teams have just as good of a chance at winning as another metro team(could get Rapids/East or Roseau/Moorhead in the same year). It also helps solve the complaint that often happens when 2 top teams are in the same section. They both have a chance to make it. You also have the chance to see some fresh faces from sections that get dominated by perennial powers (see Edina). I really think this set up solves a lot of problems.

spamtownusa
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by spamtownusa » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:16 pm

I like the idea of having 7 and creating a back door. It has been done in the past. Absorb section 1 into the south metro or take the metro out of 7 and 8 and combine the north. Either would work.

goldy313
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by goldy313 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm
I agree actually. The number one option to me is to get more northern teams to opt up. After that I like leaving the sections basically mixed north/metro. I like having two chances for northern teams to make it even if it means there is a chance of no northern teams.

To me really the biggest issue is section 1. I wonder if eliminating this section (absorbing the teams into other sections and making each section a little bigger) and then creating a backdoor tournament for runner ups isn't the way to go.

I realize this means kind of getting rid of a "non-metro" section, but let's face it basically it has become the Lakeville section whether they are really a state tournament quality team or not. This kind of hybrid scenario gives you what is most likely a more high quality team and non-metro teams have just as good of a chance at winning as another metro team(could get Rapids/East or Roseau/Moorhead in the same year). It also helps solve the complaint that often happens when 2 top teams are in the same section. They both have a chance to make it. You also have the chance to see some fresh faces from sections that get dominated by perennial powers (see Edina). I really think this set up solves a lot of problems.
I love this crap! 8AA is no better than 1AA and 1AA has actually won a state title in the last decade. 8AA and 1AA actually have a similar winning percentage over the last decade but northern people ignore this. Funny!

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:23 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm
I agree actually. The number one option to me is to get more northern teams to opt up. After that I like leaving the sections basically mixed north/metro. I like having two chances for northern teams to make it even if it means there is a chance of no northern teams.

To me really the biggest issue is section 1. I wonder if eliminating this section (absorbing the teams into other sections and making each section a little bigger) and then creating a backdoor tournament for runner ups isn't the way to go.

I realize this means kind of getting rid of a "non-metro" section, but let's face it basically it has become the Lakeville section whether they are really a state tournament quality team or not. This kind of hybrid scenario gives you what is most likely a more high quality team and non-metro teams have just as good of a chance at winning as another metro team(could get Rapids/East or Roseau/Moorhead in the same year). It also helps solve the complaint that often happens when 2 top teams are in the same section. They both have a chance to make it. You also have the chance to see some fresh faces from sections that get dominated by perennial powers (see Edina). I really think this set up solves a lot of problems.
I love this crap! 8AA is no better than 1AA and 1AA has actually won a state title in the last decade. 8AA and 1AA actually have a similar winning percentage over the last decade but northern people ignore this. Funny!
Whoa I didn’t know we were getting our panties in a bunch about it. You are correct LAKEVILLE teams have performed respectably at the tournament over the last decade. And they did have a very special group come through a few years back. However, a Lakeville team has won the section like 9 out of the last 10 years correct? So basically a metro suburb has kept the section respectable at the tournament. My feeling has been that the rest of the section hasn’t given them much competition. If somebody had some time they could put together the average pagestat rating for each section over the past ten years. My guess is 1 scores the lowest. If I am wrong I will eat crow. I would be interested to see.

My main point would be this. If we put Edina in a section with 7 bantam B teams Edina would win the section every year and probably perform pretty well at the tournament. That doesn’t mean that is a strong section.

Also, judging by the returning high school players and bantam rankings it doesn’t look like the trend is changing any time very soon. So if seeing Lakeville every year for the next 5-10 years again gets you excited then I guess we just have different opinions.

Finally, if section 1 has strong teams they wouldn’t really have a problem jumping into another section and potentially winning it or going through the back door. They wouldn’t be getting punished or anything.

For me personally one of the most predictable and boring parts of the tournament has been seeing Lakeville penciled in year after year. I was trying to find a way to maybe spice that up. If you like seeing that and disagree that is ok.

elliott70
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by elliott70 » Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:20 am

3 class ideas

ClassAGuy
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by ClassAGuy » Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:02 am

Put this here as well.... Kind of already been outlined by previous hockey minds on here but thought would lay it out again.

Not that I think we need 3 classes but you could steal from the idea from Football.

Have the Top 32 Teams for Class AAA
First Round of 32 and Sweet 16 at Big Neutral Sites
Elite 8 normal Thursday
Final 4 Friday
Championship Saturday

Next 48 Teams For Class AA
8 Geographic Sections (6 Teams per Section Top 2 seed get byes into Section Semifinals (4v5 & 3vs6 games in 1st round)
Final 8 1st Round of State on Wednesday
Final 4 Friday
Championship Saturday

Remaining 65 teams For Class A
8 Geographic Sections (8-9 team per Section)
First Round of State on Tuesday
Final 4 Friday
Championship Saturday

Would add Tuesday to extend the Tourney.

Issue would be TV for Friday
Would have to be like
9 AM & 11:30 AM For Class A

1:00 PM & 3:30 PM For Class AA

6:00 PM & 8:30 PM for Class AA

Saturday would be easy
Noon Class A
3:00 PM Class AA
7:00 PM Class AAA

With taking the Top 32 teams you could get all the "Country Club Teams" in one Batch and it would be outstanding take out the Geography part to eliminate the free Trips for Lakeville and Moorhead and it would be great matchup all the way through. Draw back the North may get shut out but I think we are getting closer to those days anyways.

Next 48 for AA would hopefully create more depth and better results and not so many blowouts as teams get down to the Final 4

Final 65 would hopefully open the door for smaller programs that Class A originally wanted to offer the State Tournament opportunity and experience to grow the game in those areas and programs.

I know this idea has flaws but just a thought....

elliott70
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by elliott70 » Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:20 pm

Here are some ideas

SEC Scotty
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by SEC Scotty » Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:53 pm

Put all the private schools in one section.

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:31 pm

Give everyone a championship trophy. And a parade.
Hockey Is For Everyone

yesiplayedhockey
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:55 am

I like all the ideas. But lets be honest...The people that run the MSHL are not smart enough, nor do they care enough to put this much energy into improving hockey. In their eyes, the state tournament is perfect and to some degree it's hard to argue with them if you walk down the streets on a Friday night in late March

Then we have to keep in mind, whatever we do for the boys we have to do for the girls. For years, it's made 1000% sense to move the girls tourney over to Ritter but some parent would scream their little Jenny isn't being treated like the "boys" so that idea always gets squashed

But let's assume the MSHL came to this forum and asked us "experts" for help.... What would I do? Well I would go to 4 class..not 3

A, AA, AAA and private (based on enrollment...teams can petition to play up)

I would have all the sectionals, regionals and semi finals of each class in super cool arenas around the state (good for small towns economy)

The finals for each class (4 games) would get played at our D1 College arenas (rotate around UMD, BSU, St Thomas future arena)....Now we have crowned 4 champs...

Finals could be

Class A - Roseau vs Warroad
Class AA - Hermantown vs Chaska - I put Hermantown in class AA just to fire up you readers ...But we can treat them as a private school if you want :)
Class AAA - Moorhead vs Tonka
Private - Hill versus BSM
( If you win two titles within 5 years, you must move up one class...)

The following weekend (along with the girls) I would have a final 4 weekend played at the X....Either Thursday and Saturday...or Friday and Saturday

Think about this for a final four

Class A - Warroad
Class AA- Hermantown
Classs AAA - Tonka
Private - Hill

Semi final night

Game one...Hill versus Hermantown
Game two - Warroad vs Tonka

Saturday night the finals

Gov78
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by Gov78 » Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:51 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:31 pm
Give everyone a championship trophy. And a parade.
That is what this entire thread is about.

elliott70
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by elliott70 » Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:16 pm

When you really think about it, it is not.

Gov78
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by Gov78 » Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:23 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:16 pm
When you really think about it, it is not.
If not where does it end and the bigger question can the MSHSL league afford an expensed tournament?

I say no they cannot so unless small schools can be convinced to play somewhere besides the X and forego TV for streaming coverage it'll never happen as the MSHSL and many schools are bleeding money.

elliott70
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by elliott70 » Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:32 pm

Gov78 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:23 pm
elliott70 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:16 pm
When you really think about it, it is not.
If not where does it end and the bigger question can the MSHSL league afford an expensed tournament?

I say no they cannot so unless small schools can be convinced to play somewhere besides the X and forego TV for streaming coverage it'll never happen as the MSHSL and many schools are bleeding money.
It’s all hypothetical.

BSUBeaver
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by BSUBeaver » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:06 pm

I posted this at the end of last year. Allows for a two class system, but would move teams up based on success. North Dakota does something like this with football, I believe. This was done after last year's Class A results.
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I like the idea of a "Success Point" system for classification of schools, but I think you have to go longer than 2 years as to not punish the "flash in the pan" program that had one successful year.

You get so many points per year based on if you make the State Tournament and how far you go. 1 point for making the State Tournament, 2 points for making the State Semis, 3 points making the State Championship. If you accumulate so many points (say 12 over four years as you could get six in one year), you get bumped up. Everyone starts out with their placement based on enrollment as they do now. If you are an A school by enrollment and your four year "Success Point" total is over the limit, you get bumped up.

Every two year classification cycle, you take a look at the previous four years. If you are a school that has been bumped up, and your new total falls back below 12, you can slide back down.

The MSHSL still could allow opt ups and opt downs based on policy.

EDIT: Here is what it would look like for the upcoming two year period:

Hermantown 16 points
Warroad 15 points
Mahtomedi 15 points
------------
Gentry 6 (have opted up)
Dodge County 6
Alexandria 4
Cathedral 4
East Grand Forks 3
Little Falls 3
Orono 3
Mankato East 2
Deleno 2
New Prague 1
Minneapolis 1
Northern Lakes 1
Litchfield/D-C 1
Hutchinson 1
Luverne 1
Northfield 1

defense
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by defense » Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:14 pm

I always liked changing both class A and AA to a true STATE tournament, splitting it up regionally throughout the state similar to tier one and tier two accept using school size instead of season success as a divider. I know this goes against having the "best 8 teams" but it would be more intriguing to me than a Twin cities championship. My wet fly worth.

The51
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Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by The51 » Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:20 am

defense wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:14 pm
I always liked changing both class A and AA to a true STATE tournament, splitting it up regionally throughout the state similar to tier one and tier two accept using school size instead of season success as a divider. I know this goes against having the "best 8 teams" but it would be more intriguing to me than a Twin cities championship. My wet fly worth.
Can you expand on this, not sure I followed

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