Are Off Ice Training Facilities Legal During the Season?

Leave It To Beaver · Post by **Leave It To Beaver** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:05 pm

There are many associations across the state that are using off ice training centers during the season and I am wondering if this is actually legal by USA Hockey standards. If an association is using a facility such as Acceleration, Velocity or Fhit would these organizations have to comply with USA Hockey rules and regulations? It is my understanding that anyone working with a player/team during a "scheduled team function" must be rostered with that team and must be USA Hockey certified at the proper level for the player/team that they are working with. This would include power skating coaches, shooting instructors, sports psychologists, guest coaches and off ice instructors. USA hockey also requires that anyone working with a player/team have a background check and if they are on the ice they need to wear a helmet. I know for a fact that one of these organizations does not require background checks for it's instructors and some instructors are USA Hockey certified, but they may not be certified for the group that they are working with. I know that some players choose to work with these organizations on their own, but alot of associations make it manditory and put these off ice training sessions on the teams schedule. If these organizations do not meet USA Hockey standards could a player/coach/team/youth program be fined, would a team have to forfeit games or a team/youth program lose it's USA Hockey insurance? In the future will these organizations have to comply with USA hockey standards or is it legal the way it is? Let me know what you think!

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:08 pm

Leave It To Beaver wrote:There are many associations across the state that are using off ice training centers during the season and I am wondering if this is actually legal by USA Hockey standards. If an association is using a facility such as Acceleration, Velocity or Fhit would these organizations have to comply with USA Hockey rules and regulations? It is my understanding that anyone working with a player/team during a "scheduled team function" must be rostered with that team and must be USA Hockey certified at the proper level for the player/team that they are working with. This would include power skating coaches, shooting instructors, sports psychologists, guest coaches and off ice instructors. USA hockey also requires that anyone working with a player/team have a background check and if they are on the ice they need to wear a helmet. I know for a fact that one of these organizations does not require background checks for it's instructors and some instructors are USA Hockey certified, but they may not be certified for the group that they are working with. I know that some players choose to work with these organizations on their own, but alot of associations make it manditory and put these off ice training sessions on the teams schedule. If these organizations do not meet USA Hockey standards could a player/coach/team/youth program be fined, would a team have to forfeit games or a team/youth program lose it's USA Hockey insurance? In the future will these organizations have to comply with USA hockey standards or is it legal the way it is? Let me know what you think!

Why all the hostility towards FHIT? Are you a former employee or something?

Leave It To Beaver · Post by **Leave It To Beaver** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:20 pm

Why all the hostility towards FHIT? Are you a former employee or something?

No, I'm a 25 year coach who's smarter then that!
Obviously you can not help me with this post, so is there anyone else who can? Thanks in Advance!

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:37 pm

Leave It To Beaver wrote:
Why all the hostility towards FHIT? Are you a former employee or something?
No, I'm a 25 year coach who's smarter then that!
Obviously you can not help me with this post, so is there anyone else who can? Thanks in Advance!

Alrighty then. Read page 24 of the USA Hockey "Summary of Insurance Converage For Members". It basically says that off-ice training can be conducted as long as "proper precautions to prevent injuries" take place..and if there are any questions, they should contact their District Risk Manager.

You still haven't said why you have all this hate for FHIT, AM and others.

toe drag · Post by **toe drag** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:54 pm

I don't think there was any "hate" here. There was a question, you found an answer to the question. I think the initial post just listed a few examples. No reason to start something when there isn't anything there.

Leave It To Beaver · Post by **Leave It To Beaver** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:21 am

muckandgrind, if you go to the USA Hockey web site and pull down the coaching certification rules and requirements tab you will find all of the examples that I had mentioned. I am wondering why these organizations do not comply With USA Hockey and could youth programs be penalized for their lack of compliance.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:44 am

I think, rather than a troublemaking post, it may save trouble or money for an association. Before an association requires it, they might want to know the exact answer to this question for liability reasons. As a family, we've never had an association team require it, it was offered on a voluntary basis for team members to sign up and pay individually not via the association or team checkbooks.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:22 am

Does USA Hockey really enforce these rules? Minnesota Hockey seems to consider them to be more guidelines than actual rules. If a non-certified, non-rostered dad hops on the bench from time to time, that's OK. If a B team scrimmages a C team, that's probably fine if the B team isn't very good. So if a dryland instructor can teach your kid athleticism, it could be overlooked that he didn't sit through Level certification courses...until someone points out that USA and MN are missing out on their fees, then there will be some accountability - for the sake of the kids, of course.

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:27 am

A Dad cannot just hop on the ice without being on the roster and having the proper CEP.

spencer22 · Post by **spencer22** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:03 am

There are a lot of Rules in USA, MN, District and Local Associations that are not followed and the only repercussions are if you are "Not" friends with the people in charge. I have been around this game for many years as a Coach, Board member, District member, parent, and so on. I have seen so many rule violations where the perpetrator is not penalized. I can say the sport has actually gone down hill in regards to overall integrity.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:42 am

Leave It To Beaver wrote:muckandgrind, if you go to the USA Hockey web site and pull down the coaching certification rules and requirements tab you will find all of the examples that I had mentioned. I am wondering why these organizations do not comply With USA Hockey and could youth programs be penalized for their lack of compliance.

I'm familiar with those coaching requirements. When there is a dry land team function, the rostered coach is still the guy in charge of his team, no matter what facility they are at. The instructor running their treadmill at Acceleration innesota or running the player through the plyometric drills at FHIT are not considered "coaches", and thus don't need to be rostered. It's up to the "ice hockey coach" to make sure the environment is safe and to take any precaution necessary to prevent injury. That being said, I'm fairly positive that most, if not all, instructors at the places you mention are registered with USA Hockey.

"Off ice" and "on ice" are not considered the same when it comes to who is allowed to be included.

If you don't believe me, do like I said, contact your local District Risk Manager, they will tell you the same thing.

It's highly doubtful that you are the first person to ask these questions before.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:50 am

Perhaps a dad shouldn't be allowed to hop on the ice or hop on the bench, but he certainly can. The association is suppose to self-monitor, self-regulate, self-discipline, but if the association likes the guy, or he plays cards with the board VP, who's to know? The district is suppose to oversee the associations, the state oversees the district, the farmer takes a wife and the mouse takes the cheese. In most cases the rules are only dusted off to punish someone who isn't in lock step with the rest of the lemmings.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:52 am

The fact that this is even being discussed only shows how intrusive USA Hockey has become to our kids. Some people are afraid to do anything hockey-related without the blessing and approval from the almighty USA Hockey.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:16 am

Sadly, if something terrible happens on or off the ice (e.g. the cross-over-tilt-a-whirl malfunctions and tosses a kid, or a kid is simply not paying attention during a warm-up lap and runs into something), having all the I's dotted and T's crossed may ensure the catastrophic insurance coverage, but the level of litigiomania in our society, and the human nature of needing someone to blame, could lead to lawsuits naming the arena, the association, the hotdog vendor, and the coach.

CasseauCougar · Post by **CasseauCougar** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:09 pm

I always wondered about this. Besides the training facilities mentioned in the first post, there's Bernie's Breakfast Club, there's stuff going on before school in Plymouth, Bugstad has his shooting school, there's Stauber... I'm not singling out any of these, but how far can MN Hockey go to limit the use of businesses?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:18 pm

CasseauCougar wrote:I always wondered about this. Besides the training facilities mentioned in the first post, there's Bernie's Breakfast Club, there's stuff going on before school in Plymouth, Bugstad has his shooting school, there's Stauber... I'm not singling out any of these, but how far can MN Hockey go to limit the use of businesses?

Everything you listed is individual stuff, not "team functions". USA Hockey or MN Hockey have no control over these, nor should they.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:43 pm

CasseauCougar wrote:I always wondered about this. Besides the training facilities mentioned in the first post, there's Bernie's Breakfast Club, there's stuff going on before school in Plymouth, Bugstad has his shooting school, there's Stauber... I'm not singling out any of these, but how far can MN Hockey go to limit the use of businesses?

those are all covered by the waiver the parents sign and the individual businesses' insurances. We'd all like to think that the background check thing is not really necessary but it could devastate a child and a local hockey association if there is an inappropriate relationship. Maybe the background check catches some of that and maybe it is just CYA.

CasseauCougar · Post by **CasseauCougar** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:54 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
CasseauCougar wrote:I always wondered about this. Besides the training facilities mentioned in the first post, there's Bernie's Breakfast Club, there's stuff going on before school in Plymouth, Bugstad has his shooting school, there's Stauber... I'm not singling out any of these, but how far can MN Hockey go to limit the use of businesses?
Everything you listed is individual stuff, not "team functions". USA Hockey or MN Hockey have no control over these, nor should they.

So if it's an individual trying out or even just playing pond hockey with a AAA team, would this be OK too?

Leave It To Beaver · Post by **Leave It To Beaver** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:56 pm

"Off ice" and "on ice" are not considered the same when it comes to who is allowed to be included.

muckandgrind, I am still not convinced! You haven't explained why there is a difference in that a person who is not certified and not the rostered coach/"guy in charge" is not allowed on the ice, while a person who is not certified and not the rostered coach/"guy in charge" is allowed to run off ice training. Is it because one has a label of "Off Ice Instructor" or is it because one is run on ice and the other is not. As always I will wait for your insightful/helpful and positive response!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:57 pm

MH (and perhaps USAH) are concerned about the kids.

If an event is taking place under the guise of MH it should follow the MH rules. Of course, Big Brother (from Orwell's book - 1984 for those too young or educated somewhere other thatn where I was) does not exist.
As a district director (and the others will say the same) we do not go looking for things - they find us.

So, if an association signs up a team to do certain off-ice things with certain off-ice coaches, trainers whatever you will call them, then the association better make sure those people are screened (background check). Other than that - do what you think will work.

As far as a dad jumping on the ice or in the box to help - don't do it. If needed get advance approval. Its easy in D16 send me an email with the info.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:00 pm

Leave It To Beaver wrote:
"Off ice" and "on ice" are not considered the same when it comes to who is allowed to be included.
muckandgrind, I am still not convinced! You haven't explained why there is a difference in that a person who is not certified and not the rostered coach/"guy in charge" is not allowed on the ice, while a person who is not certified and not the rostered coach/"guy in charge" is allowed to run off ice training. Is it because one has a label of "Off Ice Instructor" or is it because one is run on ice and the other is not. As always I will wait for your insightful/helpful and positive response!

One is for coaching the game of hockey and in-charge of the team (with assistants). The other is for non-hockey 'stuff', not on the ice, and not in charge of the team. I fhte flavor of what these off-ice people are doing chnages, then they may need to be certified etc...

If it is not team/assn originated, then so be it. Do what you want.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:03 pm

CasseauCougar wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
CasseauCougar wrote:I always wondered about this. Besides the training facilities mentioned in the first post, there's Bernie's Breakfast Club, there's stuff going on before school in Plymouth, Bugstad has his shooting school, there's Stauber... I'm not singling out any of these, but how far can MN Hockey go to limit the use of businesses?
Everything you listed is individual stuff, not "team functions". USA Hockey or MN Hockey have no control over these, nor should they.
So if it's an individual trying out or even just playing pond hockey with a AAA team, would this be OK too?

If it is a team or asscoiation function the rules need to be followed.

Example, at the HS state tourney some mite programs skated between periods. Some coaches wore their helmets some did not.
Those that did not were in violation of the rules. Fortunately for them they were not from D16 so I did not have to do something AND the rest of MH people there did not see it (I hope). But that would be a rule infraction and subject to whatever penalties the district provides for this.

spencer22 · Post by **spencer22** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:26 pm

I do not know how to copy a section and paste it like I see others do. But MY POINT EXACLTY. Your association the rule should be followed, but for what ever disctrict the mite teams were from it is not followed. "Different rules for different people".

Leave It To Beaver · Post by **Leave It To Beaver** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:52 pm

elliot70, Thanks for the info! As a parent/coach/concerned citizen what course of action should be taken if an association requires the use of one of these organizations that is in violation of the MH rules?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:54 pm

spencer22 wrote:I do not know how to copy a section and paste it like I see others do. But MY POINT EXACLTY. Your association the rule should be followed, but for what ever disctrict the mite teams were from it is not followed. "Different rules for different people".

Use the quote button.
Or highlite and then right key on mouse then 'copy'.

Districts are different in a variety of ways, the rules are therefore applied in a variety of different ways.
Running D16 is differetn than D6. D6 has to do things a certain way to maintain control. D16 we have a differetn system.

All assn and team within D16 are governed by the same rules. What the punishment might be will vary bsaed on some things that perhaps only I am knowledgeable about. I am not the person to worry about D10 in this case as I believe they were Blaine mite. If Tim timm would ask me I would tellhim what I saw, but I am not raising the issue because I do not need more to do, and I am sure Tim Timm does not need MH people running down D10 assn to find things that are not done 100% correct.

We need to keep some degree of common sense.
A coach that does not have a background check (or did not pass), that is important to me (as well as other DDs, I am sure). If a Dad needs to help on the pee-wee B1 bench sometimes without a Certified Card, so what, as long as they let me know and I can ive it my blessing adn thus give them some degree of protection.

A real life example,
when signing off on rosters early this season, my red stamp broke. We signed off and wrote no red stamp on the roster. I sent a note across MH to various people and told them that teams may show up without a red stamp, just my signature, but they were good to go.

I got a few calls from teams where they were not going to let them play because no red stamp on the roster. Its a rule, but use your heads people.

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Are Off Ice Training Facilities Legal During the Season?

Are Off Ice Training Facilities Legal During the Season?

Re: Are Off Ice Training Facilities Legal During the Season?