New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

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goldy313
Posts: 3213
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by goldy313 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:07 am

I guess I do not see what is broken. I like Pagestat but it has its limitations......for example why would any team in the top 30,outside of conference commitments, schedule a team like Tartan, Century, Hastings, StMA, etc.? The top teams will continue to schedule each other because they, in general, are not penalized for losing and have nothing to lose(, and if you are Karl and you do lose you will disregard it as an outlier. Nobody will break into that group, they can’t build up the SOS to do it if the top teams refuse to play them. This already happens in 1AA. We learned in 2017 with Karl, once you are a top team it is hard to drop....,even if you can only win 5 games. Your “improvements” immediately render nearly every team in AA outside, what? 20? Irrelevant in November. Many based on name alone.

spamtownusa
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by spamtownusa » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:39 am

Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:35 pm
Honest question. Is anyone aware of high school state tournaments anywhere that don’t have a geographic component to them? Isn’t it likely this is just how high school sports are handled everywhere? They are by definition called “state” tournaments.
Minnesota 6A football.

Section 8 guy
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by Section 8 guy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:39 pm

I’d count that but with a giant asterisk. Pretty tough to arrange it geographically when every team is within 20 miles of each other. Any others?

bodyup88
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by bodyup88 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:14 am

Good point, it is also hard to arrange it geographically when 62 of next year's 70 AA hockey teams are within 80 miles of Xcel Arena and probably 57 are within 40 miles. As I said yesterday, the question is what to do with the 8 teams from the north?

Section 8 guy
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:17 pm

Easy. Don’t do anything. Leave it as is. Dont try to bring a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. The options discussed here will only make the things people say they don’t like about the tournament bigger issues.

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm

I agree actually. The number one option to me is to get more northern teams to opt up. After that I like leaving the sections basically mixed north/metro. I like having two chances for northern teams to make it even if it means there is a chance of no northern teams.

To me really the biggest issue is section 1. I wonder if eliminating this section (absorbing the teams into other sections and making each section a little bigger) and then creating a backdoor tournament for runner ups isn't the way to go.

I realize this means kind of getting rid of a "non-metro" section, but let's face it basically it has become the Lakeville section whether they are really a state tournament quality team or not. This kind of hybrid scenario gives you what is most likely a more high quality team and non-metro teams have just as good of a chance at winning as another metro team(could get Rapids/East or Roseau/Moorhead in the same year). It also helps solve the complaint that often happens when 2 top teams are in the same section. They both have a chance to make it. You also have the chance to see some fresh faces from sections that get dominated by perennial powers (see Edina). I really think this set up solves a lot of problems.

spamtownusa
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by spamtownusa » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:16 pm

I like the idea of having 7 and creating a back door. It has been done in the past. Absorb section 1 into the south metro or take the metro out of 7 and 8 and combine the north. Either would work.

goldy313
Posts: 3213
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by goldy313 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm
I agree actually. The number one option to me is to get more northern teams to opt up. After that I like leaving the sections basically mixed north/metro. I like having two chances for northern teams to make it even if it means there is a chance of no northern teams.

To me really the biggest issue is section 1. I wonder if eliminating this section (absorbing the teams into other sections and making each section a little bigger) and then creating a backdoor tournament for runner ups isn't the way to go.

I realize this means kind of getting rid of a "non-metro" section, but let's face it basically it has become the Lakeville section whether they are really a state tournament quality team or not. This kind of hybrid scenario gives you what is most likely a more high quality team and non-metro teams have just as good of a chance at winning as another metro team(could get Rapids/East or Roseau/Moorhead in the same year). It also helps solve the complaint that often happens when 2 top teams are in the same section. They both have a chance to make it. You also have the chance to see some fresh faces from sections that get dominated by perennial powers (see Edina). I really think this set up solves a lot of problems.
I love this crap! 8AA is no better than 1AA and 1AA has actually won a state title in the last decade. 8AA and 1AA actually have a similar winning percentage over the last decade but northern people ignore this. Funny!

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: New State Tournament Format (or my day dream)

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:23 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm
I agree actually. The number one option to me is to get more northern teams to opt up. After that I like leaving the sections basically mixed north/metro. I like having two chances for northern teams to make it even if it means there is a chance of no northern teams.

To me really the biggest issue is section 1. I wonder if eliminating this section (absorbing the teams into other sections and making each section a little bigger) and then creating a backdoor tournament for runner ups isn't the way to go.

I realize this means kind of getting rid of a "non-metro" section, but let's face it basically it has become the Lakeville section whether they are really a state tournament quality team or not. This kind of hybrid scenario gives you what is most likely a more high quality team and non-metro teams have just as good of a chance at winning as another metro team(could get Rapids/East or Roseau/Moorhead in the same year). It also helps solve the complaint that often happens when 2 top teams are in the same section. They both have a chance to make it. You also have the chance to see some fresh faces from sections that get dominated by perennial powers (see Edina). I really think this set up solves a lot of problems.
I love this crap! 8AA is no better than 1AA and 1AA has actually won a state title in the last decade. 8AA and 1AA actually have a similar winning percentage over the last decade but northern people ignore this. Funny!
Whoa I didn’t know we were getting our panties in a bunch about it. You are correct LAKEVILLE teams have performed respectably at the tournament over the last decade. And they did have a very special group come through a few years back. However, a Lakeville team has won the section like 9 out of the last 10 years correct? So basically a metro suburb has kept the section respectable at the tournament. My feeling has been that the rest of the section hasn’t given them much competition. If somebody had some time they could put together the average pagestat rating for each section over the past ten years. My guess is 1 scores the lowest. If I am wrong I will eat crow. I would be interested to see.

My main point would be this. If we put Edina in a section with 7 bantam B teams Edina would win the section every year and probably perform pretty well at the tournament. That doesn’t mean that is a strong section.

Also, judging by the returning high school players and bantam rankings it doesn’t look like the trend is changing any time very soon. So if seeing Lakeville every year for the next 5-10 years again gets you excited then I guess we just have different opinions.

Finally, if section 1 has strong teams they wouldn’t really have a problem jumping into another section and potentially winning it or going through the back door. They wouldn’t be getting punished or anything.

For me personally one of the most predictable and boring parts of the tournament has been seeing Lakeville penciled in year after year. I was trying to find a way to maybe spice that up. If you like seeing that and disagree that is ok.

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