Single A state field

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lakescountrylife
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Single A state field

Post by lakescountrylife » Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:42 pm

BlueLineSpecial wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:42 am
BSUBeaver wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:37 am
elliott70 wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:35 am
Not sure if the Minneapolis co-op includes all the Minneapolis schools but their high school total enrollment is over 6000 students.
With Minneapolis, I just listed the three schools that they had listed as part of the co-op on the MSHSL website. But from all the other media reports, it sounds like it includes all schools in the MPS system.
Everyone talks about Hermantown moving up, but sheesh, Minneapolis' population draw dwarfs that of Hermantown. Maybe we should create a Minneapolis thread 8)
Right? Those Minneapolis sandbaggers!

Since they moved down to 2A in 13-14 their record is 115-102-10 while H-town is 218-31-13. Minneapolis has been in one section final. They made it to state once, this year, while H-town has made it to state every year but once, in 18-19. Minneapolis has typically been the #6 seed or lower in their section (six times) while H-town is typically in the state championship game (five times) with two state titles, two 2nd place, plus a 3rd place showing.

A totally equal comparison for outrage sake :D

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: Single A state field

Post by elliott70 » Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:45 pm

I believe the question is why a school with their population playing single A?
Well some, if not most, understand that to have a program they needed the opportunity to have a degree of success.
But for how long?
Their reduced free/reduced population is greater than the entire city population of Bagley.
So what does the MSHSL do for the Bagley’s of the world?
Exactly, nothing.
No one, or at least not many, fault Minneapolis. But at some time they, and others, must/should accept their fate and play AA.
Just as Hermantown should accept the responsibility of playing AA.
Last edited by elliott70 on Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ClassAGuy
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Re: Single A state field

Post by ClassAGuy » Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:53 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:45 pm
I believe the question is why a school with their population playing single A?
Well some, if not most, understand that to have a program they needed the opportunity to have a degree of success.
But for how long?
Their reduced free/reduced population is greater than the entire city population of Bagley.
So what does the MSHSL do for the Bagley’s of the world?
Exactly, nothing.
No one, or at least many, fault Minneapolis. But at some time they, and others, must/should accept their fate and play AA.
Just as Hermantown should accept the responsibility of playing AA.
Very good post Elliott I think you bring up some very good points and also point out the issues/flaws with Class A as we know it today.

headsupsticksdown
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Re: Single A state field

Post by headsupsticksdown » Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:14 pm

I have no issues with MSP or the poor dying public schools in St. P getting some sort of preferential treatment. It’s a damn shame to see the dwindling numbers and what the change in these communities have done to hockey in places where numbers used to be strong. The issues in rural areas of the state are prevalent to the city schools as well, so if you want to revive and provide opportunities for A schools, all should be considered. Johnson couldn’t even field a JV team this season for Pete’s sake…

lakescountrylife
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Re: Single A state field

Post by lakescountrylife » Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:29 am

headsupsticksdown wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:14 pm
I have no issues with MSP or the poor dying public schools in St. P getting some sort of preferential treatment. It’s a damn shame to see the dwindling numbers and what the change in these communities have done to hockey in places where numbers used to be strong. The issues in rural areas of the state are prevalent to the city schools as well, so if you want to revive and provide opportunities for A schools, all should be considered. Johnson couldn’t even field a JV team this season for Pete’s sake…
Amen =D>

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: Single A state field

Post by elliott70 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:58 am

lakescountrylife wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:29 am
headsupsticksdown wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:14 pm
I have no issues with MSP or the poor dying public schools in St. P getting some sort of preferential treatment. It’s a damn shame to see the dwindling numbers and what the change in these communities have done to hockey in places where numbers used to be strong. The issues in rural areas of the state are prevalent to the city schools as well, so if you want to revive and provide opportunities for A schools, all should be considered. Johnson couldn’t even field a JV team this season for Pete’s sake…
Amen =D>
Iam familiar with the problems of the small northern communities and not so much with the metro, but the question remains what is the MSHSL doing to help all not just a few. I have nothing against Minneapolis, Monticello, river lakes or others that have benefited from MSHSL decisions but what can be done for those schools that are struggling with a JV team or other similar problems?

I think the MSHSL board needs to step up or get out of the way.

hawkhockey
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:53 pm

Re: Single A state field

Post by hawkhockey » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:01 am

elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:58 am
lakescountrylife wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:29 am
headsupsticksdown wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:14 pm
I have no issues with MSP or the poor dying public schools in St. P getting some sort of preferential treatment. It’s a damn shame to see the dwindling numbers and what the change in these communities have done to hockey in places where numbers used to be strong. The issues in rural areas of the state are prevalent to the city schools as well, so if you want to revive and provide opportunities for A schools, all should be considered. Johnson couldn’t even field a JV team this season for Pete’s sake…
Amen =D>
Iam familiar with the problems of the small northern communities and not so much with the metro, but the question remains what is the MSHSL doing to help all not just a few. I have nothing against Minneapolis, Monticello, river lakes or others that have benefited from MSHSL decisions but what can be done for those schools that are struggling with a JV team or other similar problems?

I think the MSHSL board needs to step up or get out of the way.
Are you guys all playing ignorant or do you really not understand why the MSHSL is able to do something to help Minneapolis but not the Bagleys of single A? The "high talent" hockey players exist and live in Minneapolis but not in the outstate small towns. The MSHSL can't force families to move to these communities so what does anyone propose they do? If Minneapolis goes back to AA it's likely the talented players all leave again and we're back where we started.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: Single A state field

Post by elliott70 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:48 am

hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:01 am
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:58 am
lakescountrylife wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:29 am


Amen =D>
Iam familiar with the problems of the small northern communities and not so much with the metro, but the question remains what is the MSHSL doing to help all not just a few. I have nothing against Minneapolis, Monticello, river lakes or others that have benefited from MSHSL decisions but what can be done for those schools that are struggling with a JV team or other similar problems?

I think the MSHSL board needs to step up or get out of the way.
Are you guys all playing ignorant or do you really not understand why the MSHSL is able to do something to help Minneapolis but not the Bagleys of single A? The "high talent" hockey players exist and live in Minneapolis but not in the outstate small towns. The MSHSL can't force families to move to these communities so what does anyone propose they do? If Minneapolis goes back to AA it's likely the talented players all leave again and we're back where we started.
Of course, we understand it and if you had read what was written it was stated that we do understand it.
Apparently, you do not understand it but Bagley, Crookston, Red Lake Falls, Hallock and Baudette have high end talent that also moves.
Would Minneapolis high schools' hockey team collapse if they had to be AA?
Maybe, I don't know. But if that happens its more on the MSHSL for not trying to find a solution(s) that benefit all.
I do not know where you live but perhaps you need to get out of your shell and realize there is a world beyond your doorstep -
Minneapolis is where the high end talent is???
Geez...

hawkhockey
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:53 pm

Re: Single A state field

Post by hawkhockey » Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:05 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:48 am
hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:01 am
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:58 am


Iam familiar with the problems of the small northern communities and not so much with the metro, but the question remains what is the MSHSL doing to help all not just a few. I have nothing against Minneapolis, Monticello, river lakes or others that have benefited from MSHSL decisions but what can be done for those schools that are struggling with a JV team or other similar problems?

I think the MSHSL board needs to step up or get out of the way.
Are you guys all playing ignorant or do you really not understand why the MSHSL is able to do something to help Minneapolis but not the Bagleys of single A? The "high talent" hockey players exist and live in Minneapolis but not in the outstate small towns. The MSHSL can't force families to move to these communities so what does anyone propose they do? If Minneapolis goes back to AA it's likely the talented players all leave again and we're back where we started.
Of course, we understand it and if you had read what was written it was stated that we do understand it.
Apparently, you do not understand it but Bagley, Crookston, Red Lake Falls, Hallock and Baudette have high end talent that also moves.
Would Minneapolis high schools' hockey team collapse if they had to be AA?
Maybe, I don't know. But if that happens its more on the MSHSL for not trying to find a solution(s) that benefit all.
I do not know where you live but perhaps you need to get out of your shell and realize there is a world beyond your doorstep -
Minneapolis is where the high end talent is???
Geez...
There were 3 comments saying MSHSL needs to do something to help the outstate schools like they help Minneapolis but no one wants to put forth an idea of what that is. That's the part I'm responding to. I get annoyed when people say something needs to be better but don't have any suggestions. It seems to me based on these comments that people in this thread feel the league shouldn't help Minneapolis because they can't find a way to help the outstate schools.

Those areas of course have talented players, in an attempt to be brief I shortchanged those areas and the players that work hard and represent their communities well. The point I'm trying to make is that even when the talented players of small outstate programs stay home that's not enough to make those programs competitive long term, they'll still be susceptible to the talent cycles like everyone else. The Minneapolis program has the opportunity to be competitive (probably not dominant) in single A hockey without feeling the effects of talent cycles as much because of the density and resources these families have. If they have continued success and reach the A tournament consistently I'm all for forcing them to AA but public school hockey in Minneapolis was effectively dead in the 2000s and early 2010s when they were AA.

Your condescension aside, I've lived in rural communities as small as 1000 up to one of our nation's largest cities, I think my shell is expanded just fine. Yes the majority of high end talent is concentrated where a lot of the population and money are, the twin cities and their surrounding suburbs.

elliott70
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Re: Single A state field

Post by elliott70 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:20 pm

Again, you do not know what ideas I have proposed.
You do not see them on this site because this is for fun. Anything on here is not being considered by the MSHSL or Hermantown or etc.....

The point of this whole Minneapolis (not a Minneapolis conversation but a MSHSL conversation) discussion is why do you have rules and have exceptions that benefit some but yet do not take action to provide for those that are less fortunate.

Again, not anti-Minneapolis.

hawkhockey
Posts: 247
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Re: Single A state field

Post by hawkhockey » Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:41 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:20 pm
Again, you do not know what ideas I have proposed.
You do not see them on this site because this is for fun. Anything on here is not being considered by the MSHSL or Hermantown or etc.....

The point of this whole Minneapolis (not a Minneapolis conversation but a MSHSL conversation) discussion is why do you have rules and have exceptions that benefit some but yet do not take action to provide for those that are less fortunate.

Again, not anti-Minneapolis.
I apologize for not being aware of things you suggested that were not posted here. Again, my point is people here saying something needs to change but offering no ideas to make the situation better, only making negative comments about a team operating within the rules. Just because we're not the decision makers doesn't mean we can't brainstorm solutions. Don't you do a version of that on here for MH meetings?

They have rules like this because the league understands they can implement a solution that levels the playing field for some, without disadvantaging others in a similar situation. They recognize that one size fits all doesn't work for everyone in a large state like ours. I hope the leaders of the smaller outstate schools, my school included, can find a solution that can elevate them to more frequent state tournament trips. The league is what it's member schools make of it.

rainier2
Posts: 634
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Re: Single A state field

Post by rainier2 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:45 pm

hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:41 pm
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:20 pm
Again, you do not know what ideas I have proposed.
You do not see them on this site because this is for fun. Anything on here is not being considered by the MSHSL or Hermantown or etc.....

The point of this whole Minneapolis (not a Minneapolis conversation but a MSHSL conversation) discussion is why do you have rules and have exceptions that benefit some but yet do not take action to provide for those that are less fortunate.

Again, not anti-Minneapolis.
I apologize for not being aware of things you suggested that were not posted here. Again, my point is people here saying something needs to change but offering no ideas to make the situation better, only making negative comments about a team operating within the rules. Just because we're not the decision makers doesn't mean we can't brainstorm solutions. Don't you do a version of that on here for MH meetings?

They have rules like this because the league understands they can implement a solution that levels the playing field for some, without disadvantaging others in a similar situation. They recognize that one size fits all doesn't work for everyone in a large state like ours. I hope the leaders of the smaller outstate schools, my school included, can find a solution that can elevate them to more frequent state tournament trips. The league is what it's member schools make of it.
I have a suggestion: the MSHSL has decided they can judge if a team is "bad" enough to opt-down to A, so I think they should also get in the business of judging if a team is good enough to opt up to AA. Would get rid of the sandbagging issue that has plagued Class A the past 20 years.

hawkhockey
Posts: 247
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Re: Single A state field

Post by hawkhockey » Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:55 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:45 pm
hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:41 pm
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:20 pm
Again, you do not know what ideas I have proposed.
You do not see them on this site because this is for fun. Anything on here is not being considered by the MSHSL or Hermantown or etc.....

The point of this whole Minneapolis (not a Minneapolis conversation but a MSHSL conversation) discussion is why do you have rules and have exceptions that benefit some but yet do not take action to provide for those that are less fortunate.

Again, not anti-Minneapolis.
I apologize for not being aware of things you suggested that were not posted here. Again, my point is people here saying something needs to change but offering no ideas to make the situation better, only making negative comments about a team operating within the rules. Just because we're not the decision makers doesn't mean we can't brainstorm solutions. Don't you do a version of that on here for MH meetings?

They have rules like this because the league understands they can implement a solution that levels the playing field for some, without disadvantaging others in a similar situation. They recognize that one size fits all doesn't work for everyone in a large state like ours. I hope the leaders of the smaller outstate schools, my school included, can find a solution that can elevate them to more frequent state tournament trips. The league is what it's member schools make of it.
I have a suggestion: the MSHSL has decided they can judge if a team is "bad" enough to opt-down to A, so I think they should also get in the business of judging if a team is good enough to opt up to AA. Would get rid of the sandbagging issue that has plagued Class A the past 20 years.
Do you think I'm a Hermantown fan? My interest in the A tourney lessens every year as the same rotation of teams dominate it.

You have to petition to drop down so not quite the same. I get that was likely only a shot at Hermantown but giving the league such power would explode the brains of many on the board.

Where is F3?
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Re: Single A state field

Post by Where is F3? » Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:16 pm

A starting point would require all teams that field a AA Bantam team to compete at the AA level. Add all privates to compete at AA and a lot of issues get solved IMO. It will definitely lessen the quality at the top of the class, but it would be more competitive come sections/state. Isn't that the reason we have the 2 class system in the first place?

Goose21
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Re: Single A state field

Post by Goose21 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:05 pm

The 3 class system addresses both the situation with programs like Minneapolis and true small school programs. Minneapolis wouldn't be be competing with traditional AA powers and instead would be facing lower AA and better A. Small programs like Bagley, Red Lake Falls, North Shore, etc. wouldn't be competing against Warroad, East Grand Forks, and Hermantown, but instead would have opportunities against programs closer to their level. 3 classes promotes better competition within each class while also placing responsibility on each program to compete at a more appropriate level.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

headsupsticksdown
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Re: Single A state field

Post by headsupsticksdown » Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:11 pm

hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:41 pm
elliott70 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:20 pm
Again, you do not know what ideas I have proposed.
You do not see them on this site because this is for fun. Anything on here is not being considered by the MSHSL or Hermantown or etc.....

The point of this whole Minneapolis (not a Minneapolis conversation but a MSHSL conversation) discussion is why do you have rules and have exceptions that benefit some but yet do not take action to provide for those that are less fortunate.

Again, not anti-Minneapolis.
I apologize for not being aware of things you suggested that were not posted here. Again, my point is people here saying something needs to change but offering no ideas to make the situation better, only making negative comments about a team operating within the rules. Just because we're not the decision makers doesn't mean we can't brainstorm solutions. Don't you do a version of that on here for MH meetings?

They have rules like this because the league understands they can implement a solution that levels the playing field for some, without disadvantaging others in a similar situation. They recognize that one size fits all doesn't work for everyone in a large state like ours. I hope the leaders of the smaller outstate schools, my school included, can find a solution that can elevate them to more frequent state tournament trips. The league is what it's member schools make of it.
I have an idea. Go the NCAA basketball route and have another separate tourney for the teams that didn't qualify for "State". Give the schools and kids and opportunity that would've otherwise not had the chance to compete in a state wide tournament to close our their year. Might not be the big one, but IMO this is a much better option than having to create a whole new class and then trying to cram it all into a single event.

rainier2
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Re: Single A state field

Post by rainier2 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:18 pm

hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:55 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:45 pm
hawkhockey wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:41 pm


I apologize for not being aware of things you suggested that were not posted here. Again, my point is people here saying something needs to change but offering no ideas to make the situation better, only making negative comments about a team operating within the rules. Just because we're not the decision makers doesn't mean we can't brainstorm solutions. Don't you do a version of that on here for MH meetings?

They have rules like this because the league understands they can implement a solution that levels the playing field for some, without disadvantaging others in a similar situation. They recognize that one size fits all doesn't work for everyone in a large state like ours. I hope the leaders of the smaller outstate schools, my school included, can find a solution that can elevate them to more frequent state tournament trips. The league is what it's member schools make of it.
I have a suggestion: the MSHSL has decided they can judge if a team is "bad" enough to opt-down to A, so I think they should also get in the business of judging if a team is good enough to opt up to AA. Would get rid of the sandbagging issue that has plagued Class A the past 20 years.
Do you think I'm a Hermantown fan? My interest in the A tourney lessens every year as the same rotation of teams dominate it.

You have to petition to drop down so not quite the same. I get that was likely only a shot at Hermantown but giving the league such power would explode the brains of many on the board.
Actually it wasn't a shot at Hermantown, it was a shot at how the MSHSL has allowed Class A to be a festering boil of sandbagging for over 20 years. Since 2010, only two non-metro teams have even made it to the A title game, Alex and Greenway, and Greenway needed 3 transfers before that season and a weak Hermantown team to get there.

Since 2000, only 7 of a possible 42 teams in the title game have not been from a metro area. (I dont count DC from last year, given the COVID thing)

I'm just saying, the MSHSL has a criteria that allows them to judge that some AA teams are "too bad" for AA. So why can't they then create a criteria for A teams that are "too good" for A? :?:

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