Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

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east hockey
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Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by east hockey » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:21 pm

We'll have someone winning the Class A title for their first time after Gentry Academy defeated East Grand Forks earlier in the day.

Thoughts on this one? My initial guess is Dodge County by three.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by TheNightman » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:22 pm

Little Falls 4-3.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Stang5280 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:29 pm

TheNightman wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:22 pm
Little Falls 4-3.
That would be my guess as well. With the two teams having played earlier in the season, I think the Flyers learned their lesson on how to contain Lamb and will have a better game plan. LF also brings superior depth and the best goalie in the Class A bracket.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Sparlimb » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:16 pm

Good start for ChrisK's Little Falls team. This should be an entertaining one...

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Nostalgic Nerd » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:01 pm

Great pipe by Lamb. I'll be cheering for them the rest of the way. Either way, probably a brutal final vs Gentry.
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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Stang5280 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:03 pm

Good response by DC after weathering the early storm early in the 2nd. That first goal was a softy that I’m sure Couture would like back, but that second one was a ridiculous snipe from Lamb.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Sparlimb » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:34 pm

Refs sure stood out in this one. I have no horse in the race and its been awful.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by defense » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:35 pm

I am just entertained by the game so no dog in the fight, but it really seems like there is a 2 goal swing on tough tough calls against against Little Falls

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Stang5280 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:38 pm

Also, the DC player carrying the puck into the zone briefly lost control and was offside. Basically a carbon copy of the UMD disallowed goal scenario last weekend.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by defense » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:48 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:38 pm
Also, the DC player carrying the puck into the zone briefly lost control and was offside. Basically a carbon copy of the UMD disallowed goal scenario last weekend.
They were saying the rule is if he had possession he was ok to pull it in... this must be a newish rule and I surely do not agree with it.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Stang5280 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:13 pm

defense wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:48 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:38 pm
Also, the DC player carrying the puck into the zone briefly lost control and was offside. Basically a carbon copy of the UMD disallowed goal scenario last weekend.
They were saying the rule is if he had possession he was ok to pull it in... this must be a newish rule and I surely do not agree with it.
That is indeed the rule, but from my eyes the player didn’t have control of the puck upon entering the zone ahead of it. He bobbled the puck and then regained possession behind his body. Oh well, I’m sure I blew worse calls often during my youth refereeing days.

USA Hockey Rule 630
(b) A player who is actually in possession and control of the puck prior to entering the attacking zone and precedes the puck into the zone is not considered “off-side.”

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by dherman8 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:27 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:13 pm
defense wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:48 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:38 pm
Also, the DC player carrying the puck into the zone briefly lost control and was offside. Basically a carbon copy of the UMD disallowed goal scenario last weekend.
They were saying the rule is if he had possession he was ok to pull it in... this must be a newish rule and I surely do not agree with it.
That is indeed the rule, but from my eyes the player didn’t have control of the puck upon entering the zone ahead of it. He bobbled the puck and then regained possession behind his body. Oh well, I’m sure I blew worse calls often during my youth refereeing days.

USA Hockey Rule 630
(b) A player who is actually in possession and control of the puck prior to entering the attacking zone and precedes the puck into the zone is not considered “off-side.”
I am with you. I guess I sort of feel robbed of what could have likely been a one goal game, or maybe even overtime. Always like those, especially when they go five overtimes deep. I missed the goal in the first period that was in question, but the crucial 3rd period calls played quite the role in the outcome. Don't want to blame the refs, but it would have been nice had the one with the quick whistle skated in and spent one or two seconds more in making sure the goalie had the puck covered before blowing the play dead. You can normally remedy not having a quick enough whistle, but you can't remedy much the moment the play is dead.

As for the offsides, I would agree with the discussion. Only thing I would change is Stang's comment of making worse calls. If you want me to agree with you about your blowing calls I will :lol: , but they even video reviewed that offsides and still stuck with the call on the ice. I am one that tends to lean toward sticking with the original call in any sport, but if you are going to delay the game and take a look, you might as well get it correct. Looked like there was conclusive evidence the player was completely in the offensive zone without complete possession of the puck.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm

Two takes that generally concur with above posters:

1. I generally side with the refs in most games, but with video review both of those calls still managed to be screwed up. Should have been 2-2 late into the 3rd which would have been a blast to see.

2. This is exactly what class A state tournament should be. Two teams who probably wouldn’t compete at the AA level but who fully deserved to be at this point (Dodge County would have had a hard time against Hermantown’s varsity, but that kind of makes my point). Would have loved to have this matchup tomorrow.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by rainier2 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:04 pm

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm
Two takes that generally concur with above posters:

1. I generally side with the refs in most games, but with video review both of those calls still managed to be screwed up. Should have been 2-2 late into the 3rd which would have been a blast to see.

2. This is exactly what class A state tournament should be. Two teams who probably wouldn’t compete at the AA level but who fully deserved to be at this point (Dodge County would have had a hard time against Hermantown’s varsity, but that kind of makes my point). Would have loved to have this matchup tomorrow.
This, 100%

Class A should be for teams that are not located in any of the state's metro areas. Sure, you might get a Warroad or some other team that might breeze to the title every so often, but there would overall be much more parity. It would beat watching a Duluth all-star team play a twin cities all-star team in the title game every year.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Stang5280 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:25 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:04 pm
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm
Two takes that generally concur with above posters:

1. I generally side with the refs in most games, but with video review both of those calls still managed to be screwed up. Should have been 2-2 late into the 3rd which would have been a blast to see.

2. This is exactly what class A state tournament should be. Two teams who probably wouldn’t compete at the AA level but who fully deserved to be at this point (Dodge County would have had a hard time against Hermantown’s varsity, but that kind of makes my point). Would have loved to have this matchup tomorrow.
This, 100%

Class A should be for teams that are not located in any of the state's metro areas. Sure, you might get a Warroad or some other team that might breeze to the title every so often, but there would overall be much more parity. It would beat watching a Duluth all-star team play a twin cities all-star team in the title game every year.
Not to rain on your parade (bad pun, I know), because I agree with your larger points, but your metro area policy would exclude Dodge County as well. While DC may have been comprised of small towns in the past, it’s now pretty much a conglomeration of suburbs around Rochester. DC is also very much AA by enrollment, and “pulled a Monticello” by petitioning down to A just as a special class was coming up through the system. Granted, they had basically no success in AA, but the timing was certainly not coincidental, and the girls’ team still plays in 1AA.

I’m not begrudging Dodge County or their success. I actually think they belong in Class A and hope they can at least be competitive tomorrow. But my point is that one-size-fits-all solutions like placing all teams from a metro area into AA are also imperfect.

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by rainier2 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:26 am

Stang5280 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:25 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:04 pm
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm
Two takes that generally concur with above posters:

1. I generally side with the refs in most games, but with video review both of those calls still managed to be screwed up. Should have been 2-2 late into the 3rd which would have been a blast to see.

2. This is exactly what class A state tournament should be. Two teams who probably wouldn’t compete at the AA level but who fully deserved to be at this point (Dodge County would have had a hard time against Hermantown’s varsity, but that kind of makes my point). Would have loved to have this matchup tomorrow.
This, 100%

Class A should be for teams that are not located in any of the state's metro areas. Sure, you might get a Warroad or some other team that might breeze to the title every so often, but there would overall be much more parity. It would beat watching a Duluth all-star team play a twin cities all-star team in the title game every year.
Not to rain on your parade (bad pun, I know), because I agree with your larger points, but your metro area policy would exclude Dodge County as well. While DC may have been comprised of small towns in the past, it’s now pretty much a conglomeration of suburbs around Rochester. DC is also very much AA by enrollment, and “pulled a Monticello” by petitioning down to A just as a special class was coming up through the system. Granted, they had basically no success in AA, but the timing was certainly not coincidental, and the girls’ team still plays in 1AA.

I’m not begrudging Dodge County or their success. I actually think they belong in Class A and hope they can at least be competitive tomorrow. But my point is that one-size-fits-all solutions like placing all teams from a metro area into AA are also imperfect.
Agreed, there is not perfect system, but there has to be something better than the current A set-up, which is dominated by city teams. The MSHSL needs to realize that, given the rampant player movement in cities, enrollment is no longer a meaningful measure of a school's ability to compete.

It's great to see DC have success, and my vision of Class A would allow for any city team to gain traction in A, but then be moved to AA for a period of time after a title has been won. Leverage the surrounding metro population to build a good program, and then move on, so there are no more STAs, Hermantowns, etc. stacking trophies when they could be competing in AA just fine.

The first 6 years of Class A, 5 of those 6 years there was a non-city champion, in the 21 years since then, there has been 1, Warroad, who has won it twice. Is this what the intention of Class A was?

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by Nostalgic Nerd » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:34 am

Way back in the day Warroad should've been the first team to move up. Now they're an example of what happens when the metros take over.
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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by rainier2 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:05 am

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:34 am
Way back in the day Warroad should've been the first team to move up. Now they're an example of what happens when the metros take over.
Not sure I could ever call for Warroad to move up, but I agree that they are the perfect example of the metro take over, as they are now trapped in Class A hell. Their top 5 teams this year and last year have one win at state to show for it, their great girls team just lost to Hermantown, and even their top ranked, undefeated bantam team was defeated at state by a city squad.

They do everything right (as far as I know), develop an amazing amount of talent from a small rural enrollment, yet have little to show for it for the last 17 years. Instead of being an example of what other rural programs could be, they're just another team that needs to think about what they could do to "attract" more talent. :roll:

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by north_bear » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:28 am

Sounds like we need to create separate classes for metro and non metro. Probably a separate state tournament too. Welcome to the pity party.

Joking aside I don't think the intent of class A was to help build small, "non metro" programs specifically. It's an avenue for any team that falls under the enrollment threshold to play for a state title. Not saying that's the best way to determine who's in and who's out but it seems to be reasonable without digging into the weeds.

So now the class A system is at fault when warroad can't make it out of their section? Nah.

There's a few teams in A that don't belong. But I'm not sure how you fix it. Change enrollment thresholds? All privates must be AA? X amount of success means you move up? A three class system would give more opportunities but it further waters down that bracket and I think creates a worse product in the end.
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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by rainier2 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:07 am

north_bear wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:28 am
Sounds like we need to create separate classes for metro and non metro. Probably a separate state tournament too. Welcome to the pity party.

Joking aside I don't think the intent of class A was to help build small, "non metro" programs specifically. It's an avenue for any team that falls under the enrollment threshold to play for a state title. Not saying that's the best way to determine who's in and who's out but it seems to be reasonable without digging into the weeds.

So now the class A system is at fault when warroad can't make it out of their section? Nah.

There's a few teams in A that don't belong. But I'm not sure how you fix it. Change enrollment thresholds? All privates must be AA? X amount of success means you move up? A three class system would give more opportunities but it further waters down that bracket and I think creates a worse product in the end.
I think the intent of Class A was to give smaller schools a chance at state-level success, and with all of the player movement that happens in cities, enrollment is no longer a meaningful measure of the size of the talent pool a school is drawing from. Gentry is proving this to an almost comical extreme.

As for Warroad, the main reason they didn't make it to state, IMO, is that EGF was able to add a D1 stud from across the river. Is that a luxury rural schools have? Should it be expected of all schools?

MSHSL should look at other factors other than just enrollment, IMO. It seems they do already as some teams are allowed to "play down". Perhaps they should re-visit how they classify A teams in hockey?

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Re: Class A semifinal--Little Falls vs Dodge County

Post by BodyShots » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:52 am

rainier2 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:07 am
north_bear wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:28 am
Sounds like we need to create separate classes for metro and non metro. Probably a separate state tournament too. Welcome to the pity party.

Joking aside I don't think the intent of class A was to help build small, "non metro" programs specifically. It's an avenue for any team that falls under the enrollment threshold to play for a state title. Not saying that's the best way to determine who's in and who's out but it seems to be reasonable without digging into the weeds.

So now the class A system is at fault when warroad can't make it out of their section? Nah.

There's a few teams in A that don't belong. But I'm not sure how you fix it. Change enrollment thresholds? All privates must be AA? X amount of success means you move up? A three class system would give more opportunities but it further waters down that bracket and I think creates a worse product in the end.
I think the intent of Class A was to give smaller schools a chance at state-level success, and with all of the player movement that happens in cities, enrollment is no longer a meaningful measure of the size of the talent pool a school is drawing from. Gentry is proving this to an almost comical extreme.

As for Warroad, the main reason they didn't make it to state, IMO, is that EGF was able to add a D1 stud from across the river. Is that a luxury rural schools have? Should it be expected of all schools?

MSHSL should look at other factors other than just enrollment, IMO. It seems they do already as some teams are allowed to "play down". Perhaps they should re-visit how they classify A teams in hockey?
A crazy thought, but how about any school with transfers in, has to play AA?

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