Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

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arcticpurple
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Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by arcticpurple » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:51 am

New to MN Hockey...can someone help me understand why District/League games don't require scorekeepers to keep track of shots on net? Coming from outside of MN...home teams are required to keep these stats for all youth hockey games above mites. I totally understand the desire to de-emphasize stats in youth hockey, but it seems that district/league play should require shots on net be part of the scoresheet. We just finished a great district game with both goalies getting peppered in a 2-1 game -(probably 75 plus shots between the two). The kids connected to those 3 goals are on scoresheet but neither goalie officially faced a shot on net. Is it that tough for community based associations to get accurate stats? Not looking to start anything here...honestly would love to hear other peoples take.

elliott70
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by elliott70 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:32 am

DISTRICT 16 KEEPS sog BUT IT S NOT AN OFFICIAL REQUIREMENT.

zooomx
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by zooomx » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:30 pm

arcticpurple wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:51 am
New to MN Hockey...can someone help me understand why District/League games don't require scorekeepers to keep track of shots on net? Coming from outside of MN...home teams are required to keep these stats for all youth hockey games above mites. I totally understand the desire to de-emphasize stats in youth hockey, but it seems that district/league play should require shots on net be part of the scoresheet. We just finished a great district game with both goalies getting peppered in a 2-1 game -(probably 75 plus shots between the two). The kids connected to those 3 goals are on scoresheet but neither goalie officially faced a shot on net. Is it that tough for community based associations to get accurate stats? Not looking to start anything here...honestly would love to hear other peoples take.
I would say most associations keep track of bantams and peewees. Mostly for the review of coaches. I would think there is no need in Squirts.

On a related note, with volunteer parents recording them, shots on goal are pretty much meaningless at all youth levels due to the inconsistency of the reporting. Pretty much the only people who care about those stats are goalie parents. I have had my share of goalie parents come down to the scorers table to "protest" the recorded shots on goal. No offense, but it is usually a parent of a out of state team. LOL!

BSUBeaver
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by BSUBeaver » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:03 pm

I had a goalie parent question my counting as well, and I am a goalie parent as well. The shot was definitely going wide and the goalie gloved it. I didn't count it as the shot would not have went in if the goalie wasn't there. She didn't like my explanation. And this was a Squirt C Tournament game.

zooomx
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by zooomx » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:18 pm

BSUBeaver wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:03 pm
I had a goalie parent question my counting as well, and I am a goalie parent as well. The shot was definitely going wide and the goalie gloved it. I didn't count it as the shot would not have went in if the goalie wasn't there. She didn't like my explanation. And this was a Squirt C Tournament game.
I once saw a couple high school goalie parents (opposing team), confront their own head coach in a very loud and aggressive manner about the fact that he would not challenge the save totals after a game. It was out in the lobby in front of dozens of people. :roll:

blueline_6
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by blueline_6 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am

I think the easiest explanation is that the only stats MN Hockey requires to be recorded on the scoresheet are the ones the refs come over and tell them to right down - so goals, assists and penalties, that's it. And honestly there are a lot of missed assists. While there is a place on the scoresheet to records save totals and diagrams for each period to record where shots are taken from, none of that is required to be filled in. So you're relying on whatever mom or dad had the assigned duty to keep the book for that game. You're never going to get accurate shot stats from one game to another.

O-townClown
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by O-townClown » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:45 am

My attitude about shots at any level is if you want them tracked go ahead. Why people that want them counted ask people who don't give a flying flip can only be described as laziness.
Be kind. Rewind.

arcticpurple
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by arcticpurple » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:38 am

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:45 am
My attitude about shots at any level is if you want them tracked go ahead. Why people that want them counted ask people who don't give a flying flip can only be described as laziness.
Must be a Minnesota thing...most out of state competitive teams (Tier I and Tier II) are required to keep and publish stats through the state's USA Hockey affiliate. Volunteer parents are the ones typically doing this...same as MN. Not real hard to train someone what a shot on net is. I'm on my 2nd goalie, so ya I get that goalie parents can be intense/crazy. It's much easier to deal with the 2nd one because you ultimately realize it doesn't matter.

However, if kids want to play outside the MN Hockey bubble, they are regularly asked for stats. Heck...for MN players to get referred to the HP Tryouts, they have the provide stats. Pretty easy for players to get their stats but I guess goalie parents are expected to keep their own stats.

Anyway...thanks for the discussion. Always wondered what the thought process for not keeping stats for goalies.

O-townClown
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by O-townClown » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:53 am

arcticpurple wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:38 am
Must be a Minnesota thing...most out of state competitive teams (Tier I and Tier II) are required to keep and publish stats through the state's USA Hockey affiliate.
Most?

I've done my time with 5 years as VP of the USA Hockey affiliate where I lived. My son has also played in another state, plus a few years in a national league. Exactly which USA Hockey affiliates require shots? I haven't run into them.

The largest youth hockey tournament in the world doesn't publish statistics. Teams from every affiliate in that thing.
Be kind. Rewind.

arcticpurple
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by arcticpurple » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:58 am

O-townClown wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:53 am
arcticpurple wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:38 am
Must be a Minnesota thing...most out of state competitive teams (Tier I and Tier II) are required to keep and publish stats through the state's USA Hockey affiliate.
Most?

I've done my time with 5 years as VP of the USA Hockey affiliate where I lived. My son has also played in another state, plus a few years in a national league. Exactly which USA Hockey affiliates require shots? I haven't run into them.

The largest youth hockey tournament in the world doesn't publish statistics. Teams from every affiliate in that thing.
OK....I got pretty sloppy in that last post. It's not at the state affiliate level but the league level. Just seems like the majority of" competitive leagues, keep stats for skaters and goalies. I understand a lot of these tournaments ( Guessing you're referring to CCM Showcase?) don't keep stats but these aren't league games.

O-townClown
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by O-townClown » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:30 am

AP, you're all over the place here. Teams are required to track SOG and publish through the USA Hockey affiliate, then you backtrack and "a majority of competitive leagues" keep stats for skaters and goalies.

Which Tier II leagues are tracking statistics? CSDHL doesn't, and that's the best Tier II league by far. I know SFHL, a very good Tier II league for Florida does not. DSTHL does, other?

Which Tier I leagues are? I know NAPHL is very good about tracking statistics online, but they sure as heck don't have volunteer parents as the source. It is done by the paid official scorer. T1EHL closely tracks points, SOGs, GAA, and Save %. It appears AYHL does as well. So basically a few for-profit leagues at Tier I level do, at least as kids get older. But not by parents. And not required by affiliates.

If you want to take a stab at creating a for-profit league in Minnesota to usurp or supplement District play have at it.
Be kind. Rewind.

InThePipes
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:27 am

blueline_6 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
So you're relying on whatever mom or dad had the assigned duty to keep the book for that game. You're never going to get accurate shot stats from one game to another.
Truth.

arcticpurple
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by arcticpurple » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:03 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:30 am
AP, you're all over the place here. Teams are required to track SOG and publish through the USA Hockey affiliate, then you backtrack and "a majority of competitive leagues" keep stats for skaters and goalies.

Which Tier II leagues are tracking statistics? CSDHL doesn't, and that's the best Tier II league by far. I know SFHL, a very good Tier II league for Florida does not. DSTHL does, other?

Which Tier I leagues are? I know NAPHL is very good about tracking statistics online, but they sure as heck don't have volunteer parents as the source. It is done by the paid official scorer. T1EHL closely tracks points, SOGs, GAA, and Save %. It appears AYHL does as well. So basically a few for-profit leagues at Tier I level do, at least as kids get older. But not by parents. And not required by affiliates.

If you want to take a stab at creating a for-profit league in Minnesota to usurp or supplement District play have at it.
Like I said...I was totally wrong and misspoke about being required at the affiliate level. My bad. Never meant to get you all riled up. However, it does happen with Tier II League (volunteer levels) but it's certainly not the majority of leagues. Guess I made my observation from too small of sample size.

It's not rocket science and shouldn't be hard for parent volunteers to learn. I prefer to refer to youth hockey volunteers as professional volunteers, rather then parent volunteers. It's sets a higher standard for volunteer off-ice volunteer officials. Is it really too much to ask for the highest level of youth hockey in MN? I think I already know the answer, so no need to answer. :)

CSDHLA - not sure wherre they're pulling it from but if the stats are showing up on EP, it typical means it pulling from another public website.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/c ... /2019-2020

DSTHL - https://www.dsthl.com/stats#/536/leaders?season_id=2024

ASHA -Alaska Comp League Tier II - https://www.alaskastatehockey.com/stats ... ol=3877961

O-townClown
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by O-townClown » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:37 pm

arcticpurple wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:03 pm
However, it does happen with Tier II League (volunteer levels) but it's certainly not the majority of leagues. Guess I made my observation from too small of sample size.

It's not rocket science and shouldn't be hard for parent volunteers to learn. I prefer to refer to youth hockey volunteers as professional volunteers, rather then parent volunteers. It's sets a higher standard for volunteer off-ice volunteer officials. Is it really too much to ask for the highest level of youth hockey in MN? I think I already know the answer, so no need to answer. :)

CSDHLA - not sure wherre they're pulling it from but if the stats are showing up on EP, it typical means it pulling from another public website.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/c ... /2019-2020

DSTHL - https://www.dsthl.com/stats#/536/leaders?season_id=2024

ASHA -Alaska Comp League Tier II - https://www.alaskastatehockey.com/stats ... ol=3877961
It's not rocket science, but it is far more challenging because at least that's a precise field. Yes, some T2 leagues track shots. I mentioned Dallas Stars. CSDHL does not. So what?

Who is using these? Could they be corrupted? I've seen tournaments in Minnesota that try and it leads to complaints every day from parents of the goalies that say the statistics aren't accurate. I just don't see a volunteer taking on responsibility for tracking when the goalies switch or which goals are empty net.

I'll stand by my comment. If you want this, do it. If you want to track your kid's team go ahead. If you feel passionately about this take the proposal to your District Director and show them how it can be done for all the games. I fail to see a reason for the District Director to take this on given the many things more important on their plate, but I won't speak for them.
Be kind. Rewind.

InThePipes
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:45 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:37 pm
arcticpurple wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:03 pm
However, it does happen with Tier II League (volunteer levels) but it's certainly not the majority of leagues. Guess I made my observation from too small of sample size.

It's not rocket science and shouldn't be hard for parent volunteers to learn. I prefer to refer to youth hockey volunteers as professional volunteers, rather then parent volunteers. It's sets a higher standard for volunteer off-ice volunteer officials. Is it really too much to ask for the highest level of youth hockey in MN? I think I already know the answer, so no need to answer. :)

CSDHLA - not sure wherre they're pulling it from but if the stats are showing up on EP, it typical means it pulling from another public website.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/c ... /2019-2020

DSTHL - https://www.dsthl.com/stats#/536/leaders?season_id=2024

ASHA -Alaska Comp League Tier II - https://www.alaskastatehockey.com/stats ... ol=3877961
It's not rocket science, but it is far more challenging because at least that's a precise field. Yes, some T2 leagues track shots. I mentioned Dallas Stars. CSDHL does not. So what?

Who is using these? Could they be corrupted? I've seen tournaments in Minnesota that try and it leads to complaints every day from parents of the goalies that say the statistics aren't accurate. I just don't see a volunteer taking on responsibility for tracking when the goalies switch or which goals are empty net.

I'll stand by my comment. If you want this, do it. If you want to track your kid's team go ahead. If you feel passionately about this take the proposal to your District Director and show them how it can be done for all the games. I fail to see a reason for the District Director to take this on given the many things more important on their plate, but I won't speak for them.
Agree. At times these are counted fairly accurately (+/- 5%), but if I had to estimate I'd say more than half the time the shots captured on scoreboards and scoresheets are in the range of 15-20+% off. Does it matter? Nope, not to anyone other than the goalie (and his/her crazy mom or dad).

defense
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Re: Shots on net - Stats Youth Hockey

Post by defense » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:42 pm

Since most volunteers who would keep SOG stats are parents I think it is relevant to point out how hard it can get to track the shots while also watching a kid play.

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