State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

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ClassAGuy
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State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by ClassAGuy » Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:26 pm

One thing I have always been confused by is the format of the Tournament for TV

Wouldn't you want QF format to be as follows
11 AM #1 seed vs unseeded- Ugly game in A and I know in AA it varies but again start the Turney with the Top seed they get the most rest then
1:30 Pm #4 vs #5- Always a great game during the day time slot but people tune in to see a great match up
6 PM - #2 seed vs Unseeded- Be good match up on prime time TV better then 1 throttling unseeded team
8 PM- #3 seed vs unseeded- Most people dont watch the night cap all the way through on a week night

Semis
6 PM #1 seed vs 4/5 Top seeded team gets to be in prime time and watch the next game and rest like it is always set up in sections
8 PM #2 seed vs #3 seed let the next best to teams battle into the late night and again top seed would get advantage of rest

Championship
4 PM Class A title
7 PM Class AA title
Just think be a better to have the championships Back to Back

Never understood the current format #2 seed has better schedule gets more rest then the #1 seed maybe just me

Sparlimb
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by Sparlimb » Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:37 pm

Well I'm sure the idea is the #1 seed gets the Prime Time game. They are the featured team. Back in the one class days, you'd stick in your session even for the semi-finals. So that team would play the second game on Friday afternoon and have all the way until Saturday night to play again, which was a decent advantage.

And as I said in a different thread, the 11 AM game is the easiest for a seeded team to lose. Its so early that some teams come out really flat, especially when bedazzled by the crowd and the lights. So as a seeded team, I always want to avoid that timeslot. As an unseeded team, put me at 11, so I can shock the world. Granted, this year on the A side, no unseeded team was going to beat Hermantown no matter when they played.

HSPuckFan
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by HSPuckFan » Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:27 pm

I have often wondered why they don't play the 2 3rd place games in the afternoon and the 2 championship games in the evening.It'd give the small school kids the chance to play in front of a full xcel crowd.
Go Zephyrs

BSUBeaver
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by BSUBeaver » Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:53 pm

HSPuckFan wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:27 pm
I have often wondered why they don't play the 2 3rd place games in the afternoon and the 2 championship games in the evening.It'd give the small school kids the chance to play in front of a full xcel crowd.
AA championship session is usually a sellout, or close to it. No way the A schools would be able to get tickets without snubbing some AA season ticket holders.

Joe2015
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by Joe2015 » Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:15 pm

HSPuckFan wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:27 pm
I have often wondered why they don't play the 2 3rd place games in the afternoon and the 2 championship games in the evening.It'd give the small school kids the chance to play in front of a full xcel crowd.
The reason?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:42 pm

BSUBeaver wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:53 pm
HSPuckFan wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:27 pm
I have often wondered why they don't play the 2 3rd place games in the afternoon and the 2 championship games in the evening.It'd give the small school kids the chance to play in front of a full xcel crowd.
AA championship session is usually a sellout, or close to it. No way the A schools would be able to get tickets without snubbing some AA season ticket holders.
Yeah, there is a reason one tournament is general admission and one is reserved seating.

I believe that when the tournament was largely un-televised and held at the St. Paul Auditorium, the semi-finals were split between the afternoon and evening sessions. My strong suspicion is that this was due to it's 8K seating capacity. It didn't take long for the tournament to become popular enough that every session was sold out, and dividing the semis allowed for more people to see at least one of them.

Once TV broadcast the entire championship series is (I believe) when the semis were held in the same evening session. Once the basket ball tournament became two class, it's popularity waned and hockey was ascendant. Until then, the hockey tournament was very much a second fiddle to basketball.* The golden era for hockey was from 1969 (when it moved to the larger Met for 6 years) and 1991. 1983 Was the first year that the semis were once again split, and all 11 games were televised. I thought it was remarkable that TV agreed to tp that. Having a consolation game on at 7 on Friday evening? Wow. The tournament was that popular. But it allowed for the semifinalist schools to have more tickets, and apparently ad revenues supported it.

I assume that, under the current format, the TV execs think that having the 1 seed in prime time is best for drawing eye balls.

I'm not ambitious enough to do a deep dive on that theory that 11 is the most likely game for an unseeded team to pull off an upset. It's only one data point, but I recall Hill upending #2 Maple Grove then. It was MG's first trip, and I figured Lex could pull that off. It must take 2 or 3 trips for a coach to really figure out how to manage team off ice in the days leading up to and during the tournament. For a new coach and team, they are thinking about a fun weekend in Saint Paul, but they can be headed home before sunset on Friday in the blink of an eye. I feel bad for kids who have a rude awakening like that.
No coach, no team
No ref, no game

HSPuckFan
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by HSPuckFan » Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:22 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:42 pm
BSUBeaver wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:53 pm
HSPuckFan wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:27 pm
I have often wondered why they don't play the 2 3rd place games in the afternoon and the 2 championship games in the evening.It'd give the small school kids the chance to play in front of a full xcel crowd.
AA championship session is usually a sellout, or close to it. No way the A schools would be able to get tickets without snubbing some AA season ticket holders.
Yeah, there is a reason one tournament is general admission and one is reserved seating.

I believe that when the tournament was largely un-televised and held at the St. Paul Auditorium, the semi-finals were split between the afternoon and evening sessions. My strong suspicion is that this was due to it's 8K seating capacity. It didn't take long for the tournament to become popular enough that every session was sold out, and dividing the semis allowed for more people to see at least one of them.

Once TV broadcast the entire championship series is (I believe) when the semis were held in the same evening session. Once the basket ball tournament became two class, it's popularity waned and hockey was ascendant. Until then, the hockey tournament was very much a second fiddle to basketball.* The golden era for hockey was from 1969 (when it moved to the larger Met for 6 years) and 1991. 1983 Was the first year that the semis were once again split, and all 11 games were televised. I thought it was remarkable that TV agreed to tp that. Having a consolation game on at 7 on Friday evening? Wow. The tournament was that popular. But it allowed for the semifinalist schools to have more tickets, and apparently ad revenues supported it.

I assume that, under the current format, the TV execs think that having the 1 seed in prime time is best for drawing eye balls.

I'm not ambitious enough to do a deep dive on that theory that 11 is the most likely game for an unseeded team to pull off an upset. It's only one data point, but I recall Hill upending #2 Maple Grove then. It was MG's first trip, and I figured Lex could pull that off. It must take 2 or 3 trips for a coach to really figure out how to manage team off ice in the days leading up to and during the tournament. For a new coach and team, they are thinking about a fun weekend in Saint Paul, but they can be headed home before sunset on Friday in the blink of an eye. I feel bad for kids who have a rude awakening like that.
Okay so you make championship Saturday the assigned seating in the AA ticket package....You make the ticket package AA Quaterfinal AA Semifinals and Championship Saturday.The 3rd place games become GA like the consolation.
Go Zephyrs

East Side Pioneer Guy
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:57 pm

HSPuckFan wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:22 pm
East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:42 pm
BSUBeaver wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:53 pm


AA championship session is usually a sellout, or close to it. No way the A schools would be able to get tickets without snubbing some AA season ticket holders.
Yeah, there is a reason one tournament is general admission and one is reserved seating.

I believe that when the tournament was largely un-televised and held at the St. Paul Auditorium, the semi-finals were split between the afternoon and evening sessions. My strong suspicion is that this was due to it's 8K seating capacity. It didn't take long for the tournament to become popular enough that every session was sold out, and dividing the semis allowed for more people to see at least one of them.

Once TV broadcast the entire championship series is (I believe) when the semis were held in the same evening session. Once the basket ball tournament became two class, it's popularity waned and hockey was ascendant. Until then, the hockey tournament was very much a second fiddle to basketball.* The golden era for hockey was from 1969 (when it moved to the larger Met for 6 years) and 1991. 1983 Was the first year that the semis were once again split, and all 11 games were televised. I thought it was remarkable that TV agreed to tp that. Having a consolation game on at 7 on Friday evening? Wow. The tournament was that popular. But it allowed for the semifinalist schools to have more tickets, and apparently ad revenues supported it.

I assume that, under the current format, the TV execs think that having the 1 seed in prime time is best for drawing eye balls.

I'm not ambitious enough to do a deep dive on that theory that 11 is the most likely game for an unseeded team to pull off an upset. It's only one data point, but I recall Hill upending #2 Maple Grove then. It was MG's first trip, and I figured Lex could pull that off. It must take 2 or 3 trips for a coach to really figure out how to manage team off ice in the days leading up to and during the tournament. For a new coach and team, they are thinking about a fun weekend in Saint Paul, but they can be headed home before sunset on Friday in the blink of an eye. I feel bad for kids who have a rude awakening like that.
Okay so you make championship Saturday the assigned seating in the AA ticket package....You make the ticket package AA Quaterfinal AA Semifinals and Championship Saturday.The 3rd place games become GA like the consolation.
The odds of selling that to the Class A crowd are somewhere between slim and none, and slim just left town. The result of that would be that the 4 schools involved would split the school tickets on the ends. Currently, in Class A games, they sit between the blue lines (more or less) and they know all of their fans can get in. I'm no Class guy supporter, but that is an attractive feature of the A tourney.

If an A and a AA school need to split one end, it would be based on enrollment. How would that work for say EP and Mahtomedi? I don't know how many tickets are available for the schools, or approximate enrollments for those schools. You can't just say Mahtomedi students all get tickets and some EP students get tickets. And if Mahtomedi doesn't get enough tickets for their students and the students' parents, they will not be at all pleased with that. And they shouldn't be. Can someone tell me how many are typically in the house during the A title game? The tickets sold number is not what I'm looking for, I'm lookin for a decent estimate of how many bodies are watching the game. For the sake of argument, I'll go with 5K for now. And of the 5K, a lot of them might not be able to get in to double header final session.

Another factor is the possibility of multiple overtimes. With the current set up, there is (I believe) a max of one 8 minute OT. After that, both teams get 3rd place trophies and they get the H out of there for the main event. How many OTs would you allow for the Class A game before moving on to AA? Would you make them co-champs? Would you make them come back at 9 on Sunday morning?

Outstate Class A folks may have already been in town since Wed. or even Tue. Playing at 4, they may not care to get home at 11PM as opposed to the 6 or 7 Pm they're used to. This may affect travel plans in ways we all don't necessarily appreciate.

You change one variable in the equation, and it changes a lot of other things, too.
No coach, no team
No ref, no game

bardown27
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by bardown27 » Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:53 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:57 pm
HSPuckFan wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:22 pm
East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:42 pm


Yeah, there is a reason one tournament is general admission and one is reserved seating.

I believe that when the tournament was largely un-televised and held at the St. Paul Auditorium, the semi-finals were split between the afternoon and evening sessions. My strong suspicion is that this was due to it's 8K seating capacity. It didn't take long for the tournament to become popular enough that every session was sold out, and dividing the semis allowed for more people to see at least one of them.

Once TV broadcast the entire championship series is (I believe) when the semis were held in the same evening session. Once the basket ball tournament became two class, it's popularity waned and hockey was ascendant. Until then, the hockey tournament was very much a second fiddle to basketball.* The golden era for hockey was from 1969 (when it moved to the larger Met for 6 years) and 1991. 1983 Was the first year that the semis were once again split, and all 11 games were televised. I thought it was remarkable that TV agreed to tp that. Having a consolation game on at 7 on Friday evening? Wow. The tournament was that popular. But it allowed for the semifinalist schools to have more tickets, and apparently ad revenues supported it.

I assume that, under the current format, the TV execs think that having the 1 seed in prime time is best for drawing eye balls.

I'm not ambitious enough to do a deep dive on that theory that 11 is the most likely game for an unseeded team to pull off an upset. It's only one data point, but I recall Hill upending #2 Maple Grove then. It was MG's first trip, and I figured Lex could pull that off. It must take 2 or 3 trips for a coach to really figure out how to manage team off ice in the days leading up to and during the tournament. For a new coach and team, they are thinking about a fun weekend in Saint Paul, but they can be headed home before sunset on Friday in the blink of an eye. I feel bad for kids who have a rude awakening like that.
Okay so you make championship Saturday the assigned seating in the AA ticket package....You make the ticket package AA Quaterfinal AA Semifinals and Championship Saturday.The 3rd place games become GA like the consolation.
Another factor is the possibility of multiple overtimes. With the current set up, there is (I believe) a max of one 8 minute OT. After that, both teams get 3rd place trophies and they get the H out of there for the main event. How many OTs would you allow for the Class A game before moving on to AA? Would you make them co-champs? Would you make them come back at 9 on Sunday morning?
2010 3rd place game for class A went 3OT so unless that has been changed since, I don’t know if that one OT rule is legit.p

Joe2015
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by Joe2015 » Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:32 am

I believe the rule is 3OT max for the third place games: after that, its called a tie and dual third place trophies are awarded

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:44 am

In any case, the question remains, how many overtimes would A be allowed before they finish it in the morning or a tie is declared?

Do we want young athletes playing until or past midnight on the third consecutive day of a tournament?
No coach, no team
No ref, no game

Joe2015
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Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by Joe2015 » Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:35 am

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:44 am
In any case, the question remains, how many overtimes would A be allowed before they finish it in the morning or a tie is declared?

Do we want young athletes playing until or past midnight on the third consecutive day of a tournament?
The championship games are played until there is a winner: they wouldnt come back on a sunday (or at least I assume)

East Side Pioneer Guy
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:08 pm

Joe2015 wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:35 am
East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:44 am
In any case, the question remains, how many overtimes would A be allowed before they finish it in the morning or a tie is declared?

Do we want young athletes playing until or past midnight on the third consecutive day of a tournament?
The championship games are played until there is a winner: they wouldnt come back on a sunday (or at least I assume)
Ok, so are you saying the AA may start at 10:30 if the A game goes multiple overtimes? Good luck selling that.
No coach, no team
No ref, no game

Joe2015
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by Joe2015 » Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:51 am

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:08 pm
Joe2015 wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:35 am
East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:44 am
In any case, the question remains, how many overtimes would A be allowed before they finish it in the morning or a tie is declared?

Do we want young athletes playing until or past midnight on the third consecutive day of a tournament?
The championship games are played until there is a winner: they wouldnt come back on a sunday (or at least I assume)
Ok, so are you saying the AA may start at 10:30 if the A game goes multiple overtimes? Good luck selling that.
Who is selling anything? Im just stating the rules

East Side Pioneer Guy
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: State Tournament Reformat Idea (Times of Games)

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:56 am

Joe2015 wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:51 am
East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:08 pm
Joe2015 wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:35 am


The championship games are played until there is a winner: they wouldnt come back on a sunday (or at least I assume)
Ok, so are you saying the AA may start at 10:30 if the A game goes multiple overtimes? Good luck selling that.
Who is selling anything? Im just stating the rules
To clarify, my question was posed to anyone who is advocating moving the two championship games into a single session. The current rule would not having anything to do with a two championship session. But I do appreciate the clarification.

It would be handy if the MSHSL had all the tournament rules in one place, like, maybe on it's web site. But then, it's the MSHSL.
No coach, no team
No ref, no game

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