State of Hockey's Team

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Mite-dad
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by Mite-dad » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:24 pm

From what I hear, UW-River Falls pretty much cut all there Tier III Junior players this spring. Apparently Tier III Juniors isn't enough anymore either even for DIII hockey.

Mite-dad
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by Mite-dad » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.

O-townClown
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Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town

Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by O-townClown » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm
Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.
You've just taken away the incentive for a kid not Div. I committed upon completion of HS to even try to get there.

I fail to see what is so evil about a kid 18-20 staying focused on hockey. They've got a lifetime ahead to work and may very well stay out of trouble.
Be kind. Rewind.

BSUBeaver
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by BSUBeaver » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm
Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.
Then what do you have left for that 19 year old junior player that is border line D-I caliber? He plays another year of junior, gets better and lands a spot on a D-I roster. But what if he doesn't develop quite to the level D-Is are looking for and now the D-III door is closed?

Or do you set it up where every year of junior hockey after 19, he loses a year of D-III eligibility (much like all of NCAA hockey does for those who play junior after their 21st birthday)?

Stang5280
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by Stang5280 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:27 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:22 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:42 pm
Changing gears a bit, I am copying a post from the USCHO forums that touches on an interesting point regarding UMD’s success, one which was echoed by a friend of mine who is a UMD alumnus and is a season ticket holder.
As someone who has been going to UMD games since the early 80's as a little kid, I don't know how we've gotten to where we are today. There were some dark years between 1986, 1993, and 2003-2004, until we finally got it going in 2009. Personally, first one was surreal and last year was really a validation for the program, but last night was just enjoying the ride. We are going to lose some guys early and Sandelin deserves a shot at the NHL, so who knows where it all goes from here. Back to my original question I've thought about how we went from being a second tier program and one described by my Gopher friends as their ugly stepchild, to now the best program in the nation and this is what I have as factors:
1. The obvious Sandelin figuring it out. There were some valleys in his tenure and I think the lowest was pulling scholarships from guys and still feel it was a bad look.
2. A shift towards Minnesota kids and not just older Canadian players who didn't develop much from their freshman year.
3. Amsoil Arena feels like a big time venue as opposed to the DECC.
4. The biggest factor in my opinion the development of the Hibbing program. That school has been the gift that has just kept on giving us top tier talent.
Fixed that for ya. :D
Fair enough... I kinda teed that one up for you :wink:

Mite-dad
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by Mite-dad » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:46 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm
Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm
Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.
You've just taken away the incentive for a kid not Div. I committed upon completion of HS to even try to get there.

I fail to see what is so evil about a kid 18-20 staying focused on hockey. They've got a lifetime ahead to work and may very well stay out of trouble.
I see what you are saying but it also takes opportunities from kids who are good hockey players that can play D3 but know they are not D1 level, and they want to get on with their education. They are students first still right? Especially at D3 level. IMVHO, it is just a money grab by junior level hockey, especially tier III juniors.

Stang5280
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by Stang5280 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:04 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:24 pm
From what I hear, UW-River Falls pretty much cut all there Tier III Junior players this spring. Apparently Tier III Juniors isn't enough anymore either even for DIII hockey.
In most cases it never was. There are plenty of NAHL and even USHL players who don’t make it at the DI level to fill out DIII rosters. As you stated in your other post, Tier III is largely a cash grab. From comparing 18-19 to 19-20 rosters, River Falls only had a handful of NA3HL alumni, and most were not significant contributors last year (and there are still a few left on the roster). There is normally quite a bit of turnover at the tail end of DIII rosters regardless of players’ backgrounds.

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:05 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:46 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm
Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm
Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.
You've just taken away the incentive for a kid not Div. I committed upon completion of HS to even try to get there.

I fail to see what is so evil about a kid 18-20 staying focused on hockey. They've got a lifetime ahead to work and may very well stay out of trouble.
I see what you are saying but it also takes opportunities from kids who are good hockey players that can play D3 but know they are not D1 level, and they want to get on with their education. They are students first still right? Especially at D3 level. IMVHO, it is just a money grab by junior level hockey, especially tier III juniors.
Some DIII schools, like Concordia Moorhead, allow players to come right from high school and play for them. It’s used as a recruiting tactic actually. However, I believe most high school seniors good enough to play DIII want to give juniors a shot and maybe go for that D1 offer.

northwoods oldtimer
Posts: 2473
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:01 pm

Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:29 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm
Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm
Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.
You've just taken away the incentive for a kid not Div. I committed upon completion of HS to even try to get there.

I fail to see what is so evil about a kid 18-20 staying focused on hockey. They've got a lifetime ahead to work and may very well stay out of trouble.
O-town, excellent points if/when possible I hire military veterans followed by college hockey guys. They are highly disciplined, self motivated individuals and far more mature than majority of their peer group.
That line up at UMD can DO WORK!! Kudos to UMD Bulldogs.

WestMetro
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by WestMetro » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:58 am

There is a championship celebration on the campus tonight at 6 PM. I think it will be carried on NCHCTV live stream

gopherpuck516
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by gopherpuck516 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:58 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:46 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm
Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:12 pm
Honestly I think it is dumb that you have to play multiple years of juniors to play D3 hockey. NCAA D3 should make a freshman age limit of 19.
You've just taken away the incentive for a kid not Div. I committed upon completion of HS to even try to get there.

I fail to see what is so evil about a kid 18-20 staying focused on hockey. They've got a lifetime ahead to work and may very well stay out of trouble.
I see what you are saying but it also takes opportunities from kids who are good hockey players that can play D3 but know they are not D1 level, and they want to get on with their education. They are students first still right? Especially at D3 level. IMVHO, it is just a money grab by junior level hockey, especially tier III juniors.
There are still options for those kids. College club hockey is fairly competitive depending on the level (ACHA has D1, D2, andD3). Their D1 teams typically have some kids who played juniors but there’s plenty of kids on those teams who came directly from HS. A good MN HS player would play on any D1 club team in the country straight from HS.

northwoods oldtimer
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:25 pm

gopherpuck516 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:58 pm
Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:46 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm


You've just taken away the incentive for a kid not Div. I committed upon completion of HS to even try to get there.

I fail to see what is so evil about a kid 18-20 staying focused on hockey. They've got a lifetime ahead to work and may very well stay out of trouble.
I see what you are saying but it also takes opportunities from kids who are good hockey players that can play D3 but know they are not D1 level, and they want to get on with their education. They are students first still right? Especially at D3 level. IMVHO, it is just a money grab by junior level hockey, especially tier III juniors.
There are still options for those kids. College club hockey is fairly competitive depending on the level (ACHA has D1, D2, andD3). Their D1 teams typically have some kids who played juniors but there’s plenty of kids on those teams who came directly from HS. A good MN HS player would play on any D1 club team in the country straight from HS.
D3 college coaches get paid a salary to win (for the most part) so they are going to take the best players available and that just happens to be NAHL and USHL hockey players. Whats equal is the D3 coaches allow the high school kid to try out which will last about a week or less. Truth be told they are not capable of that level of play for the majority and once on the ice they know it. There is ton of really good hockey players with only 60 D1 colleges so D3 has gotten well stacked with good hockey talent, in the past decade and half and will only continue. All the way around from mites through junior the level of development gets better each passing year. UMD is but one program reaping the rewards of a very much improved development model. With so many Minnesota kids on the UMD roster its a testament to the model which is working very well. Community based hockey is live and well in Minnesota hope it continues to churn out such fine hockey product that is ready for USNP, USHL, BCHL, NAHL and beyond. Benefactor to mite_dads around the state is that you get a nice return of coaching talent currently stepping into programs around the state of young men who have run the course of Bantam, HS, Junior and College level hockey which is a huge asset to any association. The added luxury is these guys are NOT entitled they know the work ethic it takes, they know the drill. So note to future hockey parents, leave the drama at home and enjoy the run, you are a fortunate bunch to gain such quality coaching.

O-townClown
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by O-townClown » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:28 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:24 pm
From what I hear, UW-River Falls pretty much cut all there Tier III Junior players this spring. Apparently Tier III Juniors isn't enough anymore either even for DIII hockey.
http://na3hl.com/player-advancement/college/
Be kind. Rewind.

karl(east)
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by karl(east) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 pm

I threw up some HS-centric thoughts on UMD over the weekend: https://apatientcycle.com/2019/04/15/doggedness/

I made a mention of the Hermantown-UMD connection there, which is obvious. Looking back at recent rosters, the only real front-line D-I players over the past decade from Hermantown who didn't go to UMD are Wyatt Aamodt and Sandelin's own kid, which was an intentional move. UMD has had that pipeline on lockdown, while they've never really had that level of a relationship with East, or even Marshall when the Toppers have had their waves of talent. The coaching staff's direct ties there probably play a big role in that.

And yeah, rainier, they're also doing a pretty good job of locking up the Hibbing talent. :wink: They've even pulled in some Rapids kids lately, whereas in the past it seemed like they were usually Gophers.

WestMetro
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by WestMetro » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:32 pm

Well done Karl!

And pipeline continues to build with Isaac Howard this week

rainier2
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by rainier2 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:02 am

karl(east) wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 pm
I threw up some HS-centric thoughts on UMD over the weekend: https://apatientcycle.com/2019/04/15/doggedness/

I made a mention of the Hermantown-UMD connection there, which is obvious. Looking back at recent rosters, the only real front-line D-I players over the past decade from Hermantown who didn't go to UMD are Wyatt Aamodt and Sandelin's own kid, which was an intentional move. UMD has had that pipeline on lockdown, while they've never really had that level of a relationship with East, or even Marshall when the Toppers have had their waves of talent. The coaching staff's direct ties there probably play a big role in that.

And yeah, rainier, they're also doing a pretty good job of locking up the Hibbing talent. :wink: They've even pulled in some Rapids kids lately, whereas in the past it seemed like they were usually Gophers.
Yeah, hopefully now with Lucia gone, more GR stars will go the UMD route. Dogs are about to get another Hibbing stud, Darian Gotz. He didn't get to Hermantown until 2nd year of Pee Wees, so he was a fully established top player at that point. But, he has continued to grow into a player good enough to get a full ride to the best college program in the country, so I guess Hermantown can have a little of the credit for his development. :D

InThePipes
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by InThePipes » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:15 am

karl(east) wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 pm
I threw up some HS-centric thoughts on UMD over the weekend: https://apatientcycle.com/2019/04/15/doggedness/

I made a mention of the Hermantown-UMD connection there, which is obvious. Looking back at recent rosters, the only real front-line D-I players over the past decade from Hermantown who didn't go to UMD are Wyatt Aamodt and Sandelin's own kid, which was an intentional move. UMD has had that pipeline on lockdown, while they've never really had that level of a relationship with East, or even Marshall when the Toppers have had their waves of talent. The coaching staff's direct ties there probably play a big role in that.

And yeah, rainier, they're also doing a pretty good job of locking up the Hibbing talent. :wink: They've even pulled in some Rapids kids lately, whereas in the past it seemed like they were usually Gophers.
=D>

bardown27
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by bardown27 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:42 am

rainier2 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:02 am
karl(east) wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 pm
I threw up some HS-centric thoughts on UMD over the weekend: https://apatientcycle.com/2019/04/15/doggedness/

I made a mention of the Hermantown-UMD connection there, which is obvious. Looking back at recent rosters, the only real front-line D-I players over the past decade from Hermantown who didn't go to UMD are Wyatt Aamodt and Sandelin's own kid, which was an intentional move. UMD has had that pipeline on lockdown, while they've never really had that level of a relationship with East, or even Marshall when the Toppers have had their waves of talent. The coaching staff's direct ties there probably play a big role in that.

And yeah, rainier, they're also doing a pretty good job of locking up the Hibbing talent. :wink: They've even pulled in some Rapids kids lately, whereas in the past it seemed like they were usually Gophers.
Yeah, hopefully now with Lucia gone, more GR stars will go the UMD route. Dogs are about to get another Hibbing stud, Darian Gotz. He didn't get to Hermantown until 2nd year of Pee Wees, so he was a fully established top player at that point. But, he has continued to grow into a player good enough to get a full ride to the best college program in the country, so I guess Hermantown can have a little of the credit for his development. :D
Part of the reason GR kids were going to the Gophers is because Lucia is a GR alum.

northwoods oldtimer
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:59 am

karl(east) wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 pm
I threw up some HS-centric thoughts on UMD over the weekend: https://apatientcycle.com/2019/04/15/doggedness/

I made a mention of the Hermantown-UMD connection there, which is obvious. Looking back at recent rosters, the only real front-line D-I players over the past decade from Hermantown who didn't go to UMD are Wyatt Aamodt and Sandelin's own kid, which was an intentional move. UMD has had that pipeline on lockdown, while they've never really had that level of a relationship with East, or even Marshall when the Toppers have had their waves of talent. The coaching staff's direct ties there probably play a big role in that.

And yeah, rainier, they're also doing a pretty good job of locking up the Hibbing talent. :wink: They've even pulled in some Rapids kids lately, whereas in the past it seemed like they were usually Gophers.
Excellent article as always. Your writing is never sub par Karl.

goldy313
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by goldy313 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:01 am

Lucia was good coach, he won with Woog’s kids though. He underachieved with his own recruits! And largely turned Minnesota into an also ran. Some can, rightfully, be blamed on the Big10....heck mostly. But he did not adapt.

The MNSCU coaches did. Now Minnesota is irreverent.

xy
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by xy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:27 am

goldy313 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:01 am
Lucia was good coach, he won with Woog’s kids though.
This idea has proven impervious to facts for 16 years, since the 2003 championship, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but: the 2003 team was essentially all Lucia's recruits.

bodyup88
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by bodyup88 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:48 am

goldy313, perhaps you think Minnesota is not only irreverent but also even IRRELEVANT. With respect to Lucia, he won the two NCAA titles in his third and fourth seasons as coach (2002 and 2003), so he clearly had a lot of "his own guys" by then, particularly, players like Potulny and Vanek (who had 62 points in 2002-03 as a freshman) who Woog would not have recruited since they were not from Minnesota.

goldy313
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by goldy313 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:21 am

He also lost to Holy Cross, and turned a premier college hockey program that drew 10,000 people to games at Mariucci to a team who draws 500 to a Big10 tournament game.

Woog recruits kids and gets let go. They don’t leave and tDon gets all the credit. Crazy.

Love Lucia all you want but he did nothing after the Woog kids left. And he left the program in the worst shape it has been in decades.

SCBlueLiner
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by SCBlueLiner » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:30 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:21 am
He also lost to Holy Cross, and turned a premier college hockey program that drew 10,000 people to games at 3M Arena at Mariucci Place to a team who draws 500 to a Big10 tournament game.

Woog recruits kids and gets let go. They don’t leave and tDon gets all the credit. Crazy.

Love Lucia all you want but he did nothing after the Woog kids left. And he left the program in the worst shape it has been in decades.
I fixed your post for you and I would argue that it is things like this ^^^ that have done more to alienate the fan base and drive attendance into the dumpster than anything Lucia did. It's the administration's negligence of the program and milking the fan base for every last dime they can get out of them that has turned people away.

xy
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Re: State of Hockey's Team

Post by xy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:45 am

There are plenty of legitimate complaints one can have about Lucia, and how his tenure ended, and I share many myself. No fan can be happy with the state of that program.

But this idea that Lucia did "nothing after the Woog kids left" is the kind of argument that will prompt people to resolve future doubts against the person making it. As I mentioned, the 2003 team was essentially all Lucia recruits. They went back to the Frozen Four in 2005, 2012, and 2014, reaching the final in that last year. He won a conference regular season championship every year from 2012 through 2017 (and yes, the last four were in the weaker Big Ten, but the first two of those were in the WCHA). That is not nothing, and claiming that it is weakens the legitimate points you are making.

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