How much is the fire including travel

[royals dad]

Also please understand that I believe it is like Anarchy and Democracy existing in the same place, it does not work. We have a unique situation in Minnesota and it allows us a unique system, no other state can have what we have. I strongly believe it would be a shame to loose it.

Yes I agree .. That's why I think the mounting pressure for choice should be handled within the current structure so that years of hard work are not lost for the want of a little more freedom of choice. Call it what you will, AAA, Tier 1, or super A, the choice league, the Fire, The dirty SOBs, it doesn't matter, the pressure will continue. I think that it is in the interest of everyone associated with Minnesota hockey to start looking for a solution, rather than ignoring the problem.

Not new or mounting. I think when the first 2 dutch kids tied blades to their shoes and went off happily down the frozen canal ones dad looked out the window and complained about the coaching. Disgruntled parents are as much a part of hockey as ice and pucks. Every association, heck every team almost has a Mr Bo. You see them in the upper reaches or the atrium of the arena. Whispering to the other parents trying to build support for their cause. Their kid has been maligned or mistreated in some way by the coach or association. What is new is that they can now come on a message board behind a moniker and say the same thing to hundreds of people. What I am posting is essentially what I have always said when approached by them at the arena. We have a good system that can be used to solve your problems if you want to take the time and effort. It might not be a perfect system but no system is.

I have really been struck lately by the obits of some of the old timers who have passed. They literally dedicated their entire adult lives to Minnesota Hockey, well after their kids even grand kids had gone through they still worked (mostly for no $$$) to make the system better and more viable. Often with Mr Bo's tossing rotten tomatoes at them. All that work has resulted in the system we have today and we owe it to those who have put all the work in at every level to not throw it all away. If you think a couple Fire teams will not effect all of us your are dead wrong, we will winter will be like summer and the feeder programs will be irreversibly harmed. I have seen it happen to Minnesota fastpitch would hate to see it happen to Hockey.

[USA! USA! USA!]

We have a unique situation in Minnesota and it allows us a unique system, no other state can have what we have. I strongly believe it would be a shame to loose it.

I don't think Bo and Quasar are suggesting we lose it. They are saying we can add on to it. Continue building it. Offer more options ... in some cases better options for different situations.

If this is the great state of hockey, and with all of our numbers in close proximity, then why do kids in other states enjoy more hockey options than we have with local A, B & C.

[BadgerBob82]

Mr. Bo: If I am understanding you, your association has no rink? Your association does not field an "A" team. Your association does not play at the "B1" level, but chooses to play at the "B2" level? Would seem any "A" level or even "B1" level player would be an easy candidate for a waiver to a neighboring program that actually has a full field of teams? And all this is your basis for Tier 1 and saying MN Hockey is in the stoneage?

The more you talk the sillier you sound. I will say again, I have a mental picture of you. Never played hockey growing up. Your kid is pretty good, or has been at the younger age. You see him as the best kid in your association and playing with kids of lesser ability. You think if he could play with a team full of kids as good or better, that would somehow make you kid better? Correct me if I have your situation pictured wrong.

Seems to me if your house is located in an area with a almost nonexistant hockey program, and you are willing to do whatever it takes to get your kid in a decent hockey program, you need to quit being selfish and move. Good grief, you want everyone else to upend the MN Hockey model because you live in a bad hockey association?

Reminds me of the joke where Lena calls Ole on his cell phone saying to be careful driving to work as the TV is saying an idiot is driving the wrong way down the freeway. Ole replies ONE IDIOT? There's 100's of idiots driving the wrong way here!

[Quasar]

Yes I agree .. That's why I think the mounting pressure for choice should be handled within the current structure so that years of hard work are not lost for the want of a little more freedom of choice. Call it what you will, AAA, Tier 1, or super A, the choice league, the Fire, The dirty SOBs, it doesn't matter, the pressure will continue. I think that it is in the interest of everyone associated with Minnesota hockey to start looking for a solution, rather than ignoring the problem.

Not new or mounting. I think when the first 2 dutch kids tied blades to their shoes and went off happily down the frozen canal ones dad looked out the window and complained about the coaching. Disgruntled parents are as much a part of hockey as ice and pucks. Every association, heck every team almost has a Mr Bo. You see them in the upper reaches or the atrium of the arena. Whispering to the other parents trying to build support for their cause. Their kid has been maligned or mistreated in some way by the coach or association. What is new is that they can now come on a message board behind a moniker and say the same thing to hundreds of people. What I am posting is essentially what I have always said when approached by them at the arena. We have a good system that can be used to solve your problems if you want to take the time and effort. It might not be a perfect system but no system is.

I have really been struck lately by the obits of some of the old timers who have passed. They literally dedicated their entire adult lives to Minnesota Hockey, well after their kids even grand kids had gone through they still worked (mostly for no $$$) to make the system better and more viable. Often with Mr Bo's tossing rotten tomatoes at them. All that work has resulted in the system we have today and we owe it to those who have put all the work in at every level to not throw it all away. If you think a couple Fire teams will not effect all of us your are dead wrong, we will winter will be like summer and the feeder programs will be irreversibly harmed. I have seen it happen to Minnesota fastpitch would hate to see it happen to Hockey.

It's hard to argue with someone that brings Hans Brinker into the conversation. (I did Powderhorn park in the 50's with Planerts on my feet). That being said, I too have dealt with many parents from the most verbal/political, to the ones that use the program as their own private babysitter service. Still I have not hardened my position to state flatly that what we have is the best there is, and if you really believe what you say, then I'm afraid I think you're the one that is dead wrong.

That does not mean we have to hurl rotten tomato's at anyone

[USA! USA! USA!]

The more you talk the sillier you sound. I will say again, I have a mental picture of you.

... um Bob ... you are starting to worry me ... is Bo wearing something sexy in this mental picture?

[Quasar]

Mr. Bo: If I am understanding you, your association has no rink? Your association does not field an "A" team. Your association does not play at the "B1" level, but chooses to play at the "B2" level? Would seem any "A" level or even "B1" level player would be an easy candidate for a waiver to a neighboring program that actually has a full field of teams? And all this is your basis for Tier 1 and saying MN Hockey is in the stoneage?

The more you talk the sillier you sound. I will say again, I have a mental picture of you. Never played hockey growing up. Your kid is pretty good, or has been at the younger age. You see him as the best kid in your association and playing with kids of lesser ability. You think if he could play with a team full of kids as good or better, that would somehow make you kid better? Correct me if I have your situation pictured wrong.

Seems to me if your house is located in an area with a almost nonexistant hockey program, and you are willing to do whatever it takes to get your kid in a decent hockey program, you need to quit being selfish and move. Good grief, you want everyone else to upend the MN Hockey model because you live in a bad hockey association?

Reminds me of the joke where Lena calls Ole on his cell phone saying to be careful driving to work as the TV is saying an idiot is driving the wrong way down the freeway. Ole replies ONE IDIOT? There's 100's of idiots driving the wrong way here!

I'm sure Bo needs no protection from me or anyone else.. But ... Badger Bippy, you really have to pull your head out of that orifice and look around.. Ole and Lena jokes .. I know your better than that.

[USA! USA! USA!]

Disgruntled parents are as much a part of hockey as ice and pucks. Every association, heck every team almost has a Mr Bo. You see them in the upper reaches or the atrium of the arena. Whispering to the other parents trying to build support for their cause.

Embrace the disgruntled. They let you know how you can improve. Lee Iococa said it's not the disgruntled customer you have to worry about. You have to worry about those that don't complain and simply go elsewhere. The disgruntled customer says what others are thinking and is therefore a great asset, as he allows you to improve.

Every advancement of modern time (and ancient time) began with the disgruntled.

- When people became disgruntled with the horse and buggy, the automobile emerged.

- Pesticides were very (and still are) controversial, but enough farmers became disgruntled with damaged crops and BOOM - DDT was born.

- Disgruntled working by candle light, Edison invented electricity.

- When the masses became disgruntled with Pony Express, Bell gave them the telephone

- The status quo fought hard the hockey helmet, but the disgruntled mounted and eventually the helmet was forced on us. Dido the facemask, mouthguard and in some areas, neckguard.

We have a good system that can be used to solve your problems if you want to take the time and effort. It might not be a perfect system but no system is.

Yah. That's what the opponents of the telephone, electricity, indoor plumbing, etc. said. That's also what the opponents of the hockey helmet said. In fact, that's the battle cry of the Status Quo - the same people who refuse to relinquish power, but rather, sit back and arrogantly declare "convince me!"

I have really been struck lately by the obits of some of the old timers who have passed. They literally dedicated their entire adult lives to Minnesota Hockey, well after their kids even grand kids had gone through they still worked (mostly for no $$$) to make the system better and more viable.

Some stayed on for other, more selfish reasons. Control being chief among them. Sometimes you need to recognize when your time to step down has come. Let the younger stakeholders do for their generation what you did for yours.

All that work has resulted in the system we have today and we owe it to those who have put all the work in at every level to not throw it all away.

Indeed, we need to honor theior efforts by continuing to build on the system, answering today's needs with today's solutions. Just as they did in their time.

If you think a couple Fire teams will not effect all of us your are dead wrong, we will winter will be like summer and the feeder programs will be irreversibly harmed.

That "Sky is Falling" mentality doesn't help anything. Minnesota Hockey has over 55,000 registered. If 5,000 were playing a different level that doesn't change anything. In fact, it has a ripple effect and everybody moves up. People said the Elite League would ill High School Hockey and that hasn't happened either. Relax, it's just kids playing a game.

I have seen it happen to Minnesota fastpitch would hate to see it happen to Hockey.

The only thing that happened to Minnesota Fastpitch is , well, Minnesota Fastpitch. Let's face it - if the only place you can find the sport on TV is "The Ocho", ESPN8 during the Olympics every 4 years, then the sport has problems than Tier play.

[USA! USA! USA!]

I think I just saw Badger driving the wrong way on 694 ... is that a Model T Bob?

[royals dad]

YouSA, No Poetry? I had such high hopes for your post as you Casey post was a classic. Alas your history lesson was a bit off. You think that the combustion engine and electric filament where responses to consumer complaints? Not quite. Visionaries who wouldn't listen to people who told them it was impossible yes (who also never made a fraction of the money their inventions did)? But as I have pointed out sometimes we allow people to bring us Carp, Buckthorn, and buses over streetcars telling us they are great and it turns out we are stuck with something that sucks. Kinda like the sucking sound coming out of Lee's GM and Detroit. I have seen everything from the Holocaust to the confederate south used as an analogy for the plight of those constrained by geographic borders in youth hockey. While I don't think Hockey would die in Minnesota if we went tier 1 I do think we would loose some of our strengths and our numbers would shrink.

You also have me a bit mispegged, my kids still go all the way down to mites. I took my 1st travel team on before I was out of college so I am not an old crony but have been in this for a long time.

As for fastpitch the arguments and the background to me is strikingly similar but if it cant be an example because it is a non revenue/tv sport then so be it. Be careful with that a litmus test however because that would put hockey as less important than bowling, WWE, extreme fighting, professional bass fishing,.....

[Quasar]

Royals Dad Said

"I don't think Hockey would die in Minnesota if we went tier 1"

I know ..I know.. It's out of context ..But it's true...

USA ..USA ..USA is a creative person with a quick mind.. Think about the ideas presented. Using examples to prove a point is acceptable ..even if it's a stretch sometimes.

[USA! USA! USA!]

Be careful with that a litmus test however because that would put hockey as less important than bowling, WWE, extreme fighting, professional bass fishing,.....

you mean it isn't?

I wasn't trying to peg you. Just pointing out that the status quo has always resisted change ... and the old codgers you are refering to have brought Minnesota Hockey to where it is haven't always ben the Status Quo.

At one time they themselves may have been amongst the disgruntled ones who brought about changes to the game and the affiliate in response to the issues of their time. Goalie masks, Hockey helmets, Tiered levels (A, B & C), the community model, facemasks, Residency rules, Open enrollment etc. etc.

Tier 1 AAA hockey may not be the solution it's proponents think it is, but it also isn't the monster it's opponents make it out to be. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth, which I suspect amounts to little more than personal choice ... and what's wrong with that? I like Tiger-Tiger and you like Vanilla ... so what

[USA! USA! USA!]

YouSA, No Poetry?

well, ok ... just this once for you.

Here's a twist on a Rudyard Kipling classic, "THE CHOICE"


The Minnesota Hockey Family speaks:

To the Judge of Right and Wrong
With Whom fulfillment lies
Our purpose and our power belong,
Our faith and sacrifice.


Let Freedom's land rejoice!
Our ancient bonds are riven;
Once more to us the eternal choice
Of what to play is given.


Not at a little cost,
Hardly by prayer or tears,
Shall we recover the road we lost
In the drugged and doubting years.


But after the FIRE and the wrath,
But after searching and pain,
His Mercy opens us a path
To make our choice again.


In the Rinks of Ice rejoice!
We see and hold the good --
Bear witness, we have made our choice
For Freedom's brotherhood.


Then pray the Minnesota Board
Isn't toally insane,
Who bade us choose restrictions die
And not the love of game!


ok, my day pass is expiring. I'm gonna grab my bongos and head back to the Infirmary ... good luck all!

[MrBoDangles]

Mr. Bo: If I am understanding you, your association has no rink? Your association does not field an "A" team. Your association does not play at the "B1" level, but chooses to play at the "B2" level? Would seem any "A" level or even "B1" level player would be an easy candidate for a waiver to a neighboring program that actually has a full field of teams? And all this is your basis for Tier 1 and saying MN Hockey is in the stoneage?

The more you talk the sillier you sound. I will say again, I have a mental picture of you. Never played hockey growing up. Your kid is pretty good, or has been at the younger age. You see him as the best kid in your association and playing with kids of lesser ability. You think if he could play with a team full of kids as good or better, that would somehow make you kid better? Correct me if I have your situation pictured wrong.

Seems to me if your house is located in an area with a almost nonexistant hockey program, and you are willing to do whatever it takes to get your kid in a decent hockey program, you need to quit being selfish and move. Good grief, you want everyone else to upend the MN Hockey model because you live in a bad hockey association?

Reminds me of the joke where Lena calls Ole on his cell phone saying to be careful driving to work as the TV is saying an idiot is driving the wrong way down the freeway. Ole replies ONE IDIOT? There's 100's of idiots driving the wrong way here!

- Have you had to waive your kids out to another association? Can you imagine your kids group that has played together many years having out of towners bump a couple off their A team? Do you know the reception the kids get from the whole association when they know they're not a part of the teams HS future. Do you want to talk about feeling like an outsider? Can you possibly understand it's not like that in a Fire type program?

- The picture I have of you is a wrinkly old guy that thinks that the Minnesota model is good enough for everyone. Probably has a kid that played in a decent association and now has a grandkid that plays in a good association. Pretty much an old guy with little common sense sums it up.......

- Move? So my kid can play at a proper level? With hockey options families can live WHERE THEY WANT TO. Quit being selfish? You make the perfect case for why options are needed with these comments.

- Lack of concern for all the kids under the Minnesota model shows just how low class you are.

[MrBoDangles]

Yes I agree .. That's why I think the mounting pressure for choice should be handled within the current structure so that years of hard work are not lost for the want of a little more freedom of choice. Call it what you will, AAA, Tier 1, or super A, the choice league, the Fire, The dirty SOBs, it doesn't matter, the pressure will continue. I think that it is in the interest of everyone associated with Minnesota hockey to start looking for a solution, rather than ignoring the problem.

Not new or mounting. I think when the first 2 dutch kids tied blades to their shoes and went off happily down the frozen canal ones dad looked out the window and complained about the coaching. Disgruntled parents are as much a part of hockey as ice and pucks. Every association, heck every team almost has a Mr Bo. You see them in the upper reaches or the atrium of the arena. Whispering to the other parents trying to build support for their cause. Their kid has been maligned or mistreated in some way by the coach or association. What is new is that they can now come on a message board behind a moniker and say the same thing to hundreds of people. What I am posting is essentially what I have always said when approached by them at the arena. We have a good system that can be used to solve your problems if you want to take the time and effort. It might not be a perfect system but no system is.

I have really been struck lately by the obits of some of the old timers who have passed. They literally dedicated their entire adult lives to Minnesota Hockey, well after their kids even grand kids had gone through they still worked (mostly for no $$$) to make the system better and more viable. Often with Mr Bo's tossing rotten tomatoes at them. All that work has resulted in the system we have today and we owe it to those who have put all the work in at every level to not throw it all away. If you think a couple Fire teams will not effect all of us your are dead wrong, we will winter will be like summer and the feeder programs will be irreversibly harmed. I have seen it happen to Minnesota fastpitch would hate to see it happen to Hockey.

-Cry a river old man because change is coming..... People are seeing the real Hockey world through AAA summer hockey. When they see how third world and political their winter association are they get wise. Maybe you can help the talented kids in far from ideal winter situations. You can have it in your obit that you helped ALL KIDS have equal opportunities.

[GreekChurch]

Bitter Much

[Wrister]

1. Who cares how much the Fire costs. That is the parents business.
2. Why would Minnesota ever go to a Tier 1 program when all they have to do is set back and watch Minnesota kids go over to Wisconsin, try out and then come back to Minnesota and play all of their practices here. MN Hockey doesn't have any of the head aches and they can point to WAHA regarding issues and problems. If WAHA would have the back bone to stop this nonsense and require residency for their Tier 1 program, then maybe MN Hockey will need to step up and do something to allow it within Minnesota.

[MrBoDangles]

Mr. Bo: You sure have a stupid answer for everything. Again, my mental picture of you is the guy pressed up to the glass, leaning into every cross-over your kid is making on the ice, bobbing around as he ducks checks from bigger kids, giving hand signals to him between whistles, then screaming at the refs for a missed offside call. Yep, I see idiots like that at every rink. And they all want you to know their little kid wears 87 because he loves Sydney Crosby and wants to be just like him.

You are an idiot. Plain and simple. You're kid is just too good for where ever he will play. Ever wonder why nobody stands by you pressed up to the glass?

We have had many families from our small town that have realized that our association did not have a fit for their kid. From our small association 40 traveling skaters we have a
97 that plays for the Blades/ Fire
98 that plays for the Blades- moved
00 that plays for the Machine- moved
All are from great families that knew their kids were on a dead end road. Some opted out young and drove two hours one way for the Choice league. There are a few more that are having a hard time finding a place to play at a proper level.
Cambridge-Isanti has a very interesting story..... C-I had 7-8 kids leave in their Bantam years. These kids were very strong players, but after them the talent fell of hard. They were for the most part always passed by for political reasons for advanced teams, selects, etc. As soon as they got to their knew schools like Blaine, Hill Murray etc... They pretty much all made their section advanced teams and a couple went to USA nationals.

I'm happy for and proud of all of these kids.

I understand your reasoning for wanting to keep a good thing for the better programs. I can put myself in your shoes, but try to put yourself in someone elses shoes.

Think what you want.....

[Quasar]

Mr. Bo: You sure have a stupid answer for everything. Again, my mental picture of you is the guy pressed up to the glass, leaning into every cross-over your kid is making on the ice, bobbing around as he ducks checks from bigger kids, giving hand signals to him between whistles, then screaming at the refs for a missed offside call. Yep, I see idiots like that at every rink. And they all want you to know their little kid wears 87 because he loves Sydney Crosby and wants to be just like him.

You are an idiot. Plain and simple. You're kid is just too good for where ever he will play. Ever wonder why nobody stands by you pressed up to the glass?

You know when my kid was skating I used to hang over the boards (no glass). Now my grandson is skating and I'm pressed up against the glass right next to my son.. We both played the game, and I will admit we have a passion for it still. In the winter we play keep away. 3 generations. I always lose now, but it's fun. Your entitled to your opinion, but every game I go to I see a lot of guys pressed up against the glass. My kid used to wear #4 on his jersey.. Nobody ever called him or me an idiot because we loved the game.. You need to lighten up a bit.

[InigoMontoya]

I feel compelled to stand by the glass, because I can't stand to listen to many of the folks in the stands. How one can follow his kid through mites, squirts, and peewees, into bantams and still know absolutely nothing about the game is sad; and still not be able to recognize any of the other kids on the ice is rude; and be an eight year member on the board is inexcusable.

My youngest wears #14 because an older brother wears it; I HOPE the youngest ends up just like him.

I don't think Bob needs to lighten up - be passionate. I just don't understand how people genuinely dislike others because they don't agree with them. I disagree with most everything that a very good friend believes; that's one of the many reasons he's a very good friend.

[Quasar]

I feel compelled to stand by the glass, because I can't stand to listen to many of the folks in the stands. How one can follow his kid through mites, squirts, and peewees, into bantams and still know absolutely nothing about the game is sad; and still not be able to recognize any of the other kids on the ice is rude; and be an eight year member on the board is inexcusable.

My youngest wears #14 because an older brother wears it; I HOPE the youngest ends up just like him.

I don't think Bob needs to lighten up - be passionate. I just don't understand how people genuinely dislike others because they don't agree with them. I disagree with most everything that a very good friend believes; that's one of the many reasons he's a very good friend.

I believe in passion .... It was a polite way to urge him to stop with the blanket idiot statements.. Now I may or may not be an idiot, but as you say ..That's for my good friends to determine..

[O-townClown]

I believe in passion .... It was a polite way to urge him to stop with the blanket idiot statements.. Now I may or may not be an idiot, but as you say ..That's for my good friends to determine..

So blanket idiot statements are out of line, but namecalling is fine. Gotcha. I'm just trying to keep up.

Makes sense now.

[Quasar]

I believe in passion .... It was a polite way to urge him to stop with the blanket idiot statements.. Now I may or may not be an idiot, but as you say ..That's for my good friends to determine..

So blanket idiot statements are out of line, but namecalling is fine. Gotcha. I'm just trying to keep up.

Makes sense now.

Hi O Town,

No, name calling is not fine and should be avoided. I am Badger Bob in many ways. Opinionated, loud, sure of my self, no shrinking violet.. So when I smell BS I know it... I don't need some one to tell me what that particular odor is ..And if I lost my cool, and called someone a name .. all I can say is "The Devil made me do it"

[karl(east)]

Since we are digressing into a discussion of name-calling, I'll weigh in. Passion is a wonderful thing, and has made this forum very busy and interesting this summer. But we also need some sense of perspective. I've been deleting more posts than usual lately due to petty name-calling and insults; this is something I'd rather avoid. All sides in all the major debates are guilty of it. It's important to step back and recognize that insults tend to make the poster look juvenile, and often hurt the cause more than they help it.

But for the most part, the debate has been very interesting, and I'm glad to see this forum playing a role in some of the big questions surrounding contemporary Minnesota hockey. I've learned a lot. Keep it up.

[Quasar]

Since we are digressing into a discussion of name-calling, I'll weigh in. Passion is a wonderful thing, and has made this forum very busy and interesting this summer. But we also need some sense of perspective. I've been deleting more posts than usual lately due to petty name-calling and insults; this is something I'd rather avoid. All sides in all the major debates are guilty of it. It's important to step back and recognize that insults tend to make the poster look juvenile, and often hurt the cause more than they help it.

But for the most part, the debate has been very interesting, and I'm glad to see this forum playing a role in some of the big questions surrounding contemporary Minnesota hockey. I've learned a lot. Keep it up.

Hear ..Hear ...I'll try to do better in the future!!

[O-townClown]

Since we are digressing into a discussion of name-calling, I'll weigh in. Passion is a wonderful thing, and has made this forum very busy and interesting this summer. But we also need some sense of perspective. I've been deleting more posts than usual lately due to petty name-calling and insults; this is something I'd rather avoid. All sides in all the major debates are guilty of it. It's important to step back and recognize that insults tend to make the poster look juvenile, and often hurt the cause more than they help it.

But for the most part, the debate has been very interesting, and I'm glad to see this forum playing a role in some of the big questions surrounding contemporary Minnesota hockey. I've learned a lot. Keep it up.

Karl, how old are you? I've gleaned that you are about 20. Kudos to you for proving you can be wise without being old and wise. Time and time and time again you make sense, even when I may not agree with you.

When the games start, hopefully you have time to continue with the rankings of Minnesota HS teams.