People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

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Duckguy13
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:59 pm

People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Duckguy13 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:21 pm

Here's a thought..anyone who carries 3 or more D1 commits for more than 3 yrs in a row must go AA...good thought eh? No matter school size..if you want to play the recruiter route go the Shattuck or Gentry route. Play tier 1 or something similar. (Gentry even more interesting...tier 1 team is #1 in the country(after 4 yrs in existence), rest of kids make up MSHL...probably makes for a pretty good mn highschool team...even with mostly freshman, sophomores, and juniors. Under 200 students in the whole school...hockey, lax, dance, golf...give them a couple years, they may have 2 tier 1 teams. Before they have to play AA.

Might keep a few people from moving and chomping the #s...looked at this for a few minutes and the more I think about it the more it makes sense. CATHEDRAL Hermantown, other privates, either limit the recruiting and stay single A...or no matter the size are forced to move up.

If this was to happen to someone looking to place their kid they might reconsider the location..who is full, who might get seen and where...? Can I make a good living there and can my kid or kids be happy? I'm sure there are other good hockey towns that are good and fighting to make a difference that might have 1 or 2 kids that keep them competitive and would love to have one or 2 more. That would indeed spread it out,,,more parity, more equal level of play...And If...your kid is good enough..they will find you....or go to SCC or Hermantown, or ..Gentry future and have to compete at AA


Peace, love to hockey

#24#8 rest in peace, difference maker!!

ClassAGuy
Posts: 196
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by ClassAGuy » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:32 am

Interesting Post.

I will bite being its Class A

I will play devil's advocate I know you are a big Monti Guy. So I will ask was it fair then in your mind that your program was giving the benefit of the doubt and allowed by the MSHSL to play Class A with AA Enrollment because you were not competitive at AA level. You went all the way to the Class A Title game with AA Enrollment. I loved it and it was good for Class A Tourney. I know most 5A Schools were not thrilled that AA Team got to play in Class A.

If you want to Start calling out Cathedral & Hermantown to move up for recruiting be careful... Mahtomedi got North St Paul's leading scorer last year. EGF has kids coming in from across the river. Warroad get kids from Canada. Greenway last year had kids from Hibbing. Just looking at the State Tournament Last year alone. Player movement happens and will continue to happen.

If you are going to start to call out just a few Class A teams what about the Monticello Rule- It has opened the door for Cambridge, River Lakes, Becker Big Lake, St Francis, Dodge County and Monticello to play in Class A with AA enrollment numbers. I am assuming you are good with that?

Class A is a good as it has been and I think personally the Hatred for Cathedral and Hermantown is good for the Tournament Flavor.

Again just looking to create more discussion. Good topic and I like the way your Team is playing and they are my favorite in 5A!

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Puck8 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:42 am

Instituting a Class placement policy based on D1 commits would be a non-starter with MSHSL and I would have to agree. Too many ongoing changing dynamics within that process with verbal vs NLI, decommits, transfers, players leave for juniors, etc.

But you lost me on the whole recruiting part. First you mention that if a school wants to recruit, they should play “tier 1 or something”. That effectively boxes out all private schools, and maybe that’s your agenda. But then later you mention that private schools “and Hermantown” should have some sort of recruiting-lite to stay in A. So, are you proposing that public schools are now allowed to recruit openly or are we just subjectively calling out all schools that folks assume are recruiting? Then, if the qualifier to move up is 3 D1 players, then shouldn’t a team with fewer than 3 have the option to move down? ClassAguy does a nice job of summing all this up.

As far as Gentry, they have done a great job of launching a HS team and Class A is a good fit for now. Within that context, how many players on their HS roster have you heard of prior to this season? 2-3? Who knows where that will go, but it’s likely they will be AA soon enough. But they are one of a handful of newer privates that fit the Class A model now but are likely to move up eventually. Providence and SWC come to mind. I’m OK with looking at auto moving privates to AA, but I believe they need a window to build the program first.

School size seems to be the most universal starting point (albeit flawed at times), but it just comes down to small schools doing the right thing after they have clearly outdistanced their Class A competition. I am continually baffled that Class A teams are allowed to play an essentially Class AA schedule all year then drop down to A for playoffs. To me, that’s where we need to focus the crosshairs to force change. Limit the number of games Class A can play AA and go from there.

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by zooomx » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:37 am

ClassAGuy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:32 am
Interesting Post.

I will bite being its Class A

I will play devil's advocate I know you are a big Monti Guy. So I will ask was it fair then in your mind that your program was giving the benefit of the doubt and allowed by the MSHSL to play Class A with AA Enrollment because you were not competitive at AA level. You went all the way to the Class A Title game with AA Enrollment. I loved it and it was good for Class A Tourney. I know most 5A Schools were not thrilled that AA Team got to play in Class A.

If you want to Start calling out Cathedral & Hermantown to move up for recruiting be careful... Mahtomedi got North St Paul's leading scorer last year. EGF has kids coming in from across the river. Warroad get kids from Canada. Greenway last year had kids from Hibbing. Just looking at the State Tournament Last year alone. Player movement happens and will continue to happen.

If you are going to start to call out just a few Class A teams what about the Monticello Rule- It has opened the door for Cambridge, River Lakes, Becker Big Lake, St Francis, Dodge County and Monticello to play in Class A with AA enrollment numbers. I am assuming you are good with that?

Class A is a good as it has been and I think personally the Hatred for Cathedral and Hermantown is good for the Tournament Flavor.

Again just looking to create more discussion. Good topic and I like the way your Team is playing and they are my favorite in 5A!
This is a good take on the whole situation. Although I am on record saying HT and SCC should go AA, I will be honest enough to say my hometown squad had some pretty cool moments when they beat SCC in the sections finals to go to the State tournament 2 years ago and then topped it off when they put a beat down on Hermantown in the state semi-finals.

Joe2015
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Joe2015 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:08 am

Hmmm how about we make it really simple: and I would apply this rule to EVERY sport. If you when a state championship, you move up a level the next section realignment schedule and you have to stay there for four years.

Now perhaps you arent some title chasing program: you just had one really unique class come thru. Fine: after those four years you can move back down. Of course if you win another, then you go back up.

We have seen this problem in other sports: Caledonia in football is CLEARLY head and shoulders above others in AA. So move them up. DeLaSalle in basketball should probably be playing AAAA

Section 8 guy
Posts: 540
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Section 8 guy » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:12 pm

I like the relegation concept.....but 1 title moves you up for 4 years is too harsh. I could see two titles in 4 years moves you up for two or three. But I think a system requiring a bit more sustained success than 1 season would be better.

Duckguy13
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Duckguy13 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:29 pm

I'm new to this...I will try to be much more cautious with wording...
I was certainly not trying to call out only SCC and HT, there are many others teetering on the lines with transfers and recruitment, both A and AA. I just hate dynasties. I just wish there was a way to at least force the A teams doing it to AA.

To your second point...
Annandale went to Buffalo a few years ago (9 kids from Mites thru HS I think), Buffalo needs all the help they can get to stay competitive at AA. Maple Lake only has a total of 2 kids in the highschool 1 varsity and 1 JV. So it's not like the coop is a huge difference maker. Monticello enrollment is 1113 currently and the mshl cut off is in the 1235 range for 64 largest schools. Making monti the 75th largest school. Will they need to move eventually yes and hopefully SCC, HT, Mahto, and a couple others are already there to welcome them.

I'm with you on some type of relegation...maybe 2 in 4 years...or 3 in 5...I think still having the back to back Championship is a heck of a goal or feat.

Thanks sorry I stired such a deep pot :D

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 640
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:06 am

"I am continually baffled that Class A teams are allowed to play an essentially Class AA schedule all year then drop down to A for playoffs. To me, that’s where we need to focus the crosshairs to force change. Limit the number of games Class A can play AA and go from there."


This is one simple rule change that would make the most difference.

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:33 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 am

So what is the bigger problem

Class A schools playing mainly a Class AA schedule all year then dropping down to class A ?

Or

Class AA schools that mainly play a Class A schedule throughout the year?

Personally I think the rule should be "if you want to play up, be my guest. But you can't play down"

I know for the Northern teams that may be a small issue so maybe it's some ratio? (like 80% of your games must be at your level)

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Puck8 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:12 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 am

I know for the Northern teams that may be a small issue so maybe it's some ratio? (like 80% of your games must be at your level)
Outside of conference play, you get 3 games to play up/down. Don’t like it? Then change classes. This dynamic just makes zero sense. I would prefer 0 games, but 3 seems like a fair compromise.

Continuing as it is will eventually land us with 3 classes which I doubt too many want, but MSHSL will go that route before they force historically dominant A schools up to AA.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by elliott70 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:23 pm

I believe there are currently 154 high school hockey teams.
To go to 3 classes under the MSHSL current protocol would require 192 teams or something a lot closer than what there is currently.

They would have to adopt the football rule and at this time there may not be enough evidence to support that.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by elliott70 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:34 pm

If they were to do 3 classes these schools would be moved to a AAA class (with possible adjustments).
School Enrollment
Wayzata High School 3276
Minnetonka High School 3198
Eden Prairie High School 2732
Blaine High School 2652
Prior Lake High School 2648
Stillwater Area High School 2636
Edina High School 2628
Champlin Park High School 2474
Shakopee High School 2281
Rosemount High School 2271
Maple Grove High School 2218
White Bear Lake Area High School 2105
Eastview High School 2085
Farmington High School 2082
Burnsville High School 2079
Anoka High School 2037
St. Michael-Albertville H.S. 1989
Roseville Area High School 1951
Centennial High School 1937
Eagan High School 1916
Woodbury High School 1864
Hopkins High School 1856
Forest Lake High School 1828
Coon Rapids High School 1775
East Ridge High School 1757
Osseo High School 1756
Buffalo High School 1720
Lakeville North High School 1716
Lakeville South High School 1711
Robbinsdale Armstrong High School 1703
Mounds View High School 1693
Brainerd High School 1685

The remaining 122 schools would be split in to AA A in some manner based on size with some move ups.

Goose21
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Goose21 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:13 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:34 pm
If they were to do 3 classes these schools would be moved to a AAA class (with possible adjustments).
School Enrollment
Wayzata High School 3276
Minnetonka High School 3198
Eden Prairie High School 2732
Blaine High School 2652
Prior Lake High School 2648
Stillwater Area High School 2636
Edina High School 2628
Champlin Park High School 2474
Shakopee High School 2281
Rosemount High School 2271
Maple Grove High School 2218
White Bear Lake Area High School 2105
Eastview High School 2085
Farmington High School 2082
Burnsville High School 2079
Anoka High School 2037
St. Michael-Albertville H.S. 1989
Roseville Area High School 1951
Centennial High School 1937
Eagan High School 1916
Woodbury High School 1864
Hopkins High School 1856
Forest Lake High School 1828
Coon Rapids High School 1775
East Ridge High School 1757
Osseo High School 1756
Buffalo High School 1720
Lakeville North High School 1716
Lakeville South High School 1711
Robbinsdale Armstrong High School 1703
Mounds View High School 1693
Brainerd High School 1685

The remaining 122 schools would be split in to AA A in some manner based on size with some move ups.
Looks good, with a few move-ups or down. How would A and AA look?
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

elliott70
Posts: 13707
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by elliott70 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:19 pm

AA 64 teams

Park High School 1685
Minneapolis Southwest High School 1635
Andover High School 1625
Elk River High School 1602
Moorhead High School 1591
Chanhassen High School 1585
Park Center High School 1539
Rochester Mayo High School 1532
Bloomington Jefferson High School 1521
Rogers High School 1511
Irondale High School 1490
Spring Lake Park High School 1489
St. Paul Central High School 1465 *****
Rochester John Marshall 1463

Apple Valley High School 1385
Minneapolis Washburn High School 1385 *****
Chaska High School 1370
Hastings High School 1369
Rochester Century High School 1365
Duluth East High School 1363
Minneapolis South High School 1359 *****
Tartan High School 1352
St. Paul Harding High School 1350 *****
Owatonna High School 1328
North High School 1318 *****
Cambridge-Isanti High School 1316
Robbinsdale Cooper High School 1292 *****
New Prague High School 1260
St. Louis Park High School 1255
Northfield High School 1252
Henry Sibley High School 1238
St. Francis High School 1234
Waconia High School 1228
Sauk Rapids-Rice High School 1226
Bemidji High School 1216
St. Cloud Tech High School 1205 ******
Sartell-Saint Stephen High School 1185
Bloomington Kennedy High School 1184
Alexandria Area High School 1157
Mahtomedi High School 1145
St. Cloud Apollo High School 1126 *****
Monticello High School 1113
Mankato West High School 1101
Austin High School 1096
St. Paul Highland Park 1086
Chisago Lakes High School 1035
Cretin-Derham Hall High School 1031
Grand Rapids High School 1006
Willmar High School 1005
St. Paul Como Park H.S. 971
Simley High School 963
Faribault High School 958
Mankato East High School 956
Orono High School 936
St. Thomas Academy 920
Benilde-St. Margaret's School 901
St. Paul Johnson High School 901
Princeton High School 900
Hutchinson High School 867
Albert Lea High School 839
Becker High School 836 *****

Winona High School 830
Big Lake High School 821 *****
Richfield High School 813 *****
Detroit Lakes High School 775

Did not go through and check if all these schools play hockey. *****some of these are combined
Last edited by elliott70 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kniven
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: Duluth area

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:21 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:06 am
"I am continually baffled that Class A teams are allowed to play an essentially Class AA schedule all year then drop down to A for playoffs. To me, that’s where we need to focus the crosshairs to force change. Limit the number of games Class A can play AA and go from there."


This is one simple rule change that would make the most difference.
I totally agree. They get the best of both worlds.
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

elliott70
Posts: 13707
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by elliott70 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:24 pm

And single A - roughly 58 schools

Minneapolis Roosevelt High School 775 *****
Delano High School 772
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. 768 *****
North Branch High School 767
South Saint Paul High School 766
DeLaSalle High School 748 *****
Columbia Heights High School 741 *****
St. Paul Washington Technology Magnet 731 *****
Worthington High School 726
Marshall High School 722
Duluth Denfeld High School 716
Mound Westonka High School 714
Rocori High School 713 *****
Minneapolis Edison High School 704 *****
Totino-Grace High School 697
Fridley High School 683 *****
Red Wing High School 678
Visitation High School 666 *****
Academy of Holy Angels 655
Little Falls High School 650
Zimmerman High School 646 *****
Hill-Murray School 639
Hermantown High School 630
Cloquet High School 624 *****
Kasson-Mantorville High Schoo l 620 ******
St. Anthony Village High School 620 *****
Byron High School 597 *****
St. Peter High School 593 *****
New Ulm High School 587
Hibbing High School 583
Jordan High School 570 ******
Dassel-Cokato High School 568 *****
Waseca High School 566
Foley High School 556 *****
Fergus Falls High School 553
Pequot Lakes High School 535 *****
Blake School (The) 530
East Grand Forks High School 522
Stewartville High School 520 *****
Thief River Falls High School 518
Annandale High School 497 *****
Albany High School 487 *****
Breck School 486

St. Paul Humboldt High School 483 *****
Tri-City United High School 483 *****
Glencoe-Silver Lake High School 479 *****
Proctor High School 476
Fairmont High School 464
Rockford High School 462 *****
Shattuck-Saint Mary's 458 ******
St. Paul Conservatory for Performing Arts 447 *****
Melrose Area High School 442 *****
Milaca High School 439 *****
Pine City High School 439
Belle Plaine High School 437 *****
Watertown-Mayer High School 435 *****
Rochester Lourdes High School 431
Litchfield High School 426
Virginia High School 423
St. Paul Academy and Summit School 419
Mora High School 417
Perham High School 410 *****
Plainview-Elgin-Millville High School 409 *****
St. Cloud Cathedral High School 409
New London-Spicer High School 405 *****
St. Croix Lutheran Academy 402 *****
BlueSky Charter School 400 *****
Holy Family Catholic High School 400
Hmong College Prep Academy 387 ****
Brooklyn Center High School 382 *****
Dilworth-Glyndon-Felton H.S. 382 *****
Spectrum High School 381 *****
Esko High School 367 *****
Lake City High School 365 *****
Southwest Christian 357 *****
Luverne High School 354
La Crescent- Hokah High School 353
St. Croix Preparatory Academy 353 *****
Pine Island High School 352 *****
Cannon Falls High School 348 *****
Pierz High School 341 *****
Roseau High School 337
Two Harbors High School 337 *****
Minnehaha Academy 333 *****
Montevideo High School 330 *****
Cristo Rey Jesuit High School 329 *****
Park Rapids Area High School 329
Sauk Centre High School 321
Zumbrota-Mazeppa High School 320 *****
Aitkin High School 315 *****

Jackson County Central High School 315 *****
Minnewaska Area H.S. 315 *****
Sibley East High School 314 *****
Providence Academy 313 *****
Triton High School 309 *****
Dover-Eyota High School 307

same for these *****
Minneapolis North Community H.S. 302
Norwood-Young America High School 300
Holdingford High School 299
LeSueur-Henderson High School 294
Hiawatha Collegiate High School 293
Maple Lake High School 293
Howard Lake-Waverly-Winsted H.S. 292
Staples-Motley High School 292

International Falls H.S. 290

same for these *****
Crosby-Ironton High School 289
Performing Institute of Minnesota Arts H.S. 285
Morris Area School 283
Concordia Academy-Roseville 282
Pipestone Area High School 282
Redwood Valley High School 282
Hawley High School 281
Paynesville Area High School 278

Warroad High School 275

Pillager High School 272

same for these *****
Blue Earth Area High School 269
St. Charles High School 265
Mesabi East High School 264
Nova Classical Academy 262
Windom Area High School 259
Eden Valley-Watkins High School 258

Marshall School, Duluth 258

same for these *****
Royalton High School 258
Math & Science Academy 257
Lewiston-Altura High School 256
Maple River High School 256
Maranatha Christian Academy 252
New Richland-H-E-G H.S. 251
St. Agnes High School 251

Greenway High School 250
Eveleth-Gilbert High School 248
Crookston High School 247

same for these *****
Menahga High School 246

Wadena-Deer Creek High School 241

2019-2020, 2020-2021 MSHSL School Enrollments - By Enrollment
Medford High School 240
Metro Schools College Prep 240
Barnesville High School 238

Twin Cities Academy High School 237
Caledonia High School 235
Cotter High School 233
St. James High School 233
Frazee High School 232
Great River School 229
Osakis High School 229
Rush City High School 227
Long Prairie-Grey Eagle H.S. 226
Chatfield High School 225
Lake Crystal-Wellcome Memorial 224
Mounds Park Academy 224
Bagley High School 223
Kimball Area High School 218
Atwater-Cosmos-Grove City H.S. 217
New Life Academy of Woodbury 216
Tracy-Milroy-Balaton High School 215
Kenyon-Wanamingo High School 213
Pelican Rapids High School 209
Minnesota Valley Lutheran 206
Benson High School 205
Janesville-Waldorf-Pemberton H.S. 205
Open World Learning 204
Breckenridge High School 203
G-F-W High School 203
Goodhue High School 203
Academy for Sciences & Agriculture 202
Eagle Ridge Academy 201
Minnesota Online High School 200
Hinckley-Finlayson High School 199
North Lakes Academy 199
Barnum High School 198
Murray County Central High School 197
PACT Charter School 196
Walker-Hackensack-Akeley H.S. 194
Hayfield High School 191
Martin County West High School 190
Ada-Borup High School 189
Lake Park-Audubon 189
Minneota High School 189
Red Lake High School 189
Blooming Prairie High School 188
Trinity School at River Ridge 186
West Central Area School 186
Lac qui Parle Valley High School 184
Mayer Lutheran High School 184
Moose Lake High School 184

Rushford-Peterson High School 184
B O L D High School 183
Belgrade-Brooten-Elrosa H.S. 183
Harbor City International School 183
Pine River-Backus High School 183
Waterville-Elysian-Morristown H.S. 183
Braham High School 182
High School for Recording Arts 181
New York Mills High School 181
Chisholm High School 180
North Woods High School 179
United South Central High School 179
Bethlehem Academy 178
St. Clair High School 178
Canby High School 174
Cass Lake-Bena High School 174
Trio Wolf Creek Distance Learning Charter School 173
Yellow Medicine East H.S. 172
Community of Peace Academy 171
Fosston High School 171
Deer River High School 170
Lakeview High School 170
Randolph High School 170
FAIR School 168
Cleveland High School 165
Kerkhoven-Murdock-Sunburg H.S. 162
East Central High School 161
St. John's Prep 161
Hillcrest Lutheran Academy 160
Parkers Prairie High School 160
Adrian High School 158
Russell-Tyler-Ruthton High School 155
Underwood High School 155
Blackduck High School 154
Dawson-Boyd High School 153
Kingsland High School 153
Legacy Christian Academy 153
Cook County High School 152
Creative Arts High School 152
Wabasha-Kellogg High School 152
Wabasso High School 151
Avalon School 150
Fillmore Central High School 149
South Ridge High School 149
Prairie Seeds Academy 148
Browerville High School 147
Chesterton Academy - Edina 147

Verndale High School 146
Nevis High School 145
Ortonville High School 145
Springfield High School 143
Mountain Lake High School 142
Madelia High School 141
Alden-Conger High School 140
West Lutheran High School 140
Ogilvie High School 139
Sleepy Eye High School 139
Renville County West High School 138
Cedar Mountain High School 137

Ely High School 137

Did not list the smaller schools.
***** either do not play or play with a co-op

kniven
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: Duluth area

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:39 pm

Let’s do this “State of Hockey”. And you can only play the teams in your class 👍
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

ted2you
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Location: Chaska

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by ted2you » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:47 pm

EGF is not exactly a fair comparison. For a player to transfer from ND the family must follow transfer rules, in Panzers case the family moved physically to EGF. How often do you think that's going to happen? It was my understanding the Panzer relocated not because you was unhappy with Grand Forks hockey; but it was a lack of competition in North Dakota hockey. The Grand Forks Central team he would have played this year was unbeaten last year, it was simply a matter of playing on a winning team he could have stayed there. But it was the weakness of North Dakota hockey. How good is it for the development of your son if half your games finishing running time? Regardless of the families motives, the family followed the rules and EGF had no option but roster him and play him.

Joe2015
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Joe2015 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:59 am

Section 8 guy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:12 pm
I like the relegation concept.....but 1 title moves you up for 4 years is too harsh. I could see two titles in 4 years moves you up for two or three. But I think a system requiring a bit more sustained success than 1 season would be better.
It doesnt have to be for four years.........I just figured thats what the MSHSL would choose, as that is how often they do major section realignments.

And lets look at what the landscape would look like if that rule was in place. Hermantown, Cathedral, and Orono would be forced up to Class AA right now, with East Grand Forks being eligible to come back down. If that were the case, the Class A field would be very watered down. However, that is kind of point. That would make Denfeld the favorite in 7A and maybe Little Falls or Alexandria the favorite in 6A. 2A would be wide open with no Orono. This would definitely open up the Class A to some new faces.

And on the on the Class AA side, you would have H-town and Cathedral, while probably not being the favorite in their sections, would definitely be contenders.

ndirishfighting
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 12:34 pm
Location: MN

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by ndirishfighting » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:50 am

I like the three class system!!!

You play 25 regular scheduled games. You have to play each section opponent at least once, each team in your conference once, so that may have you playing a team twice at this point. The rest is for rivalry games or your allotted games to play up or down to get you to 25.

If you win state two years in a row you move up for two-four years depending on the MSHSL🤪.

If your a public school and recruit you move up a division!
All private schools are in the same division!
They’re kids NOT PROFESSIONALS
It’s just a game!

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 640
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by SCBlueLiner » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:04 am

ted2you wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:47 pm
EGF is not exactly a fair comparison. For a player to transfer from ND the family must follow transfer rules, in Panzers case the family moved physically to EGF. How often do you think that's going to happen? It was my understanding the Panzer relocated not because you was unhappy with Grand Forks hockey; but it was a lack of competition in North Dakota hockey. The Grand Forks Central team he would have played this year was unbeaten last year, it was simply a matter of playing on a winning team he could have stayed there. But it was the weakness of North Dakota hockey. How good is it for the development of your son if half your games finishing running time? Regardless of the families motives, the family followed the rules and EGF had no option but roster him and play him.
It was my understanding that moving across the river from GF to EGF for hockey is very rare. GF Youth Hockey and the GF HS teams Central and Red River are all solid programs with good histories. Maybe that is changing as there have been a few GF players leave town recently for AAA and Juniors and the HS programs are having down years (for them) as they are being challenged this year by Fargo Davies and Fargo South/Shandley (GF schools still on top in the standings though).

Deathblow
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:26 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Deathblow » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:55 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:04 am
ted2you wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:47 pm
EGF is not exactly a fair comparison. For a player to transfer from ND the family must follow transfer rules, in Panzers case the family moved physically to EGF. How often do you think that's going to happen? It was my understanding the Panzer relocated not because you was unhappy with Grand Forks hockey; but it was a lack of competition in North Dakota hockey. The Grand Forks Central team he would have played this year was unbeaten last year, it was simply a matter of playing on a winning team he could have stayed there. But it was the weakness of North Dakota hockey. How good is it for the development of your son if half your games finishing running time? Regardless of the families motives, the family followed the rules and EGF had no option but roster him and play him.
It was my understanding that moving across the river from GF to EGF for hockey is very rare. GF Youth Hockey and the GF HS teams Central and Red River are all solid programs with good histories. Maybe that is changing as there have been a few GF players leave town recently for AAA and Juniors and the HS programs are having down years (for them) as they are being challenged this year by Fargo Davies and Fargo South/Shandley (GF schools still on top in the standings though).
I can only think of three instances over the past ten years ,or so, that kids have moved over to EGF, from Central, or Red River. Don't know much about the years before, but I'd guess it happens very infrequently.

rainier2
Posts: 498
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by rainier2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:57 am

ted2you wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:47 pm
EGF is not exactly a fair comparison. For a player to transfer from ND the family must follow transfer rules, in Panzers case the family moved physically to EGF. How often do you think that's going to happen? It was my understanding the Panzer relocated not because you was unhappy with Grand Forks hockey; but it was a lack of competition in North Dakota hockey. The Grand Forks Central team he would have played this year was unbeaten last year, it was simply a matter of playing on a winning team he could have stayed there. But it was the weakness of North Dakota hockey. How good is it for the development of your son if half your games finishing running time? Regardless of the families motives, the family followed the rules and EGF had no option but roster him and play him.
But "moving" from GF to EGF isn't really moving. Yes, a state line (river) was crossed, but what really changed about this family's daily life? Same dentist, same church, same friends and family, same job, same favorite restaurants, etc. Generally speaking, this is the huge advantage that Class A teams in metro areas have. For a TRF, LF, or IF to "attract" talent from somewhere else, the family's life is pretty much turned upside down and they have to make a complete change. This is a daunting barrier that puts rural programs at a tremendous disadvantage.

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Puck8 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:23 pm

ndirishfighting wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:50 am
I like the three class system!!!

You play 25 regular scheduled games. You have to play each section opponent at least once, each team in your conference once, so that may have you playing a team twice at this point. The rest is for rivalry games or your allotted games to play up or down to get you to 25.

If you win state two years in a row you move up for two-four years depending on the MSHSL🤪.

If your a public school and recruit you move up a division!
All private schools are in the same division!
My feeling:
-Seasons should be 28-30 games, for starters :D .
-I agree that the focus should be more on section results than conference. Makes sense.
-Relegation is fine if no other changes are going to be made to either compel or force teams to move up.
-3 classes: Not in favor. It doesn’t solve the core issues and if anything, it’s just going to double them if no other changes are made. For example: Will A and AA teams be allowed to play up a class during reg season then back down for playoffs? No one outside of the schools that make it, will pay any attention to a A tourney. Expanding the number of classes is the wrong way to solve the concerns, IMO.
-Relegating all private schools to one division won’t solve the core issues, either. You will still have teams wanting to play across classes and you have essentially created a 4th Class. Be careful what you ask for; with the strength of so many privates, you may find that AAA and privates are the only classes anyone pays attention to (assuming you implement a 3rd class simultaneously).

Stop or limit the amount of AA games a single A team can play. Institute a relegation rule like you’ve mentioned, and then possibly consider a relegation threshold for section winners as well. If a team wins its section 5 years in a row, it’s probably time to move up. This would address the concern around teams that constantly win their section but stumble at State.

Goose21
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Goose21 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:34 pm

I would say that being a class A team near a "metro" area has some distinct advantages that go beyond player movement. Areas like Duluth, Fargo-Moorhead, Grand Forks-EGF, etc. are hockey hubs. Players have access to development that "satellite" programs can't match. I will use EGF as an example. This area has a great hockey culture nurtured by not only EGF, but also the GF programs and UND. Kids on either side of the river have access to AAA, Camps, Clinics, and leagues right in their own backyards. While other programs can offer even year-round ice it isn't quite the same. In addition to anything run out of the GF or EGF there is the Hockey Academy at the Ralph Engelstad Area with its year round camps, training, and tournaments. Grand Forks is also a hockey hub for North Dakota and Northwestern Minnesota, including the Northern Plains High School and Bantam leagues. These hockey hubs have an additional "iron sharpening iron" effect by bringing in the area's best talent to compete beside and against each other. Local access also means it is a lot easy for kids to play other sports and still take advantage of extra hockey opportunities. It is easier to be working on two sports if games, practices, camps, etc. are just across town instead of a hour or two drive (and all the travel expenses).
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

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