A Third Class

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BodyShots
Posts: 1921
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:44 am

A Third Class

Post by BodyShots » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:42 am

It's sad what's happening to high school sports. Same teams year after year.

HT in the North
HM in East Metro
Lakevilles in the South Metro
EP/Tonka in the West Metro

Granted HM has to because its a private, but the others have large, successful hockey association, and they are ruining HS hockey will all the recruiting BS forming super teams. Some people enjoy it, other don't. I'm old school and long for the days when different schools would make it to state. Whether it was Ramsey, Irondale, Centennial, or Columbia Heights, all schools had a chance to make it to state on any given year. Now the state tournament has become Groundhog day!

Like I mentioned in another post. It's time for a third class

Class A - for small schools with small youth associations
Class AA - For mid to large schools with mid to large youth associations (and want to play by the current MSHSL rules)
Class AAA - for any school that doesn't want to play by the rules and wants to win at all costs. (Schools get to opt in to this class)

Go ahead and bash away!

elliott70
Posts: 15425
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: A Third Class

Post by elliott70 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:41 pm

No bashing from me.

Over the last 5 years (40 teams) Single A has had 23 different teams with 3 sections being dominated by certain teams.
Namely:
Mahtomedi - 4 trips (would have likely been 5 without Gentry popping up for one year)
Hermantown 4 trips
Delano

AA has 18 different teams but dominated by one team in 5 sections - Hill 4, Lakeville South 4, Moorhead 4, Eden Prairie 4, and St Thomas 5.
Maple Grove has 3 in another section and Andover appears on the brink of dominance with the last two.
One section where it appears to be competitive.
But Wayzata, Minnetonka and Edina are always i n the thick of things.
So those ten teams could be etched into the tournament guide program.

So, yes, something should be done to give other teams a chance.

WestMetro
Posts: 3824
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: A Third Class

Post by WestMetro » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:16 pm

Will throw out some comments about the AA sections upcoming competitiveness , for feedback ...


1. Had hoped Rsmt would be moved in there . Or maybe PL and Bville . A bit curious why MSHSL didn’t see this need . As it stands , it’s going to still be a LV team . Unless we see Gentry like success out of reconstituted Winona or a new Roch charter team , and they also choose to move up

2. EP dominance is likely going to end in a few years . Tonka will become presumed favorite. But PL Chaska HF will all be capable of a section win, and Chan and Shak are rapidly building talent also

3. CDH will give STA immediate competition , and will be presumed section favorite next year . Rosemount has big enough numbers so should be able to be more and more competitive every year

4. Gentry will add some immediate competition to HM ,
and SW with enough numbers to always be competitive .

5. MG dominance will continue if they can hang on to kids , with both TG Cent capable of a talent surge and section upset.
Rogers is going to be interesting

6 . Usual 3 team parity. Blake ,SLP , AHA a ways back

7. Shame HT didn’t move up . They would have been presumed section favorite . There is a whole thread on this so won’t digress . As it stands , Andover numbers should keep them at No. 1, with GR not too far back , and rest of field in pursuit incl Blaine .

8 Going to be all Moorhead for a while . Not sure how far back the field might be but it’s significant . May be the least competitive of the 8 sections for the next 5 years?

O-townClown
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town

Re: A Third Class

Post by O-townClown » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 am

Very good recap, Westie.
Be kind. Rewind.

goldy313
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: A Third Class

Post by goldy313 » Sun May 16, 2021 12:46 am

Changing the way Co-ops are counted made Dodge County a 1AA team. No way around 1AA at that point. Luckily they didn’t move Hastings out as they have more in common with the 1AA schools than say Prior Lake or Burnsville.

If you are in 1AA and not in Rochester or Lakeville you had better have FFA!

You could make an argument to put Apple Valley, Eastview, and Rosemount into 1AA and moving Lakeville out but I don’t see that happening anytime soon. They pulled New Prague out after all.

blueblood
Posts: 2620
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 am

Re: A Third Class

Post by blueblood » Sun May 16, 2021 1:05 pm

Hastings, has more in common in 1AA schools than PL or Burnsville? [-X #-o

PL and Burnsville are SSC schools, same as the Lakevilles and Farmington, who are in 1AA and also SSC member schools.

BTW - New Prague was moved out of 2AA not 1AA. Prior to being placed in 2AA, they were in 1A.
Play Like a Champion Today

Hockeyxyz
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:48 pm

Re: A Third Class

Post by Hockeyxyz » Mon May 17, 2021 1:48 am

BodyShots wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:42 am
It's sad what's happening to high school sports. Same teams year after year.

HT in the North
HM in East Metro
Lakevilles in the South Metro
EP/Tonka in the West Metro

Granted HM has to because its a private, but the others have large, successful hockey association, and they are ruining HS hockey will all the recruiting BS forming super teams. Some people enjoy it, other don't. I'm old school and long for the days when different schools would make it to state. Whether it was Ramsey, Irondale, Centennial, or Columbia Heights, all schools had a chance to make it to state on any given year. Now the state tournament has become Groundhog day!

Like I mentioned in another post. It's time for a third class

Class A - for small schools with small youth associations
Class AA - For mid to large schools with mid to large youth associations (and want to play by the current MSHSL rules)
Class AAA - for any school that doesn't want to play by the rules and wants to win at all costs. (Schools get to opt in to this class)

Go ahead and bash away!
No bashing from me.
I think there should be another class called pre-juniors and recruit away in that league. High school hockey has been ruined by parents and coaches recruiting. It’s no longer authentic. It appears that MSHSL just looks the other way?

jg2112
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:36 am

Re: A Third Class

Post by jg2112 » Mon May 17, 2021 8:44 am

Hockeyxyz wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 1:48 am
BodyShots wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:42 am
It's sad what's happening to high school sports. Same teams year after year.

HT in the North
HM in East Metro
Lakevilles in the South Metro
EP/Tonka in the West Metro

Granted HM has to because its a private, but the others have large, successful hockey association, and they are ruining HS hockey will all the recruiting BS forming super teams. Some people enjoy it, other don't. I'm old school and long for the days when different schools would make it to state. Whether it was Ramsey, Irondale, Centennial, or Columbia Heights, all schools had a chance to make it to state on any given year. Now the state tournament has become Groundhog day!

Like I mentioned in another post. It's time for a third class

Class A - for small schools with small youth associations
Class AA - For mid to large schools with mid to large youth associations (and want to play by the current MSHSL rules)
Class AAA - for any school that doesn't want to play by the rules and wants to win at all costs. (Schools get to opt in to this class)

Go ahead and bash away!
No bashing from me.
I think there should be another class called pre-juniors and recruit away in that league. High school hockey has been ruined by parents and coaches recruiting. It’s no longer authentic. It appears that MSHSL just looks the other way?
The power is no longer with the "people in charge of things," it's with the parents and the players. I like the players having control though I don't like all the movement, yet I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. It's a reality of the world in 2021. Money and "experiences" have replaced almost every other guiding principle in modern life.

The only way for things to change is to take the money out of sports and return youth sports to house / recreational leagues until skaters join the high school. Obviously, that's never going to happen, because too many parents and entities make money out of this system, no matter the sport.

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: A Third Class

Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue May 18, 2021 9:12 am

I know people don't like recruiting and open enrollment but it could also work in the other direction. Every time a player is recruited and open enrolls into one of the "power programs" it displaces a local player that is a pretty decent hockey player. There is a whole lot of meat left on the bone of development between the ages of 14/15 to 18/19 and it's a shame some hockey careers end that young. Open enrollment and recruiting can also allow those programs that are struggling to recruit displaced players from other programs.

Maybe it's time to get it out in the open and have the MHSHL make a portal for players to enter that are looking for teams/schools to play for. Better to have some control and transparency on something that is already happening than to let it run wild. You think it's crazy, transferring schools to play a sport, yet kids all over the country move hundreds of miles away from home as high schoolers to play Tier 1 and Junior hockey. Open enrolling to a nearby school within a 30 minute drive is no big deal. This could really breathe new life into some of those programs that have fallen on hard times.

Kids transfer schools all the time for various reasons from academics to art/music programs to athletics. I don't see the big deal in letting kids go to an environment where they are happiest and have the opportunity to be the most successful they can be. Why are we against it just because they cross an imaginary line to go to school? Admittedly, I've changed from my old school ways of thinking that way.

The Exiled One
Posts: 1788
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Re: A Third Class

Post by The Exiled One » Mon May 24, 2021 8:27 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:12 am
I know people don't like recruiting and open enrollment but it could also work in the other direction. Every time a player is recruited and open enrolls into one of the "power programs" it displaces a local player that is a pretty decent hockey player. There is a whole lot of meat left on the bone of development between the ages of 14/15 to 18/19 and it's a shame some hockey careers end that young. Open enrollment and recruiting can also allow those programs that are struggling to recruit displaced players from other programs.

Maybe it's time to get it out in the open and have the MHSHL make a portal for players to enter that are looking for teams/schools to play for. Better to have some control and transparency on something that is already happening than to let it run wild. You think it's crazy, transferring schools to play a sport, yet kids all over the country move hundreds of miles away from home as high schoolers to play Tier 1 and Junior hockey. Open enrolling to a nearby school within a 30 minute drive is no big deal. This could really breathe new life into some of those programs that have fallen on hard times.

Kids transfer schools all the time for various reasons from academics to art/music programs to athletics. I don't see the big deal in letting kids go to an environment where they are happiest and have the opportunity to be the most successful they can be. Why are we against it just because they cross an imaginary line to go to school? Admittedly, I've changed from my old school ways of thinking that way.
Main problem is that nobody wants to transfer to a school that loses. There are plenty of metro programs that aren’t making cuts and whose varsity rosters are filled with nominal players, but you won’t find those teams by looking in the top half of the standings.

You would think and hope that kids would rather play and lose than not play at all, but that’s generally not how it plays out.

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:33 am

Re: A Third Class

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:27 am

I am a one class kind of guy but even I have to admit it's time for a 3rd class

Recruiting is only going to get worse...Families are cutting deals in AAA hockey. Coaches are so smug today they don't even hide or deny the fact that they are recruiting. Parents are shopping their kids constantly and lawyering up when they want to make a change

The same 10 - 12 teams will represent 90% of the teams at the state tournament year end and year out

Option 1- Three classes

Class AAA - All the obvious top end schools, 90% of the privates and yes Hermantown
Class AA - The bloomington's, the Mankato's, the Woodbury's...Mid size schools and schools with "occasional success" when a group of families actually agree to stick together
Class A- Everyone else

Second option...
Take the High School Elite league, expand it thru the spring, invite Shattuck in and have a premier High School hockey league that somewhat mirrors that the USHL or NA...This league has ownership groups, GM's, scouts, tv deal, billet families, etc etc. 80+ games.....

Third option - (and the one I predict could happen)
Hockey schools like Breakaway and Gentry will add other locations, franchise their model or more schools like those will pop up all over the state...In a couple years, I could easily see there being another 4-6 hockey schools...This could result in a "hockey academy" type league and state tournament

East Side Pioneer Guy
Posts: 1348
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: A Third Class

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:08 pm

There just aren't enough HS hockey programs for 3 classes. And the proposed AAA class, it's just ridiculous.

Other places on this forum I've stated why I think we never should have introduced intermural athletics into schools. This discussion just reinforces that. I've also thought for a few years now that I can see youth athletics bifurcating into two tracks, one more of a rec league and the other more of an AAA track. So if kids want to play one sport 12 months a year while playing in a tournament every weekend they can; and other kids can just show up to play whatever sport is in season.

And that may come to HS hockey and basketball. Maybe HS teams become the rec league track, and the top talent plays for AAA or junior league teams. It may be too late already to put the tooth paste back in the tube. From what I gather on this forum, the MSHSL will either need to allow more or less unlimited transfers and recruiting, or continue to look the other way. And looking the other way may become increasingly untenable. I would think that since AA boys hockey pays the freight for many other non-revenue producing sports would lead MSHSL to try to hang onto that golden goose for as long as they can; it's just human nature. If it's common knowledge that the best players are not on HS teams (and we seem to get closer to that every season), we may not see hard sell outs for semifinal Friday. It just wouldn't as special to hear Sweet Lou from the Soo embarrass himself by saying, "I just don't see how Duluth East can win this game,"

One thing to remember is that, often on this forum, we tend to zero in on hockey when discussing things like transfers. But MSHSL has to keep an eye on the big picture. There are a lot of sports they sanction, and you can only allow so much special treatment for any one of them.

The kids seem to be following the NBA stars. It's less common for the best to think, "I want to help my team win the title;" and more common to think, "I want to go to the team that will win the title."
Hockey Is For Everyone

Puckguy19
Posts: 669
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 9:01 am
Location: Bemidji

Re: A Third Class

Post by Puckguy19 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:10 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:27 am
I am a one class kind of guy but even I have to admit it's time for a 3rd class

Recruiting is only going to get worse...Families are cutting deals in AAA hockey. Coaches are so smug today they don't even hide or deny the fact that they are recruiting. Parents are shopping their kids constantly and lawyering up when they want to make a change

The same 10 - 12 teams will represent 90% of the teams at the state tournament year end and year out

Option 1- Three classes

Class AAA - All the obvious top end schools, 90% of the privates and yes Hermantown
Class AA - The bloomington's, the Mankato's, the Woodbury's...Mid size schools and schools with "occasional success" when a group of families actually agree to stick together
Class A- Everyone else

Second option...
Take the High School Elite league, expand it thru the spring, invite Shattuck in and have a premier High School hockey league that somewhat mirrors that the USHL or NA...This league has ownership groups, GM's, scouts, tv deal, billet families, etc etc. 80+ games.....

Third option - (and the one I predict could happen)
Hockey schools like Breakaway and Gentry will add other locations, franchise their model or more schools like those will pop up all over the state...In a couple years, I could easily see there being another 4-6 hockey schools...This could result in a "hockey academy" type league and state tournament
I too am an advocate of one class.

What we have learned from the lawsuit over the girls tournament is that the site(s) will have to be equal (the X). That is quite a burden on the Wild during the end of the season.

The other issue is that “tradition” or interest is not equally distributed. Start with everyone at the A level. Anyone who wants to opt up goes to AA. So the A class is set whether you are Kittson North or Minneapolis. Most will be too proud to stay in A.

Then take the remainder by enrollment and separate into two classes. If Roseau opts up, then the lowest AAA goes down. If that school wants to opt up then go to the second, or third, etc.

Use the college rinks for QF. AAA at Mariucci, AA at the Herb or Amsoil, and A at Ridder or Mankato.

Bring all the semi’s and final/third to the X. If you want a consolation bracket they go back to Mariucci/Ridder and the Herb.

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