People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

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defense
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by defense » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:44 am

HHawks4Ever wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:00 am
warriors41 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 pm
Is this really such a big deal that it requires 10 separate threads every single season? It’s ridiculous. Rant time...

I’m willing to bet that for most people this isn’t about giving other small towns a chance. It’s purely about hating the top dog, which right now is Hermantown. I say that because I can remember when STA was dominant and people hated them too. Hermantown had a bunch of kids move there from other towns during the same time period, but people swore up and down that if STA just moved up, it would make everything better. And before STA, people said Breck should move up, and before that Warroad should make the move up. And before that, people complained about that they changed from a 1 class tournament at all.

And that’s what this is really about. People want to make the change to a de facto 1 class tournament by trying to come up with all these different rules that would require any good teams into AA hockey. Those days are over. They aren’t coming back.

I’m sure every single one of you would claim that you just want to see the best hockey possible. Yet, if teams just played in the class that enrollment would have them we’d have two great tournaments played by 12-14 teams that would be really fun to watch each year (allowing some sections will be weak every year and their champ might not all that good). But that’s not what people on this specific thread want. They want all the teams out of the way that prevent their town from winning. If Hermantown winning a championship again bothers you, why not ask STA or BSM to go back down to keep some of the mystery alive?

If every single quality A team is forced to move up than winning the A tournament means nothing at all. 30 years from now people from Bagley will be whining to Moose Lake to move up because they won 3 championships in a row. EGF should be forced to move up to AA? God what a ridiculous notion. One that people said wouldn’t happen a decade ago, they were just looking for the privates to be forced into AA.
I know I am about a month late but this is a really good post.
This has been my train of thought, so agreed 100 percent. Breck, Benilde, Warroad, STA, now Hermantown. Was Red Wing part of it years ago? What happened to Lourdes ???
STA is gone, now people have to complain about the Hawks. Before STA it was Marvin's Warriors... Hermantown takes extra ribbing be cause of their old coach and what he said, they also have had a higher level of success than some others, but it wont change if the Hawks go AA. Then it will be the next guy. Maybe back to Warroad?? IDK. I think Hermantown could and should do AA, but that is not the culture of their community obviously. Class A is not what it initially was either what with class A teams who initially played AA now in class A. Do ya want a class A to be interesting or not?? I thought the STA, H Town, EGF drama was great.
Wan to win class A? Learn to beat the best teams, bottom line. Arent able to beat them? Why not look at your own program and see what you can do to be better?? If your program is not elite(seems to be the zing word lately) no big deal, look at the successes that did happen this year. This is sports guys. I just hate this mentality that demands someone else to change in order to benefit me. Where has our personal integrity gone?
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Slap Shot
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Slap Shot » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:07 pm

HHawks4Ever wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:00 am
warriors41 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 pm
Is this really such a big deal that it requires 10 separate threads every single season? It’s ridiculous. Rant time...

I’m willing to bet that for most people this isn’t about giving other small towns a chance. It’s purely about hating the top dog, which right now is Hermantown. I say that because I can remember when STA was dominant and people hated them too. Hermantown had a bunch of kids move there from other towns during the same time period, but people swore up and down that if STA just moved up, it would make everything better. And before STA, people said Breck should move up, and before that Warroad should make the move up. And before that, people complained about that they changed from a 1 class tournament at all.

And that’s what this is really about. People want to make the change to a de facto 1 class tournament by trying to come up with all these different rules that would require any good teams into AA hockey. Those days are over. They aren’t coming back.

I’m sure every single one of you would claim that you just want to see the best hockey possible. Yet, if teams just played in the class that enrollment would have them we’d have two great tournaments played by 12-14 teams that would be really fun to watch each year (allowing some sections will be weak every year and their champ might not all that good). But that’s not what people on this specific thread want. They want all the teams out of the way that prevent their town from winning. If Hermantown winning a championship again bothers you, why not ask STA or BSM to go back down to keep some of the mystery alive?

If every single quality A team is forced to move up than winning the A tournament means nothing at all. 30 years from now people from Bagley will be whining to Moose Lake to move up because they won 3 championships in a row. EGF should be forced to move up to AA? God what a ridiculous notion. One that people said wouldn’t happen a decade ago, they were just looking for the privates to be forced into AA.
I know I am about a month late but this is a really good post.
Great if you ignore the reason for complaints. If Hermantown didn't actively draw in several kids per year from other programs the "hate" would be far less severe.

Also STA moved up as have others.

BodyShots
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by BodyShots » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:24 pm

When AA teams stop playing A teams (or aren't allowed to plan A teams), this whole issue will be resolved.

defense
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by defense » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:21 pm

BodyShots wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:24 pm
When AA teams stop playing A teams (or aren't allowed to plan A teams), this whole issue will be resolved.
Is this train of thought for real??
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MWS coach
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by MWS coach » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:38 pm

BodyShots wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:24 pm
When AA teams stop playing A teams (or aren't allowed to plan A teams), this whole issue will be resolved.
It always befuddles me when people think this is the answer public dismay with said top A team. While it very well may fix that issue and they might decide to move up, it creates another layer of negative consequences if you think it thru.
Roseau can't play Warroad
Grand Rapids can't play Greenway
Armstrong Cooper has to move out of the NW Suburban Conference because they can't play AA team
A program like Coon Rapids can't play any A teams, which they compete better with in most years.. (Sorry CR, but you are the poster child that enrollment size doesn't necessarily put a team in the right level) :D
EGF, TRF can't play Moorhead
You get my point.

Changing the rules isn't going to solve anything, rule changes only shift the issues. A can't play AA, after winning X #of times at A you have to move up (next classes may not be near as strong etc.)
Two things that may change the current situation
A certain team decides to challenge themselves and move to AA
MNSHSL decides to go back to one class (in whatever form)

Anything else just moves the cheese and creates different issues.
AA teams deciding not to play certain A teams maybe would help, but again see above scenarios'. If I was a HS coach and I can get a good match up in non-conference game, why would I say no? To police another organization? I don't care if they are A or AA. I get DE doing it due to proximity and history, but not the same for other coaches and absent collusion of many coaches, not sure how a one off coach or two taking a stand would really make any difference.

Let's face the facts, if you build a winning team, others will come. It happens at A, AA and certainly to an even greater extent at AAA during the summer during youth. It is the nature of the landscape in MN hockey. If you look at a broader view and look outside of MN, it is even more rampant, thus I would contend is part of the hockey landscape. Or with looking even broader, isn't that the nature of our society? Work, sports, life in general?

The other thing is to build your program to compete with Goliath. How awesome was it last year when Greenway pulled the upset and made it to state? Nope, doesn't happen very often, but when it does oh how sweet it is. Same can be said for many programs. Just look at the AA state tournament and the "trends" of teams that are very similar year after year. This is evidenced by the friendly disdain for the cake eaters.... why because they are successful.

Don't miss-understand, I would like nothing better then to see said team move to AA, why because they can compete and it would be a positive for A hockey. In addition, I do feel for the range teams that have to face Goliath every year and do understand that it effects the growth of hockey in that part of the state. That said......

It ain't gonna change Martha, so you need to control what you can control and not worry about anything else!!! :lol:

zooomx
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by zooomx » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:32 pm

MWS coach wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:38 pm
BodyShots wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:24 pm
When AA teams stop playing A teams (or aren't allowed to plan A teams), this whole issue will be resolved.
It always befuddles me when people think this is the answer public dismay with said top A team. While it very well may fix that issue and they might decide to move up, it creates another layer of negative consequences if you think it thru.
Roseau can't play Warroad
Grand Rapids can't play Greenway
Armstrong Cooper has to move out of the NW Suburban Conference because they can't play AA team
A program like Coon Rapids can't play any A teams, which they compete better with in most years.. (Sorry CR, but you are the poster child that enrollment size doesn't necessarily put a team in the right level) :D
EGF, TRF can't play Moorhead
You get my point.

Changing the rules isn't going to solve anything, rule changes only shift the issues. A can't play AA, after winning X #of times at A you have to move up (next classes may not be near as strong etc.)
Two things that may change the current situation
A certain team decides to challenge themselves and move to AA
MNSHSL decides to go back to one class (in whatever form)

Anything else just moves the cheese and creates different issues.
AA teams deciding not to play certain A teams maybe would help, but again see above scenarios'. If I was a HS coach and I can get a good match up in non-conference game, why would I say no? To police another organization? I don't care if they are A or AA. I get DE doing it due to proximity and history, but not the same for other coaches and absent collusion of many coaches, not sure how a one off coach or two taking a stand would really make any difference.

Let's face the facts, if you build a winning team, others will come. It happens at A, AA and certainly to an even greater extent at AAA during the summer during youth. It is the nature of the landscape in MN hockey. If you look at a broader view and look outside of MN, it is even more rampant, thus I would contend is part of the hockey landscape. Or with looking even broader, isn't that the nature of our society? Work, sports, life in general?

The other thing is to build your program to compete with Goliath. How awesome was it last year when Greenway pulled the upset and made it to state? Nope, doesn't happen very often, but when it does oh how sweet it is. Same can be said for many programs. Just look at the AA state tournament and the "trends" of teams that are very similar year after year. This is evidenced by the friendly disdain for the cake eaters.... why because they are successful.

Don't miss-understand, I would like nothing better then to see said team move to AA, why because they can compete and it would be a positive for A hockey. In addition, I do feel for the range teams that have to face Goliath every year and do understand that it effects the growth of hockey in that part of the state. That said......

It ain't gonna change Martha, so you need to control what you can control and not worry about anything else!!! :lol:
I just look at it this way. Better for people to vent on a forum like this than to get confrontational at the rink.

So many of your comments match my feelings. Alexandria will always have the semifinal upset a couple of years ago. Greenway will always have the section finals last year. It is something special when David slays Goliath.

I also agree that yeah, said team should move up, but I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

rainier2
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by rainier2 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:38 pm

MWS coach wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:38 pm
BodyShots wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:24 pm
When AA teams stop playing A teams (or aren't allowed to plan A teams), this whole issue will be resolved.
It always befuddles me when people think this is the answer public dismay with said top A team. While it very well may fix that issue and they might decide to move up, it creates another layer of negative consequences if you think it thru.
Roseau can't play Warroad
Grand Rapids can't play Greenway
Armstrong Cooper has to move out of the NW Suburban Conference because they can't play AA team
A program like Coon Rapids can't play any A teams, which they compete better with in most years.. (Sorry CR, but you are the poster child that enrollment size doesn't necessarily put a team in the right level) :D
EGF, TRF can't play Moorhead
You get my point.

Changing the rules isn't going to solve anything, rule changes only shift the issues. A can't play AA, after winning X #of times at A you have to move up (next classes may not be near as strong etc.)
Two things that may change the current situation
A certain team decides to challenge themselves and move to AA
MNSHSL decides to go back to one class (in whatever form)

Anything else just moves the cheese and creates different issues.
AA teams deciding not to play certain A teams maybe would help, but again see above scenarios'. If I was a HS coach and I can get a good match up in non-conference game, why would I say no? To police another organization? I don't care if they are A or AA. I get DE doing it due to proximity and history, but not the same for other coaches and absent collusion of many coaches, not sure how a one off coach or two taking a stand would really make any difference.

Let's face the facts, if you build a winning team, others will come. It happens at A, AA and certainly to an even greater extent at AAA during the summer during youth. It is the nature of the landscape in MN hockey. If you look at a broader view and look outside of MN, it is even more rampant, thus I would contend is part of the hockey landscape. Or with looking even broader, isn't that the nature of our society? Work, sports, life in general?

The other thing is to build your program to compete with Goliath. How awesome was it last year when Greenway pulled the upset and made it to state? Nope, doesn't happen very often, but when it does oh how sweet it is. Same can be said for many programs. Just look at the AA state tournament and the "trends" of teams that are very similar year after year. This is evidenced by the friendly disdain for the cake eaters.... why because they are successful.

Don't miss-understand, I would like nothing better then to see said team move to AA, why because they can compete and it would be a positive for A hockey. In addition, I do feel for the range teams that have to face Goliath every year and do understand that it effects the growth of hockey in that part of the state. That said......

It ain't gonna change Martha, so you need to control what you can control and not worry about anything else!!! :lol:
Greenway's run, as awesome as it was, only happened because two top six forwards and a difference-making goalie transferred there before the season began. It was sweet, but it would have been sweeter if if had all actually been Greenway kids. It's sad that the only way Goliath can ever be beaten is if a community team can get transfers.

kniven
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm

I think the days of programs with their own kiddos are long gone. It’s 2020 and so many have outside kids move in. The best teams in the state consistently the last 20 years have consistent move in/transfers. I don’t see CEC ever being a destination for kids looking for a team. Duluth East, Hermantown, and Grand Rapids have the market cornered up north.
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Hunters1993
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Hunters1993 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:56 pm

Watch and see. That goalie who left CEC , he will show up in Hermantown next year.......
#KEEPTHEKIDSINTHECLASSROOM

goldy313
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by goldy313 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:43 pm

I think Hermantown gets so much grief because for years Plante railed on St. Thomas, now that they have essentially become the new St. Thomas, (getting kids to show up just for high school hockey)the whole Plante rants seem quite a bit hypocritical.

What was once good theater has become a running commentary on what some see as a pox on high school sports. I think what for years was an accepted practice of Catholic kids from Catholic K-8 schools enrolling at a Hill-Murray or Cretin turned into public school kids from Lakeville showing up at STA because of hockey and a dislike of the local coach. Plante had a point then. Now certain public schools are getting the kids from other public schools purely due to hockey.

What Hermantown had rallied against for years they have now become.

Duckguy13
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Duckguy13 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:11 pm

=D> =D>

They and Cathedral are the reason for my original post, I'm sorry I miss worded a few things but a fact is a fact...recruiting at the A level needs to force those teams to AA! Whether recruited or not, people/players move to play places specifically for hockey, you accept them, then move to AA.

Section 8 guy
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Section 8 guy » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:18 pm

kniven wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm
I think the days of programs with their own kiddos are long gone.
Generally true........but not entirely. The entire roster of one of this years AA tourney teams played Mini Mites together and went to kindergarten together except for one third line player. And he played in that community as a first year squirt. It can be done.

goldy313
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by goldy313 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:32 pm

I don’t think it is even generally true. Of the 20+ teams in 1A/AA there is some movement in Lakeville and Farmington, this year Dodge County picked up some kids but that is basically it. Even in years past Lourdes would pick up a kid, maybe Mayo or Century or Owatonna, but that is rare.

Most of the 140+ teams are home grown I would bet. Of course it is the very successful teams who draw the most attention but I don’t think East or Hutch relies on transfers.

I don’t know what the answer is but it is likely the MSHSL changes back to counting all schools in a co-op full enrollment, I don’t see why Dodge County gets penalized and moved to AA for allowing one kid from Blooming Prairie to play hockey while Hermantown can pick up open enrollment kids for hockey and still be in class A

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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:42 pm

Hunters1993 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:56 pm
Watch and see. That goalie who left CEC , he will show up in Hermantown next year.......
He was a senior
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MWS coach
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by MWS coach » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:03 am

kniven wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm
I think the days of programs with their own kiddos are long gone. It’s 2020 and so many have outside kids move in. The best teams in the state consistently the last 20 years have consistent move in/transfers. I don’t see CEC ever being a destination for kids looking for a team. Duluth East, Hermantown, and Grand Rapids have the market cornered up north.
What? Kniven arguably your best player is from Hibbing???

kniven
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:32 am

MWS coach wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:03 am
kniven wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm
I think the days of programs with their own kiddos are long gone. It’s 2020 and so many have outside kids move in. The best teams in the state consistently the last 20 years have consistent move in/transfers. I don’t see CEC ever being a destination for kids looking for a team. Duluth East, Hermantown, and Grand Rapids have the market cornered up north.
What? Kniven arguably your best player is from Hibbing???
Since I’ve been around, we’ve had 2 transfers that have been impact players. The current Hibbing kid and a Duluth East kid back in 2010-2011. That’s about it...
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

defense
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by defense » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:29 pm

kniven wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm
I think the days of programs with their own kiddos are long gone. It’s 2020 and so many have outside kids move in. The best teams in the state consistently the last 20 years have consistent move in/transfers. I don’t see CEC ever being a destination for kids looking for a team. Duluth East, Hermantown, and Grand Rapids have the market cornered up north.
While this may be true some places. It's only some, definitely not even a minority.. less than that.
Cloquet can certainly compete with their own kids. Same as most everyone else.
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Thunderstruck
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Thunderstruck » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:33 pm

What if there was no moving up a class, what if all schools had to play where their enrollment dictates. That would put CEC and Grand Rapids in 7A. Then some of the kids(or should I say parents) couldn't just pick up and move to H-town aka Lake Superior Stars high school team for a 99.8% chance of going to state tournament. This would make 7A more competitive and maybe it wouldn't be as much of a guaranteed trip to the x. Might of been Rapids this year. Other sports don't have move ups. What do you guys think. 8A Roseau, Warroad EGF section would be awesome also

rainier2
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by rainier2 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:35 pm

kniven wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:32 am
MWS coach wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:03 am
kniven wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm
I think the days of programs with their own kiddos are long gone. It’s 2020 and so many have outside kids move in. The best teams in the state consistently the last 20 years have consistent move in/transfers. I don’t see CEC ever being a destination for kids looking for a team. Duluth East, Hermantown, and Grand Rapids have the market cornered up north.
What? Kniven arguably your best player is from Hibbing???
Since I’ve been around, we’ve had 2 transfers that have been impact players. The current Hibbing kid and a Duluth East kid back in 2010-2011. That’s about it...
What about Rasmussen? Left Little Falls as an 8th grader, I believe.

northwoods oldtimer
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:47 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:35 pm
kniven wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:32 am
MWS coach wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:03 am


What? Kniven arguably your best player is from Hibbing???
Since I’ve been around, we’ve had 2 transfers that have been impact players. The current Hibbing kid and a Duluth East kid back in 2010-2011. That’s about it...
What about Rasmussen? Left Little Falls as an 8th grader, I believe.
#-o

defense
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by defense » Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:39 pm

Thunderstruck wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:33 pm
What if there was no moving up a class, what if all schools had to play where their enrollment dictates. That would put CEC and Grand Rapids in 7A. Then some of the kids(or should I say parents) couldn't just pick up and move to H-town aka Lake Superior Stars high school team for a 99.8% chance of going to state tournament. This would make 7A more competitive and maybe it wouldn't be as much of a guaranteed trip to the x. Might of been Rapids this year. Other sports don't have move ups. What do you guys think. 8A Roseau, Warroad EGF section would be awesome also
They did that before. Roseau didnt win it. Then opted up and won 8aa instead.
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