Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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Quasar
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Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by Quasar » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:11 am

Some one said “If you want to talk about that, start a different thread” So I’m starting this thread for any and all that want to discuss Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. I am on the pro side of the argument, and would prefer to have this thread be about how we can bring about Tier 1 hockey within the existing Minnesota youth hockey framework. We have heard all the pros and cons from everyone interested. Now, how about a constructive conversation with ideas about how Tier 1 can flourish in Minnesota. Opposing views are welcomed if they contribute to the overall goal of a workable Tier 1 plan for Minnesota. If not ..We will just ignore them. I have no dog in this fight. My coaching/Dad days were over long ago. Right now I have a late arriving grandson that will be playing Varsity next year. This is a battle for all you Dad’s that are just entering the program. Chances are that you will not have that one in twenty kid that will end up being an elite player, but even if you don’t, you should be interested in advancing the Minnesota program. I think it was Greybeard that suggested “if you want to do something about it make a presentation to the Board” or words to that effect. Before any resentation we need an idea to build the presentation around. I would like to start the conversation with my idea of how this could work. If you take district 2,3,6 and 10 you have covered the Area where most of the players reside. If each district fielded one Tier 1 team we would have 4 teams added to The Wisconsin Fire. This would be a start. The 4 Minnesota teams would have open enrollment. So no matter where you lived in the Metro, or the state, you could try out for any of the four teams. I am not familiar with the situation out state, but I’m sure there are plenty of you that can fill us in. The rules could be written to specify that these Tier 1 teams could only make roster changes once a year in November, and that they must hold “official scrimmages” with summer AAA teams. This would let the “Wild west “ Summer scene continue to be a place for development of all level kids, as it is now, while allowing the better summer programs to measure themselves against the top Minnesota players in any age group. The Tier 1 Elite teams would scrimmage with all Minnesota A Teams, as well as attending National Tier 1 events. By keeping most of the activity within the State costs could be held down. How the teams are formed within the Districts is a good place to start this conversation. My suggestion is to take the top team in each age group the District, and open it up to try outs for anyone. The reasoning being that all necessary mechanisms are in place. You could have Minor/major Peewee and Bantam teams selected by their district to be designated Tier 1 Elite. So you could have Hornets playing the Elks at another level. Might even level out the A level a little… Remember the kids can try out from any where in the state. Like many on this forum, I would like to see Tier 1 controlled by Minnesota Hockey. But I realize that is only my opinion. … What do you think???

HeShootsHeScores
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Post by HeShootsHeScores » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:41 am

When would these teams have their "regular" season? Would it be year round or would it replace association hockey for these kids?

Quasar
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Post by Quasar » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:06 pm

HeShootsHeScores wrote:When would these teams have their "regular" season? Would it be year round or would it replace association hockey for these kids?
I see their regular season during the winter same as all sanctioned Minnesota hockey. Because they are Elite players, I also see a summer season, which would be for staying in shape, and development.

I guess you could say I see it as a natural extension of what we already have. Minnesota hockey is registered with USA Hockey as Tier two, if I'm not mistaken, This would be adding the next level.

I think the top 3 or 4 A traveling teams in each age group can already compete at the Tier 1 level. But forming a few new teams might be the way to get started.

O-townClown
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Re: Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by O-townClown » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:58 pm

Quasar wrote:The 4 Minnesota teams would have open enrollment.

What do you think???
Okay, do these teams have paid coaches? How are they selected? Are they run as for-profit clubs? (In your scenario, the Edina Hockey Association could end up doing a lot of work for the rest of District 6, which doesn't make much sense.) What safeguards to parents have so they don't get hammered by the cost of travel? You indicated these teams will play in top events. (AAA Super Series, Bauer Invite, etc... are generally in places like St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Toronto, and Boston.) Lots of flights unless you plan on missing a lot of school.

What is the goal of having Tier I hockey in Minnesota? Is it to provide a supposedly higher level of play, to get all the best kids on the same few teams, to provide "relief" for the star players in lesser associations, to send a Minnesota team to nationals, or something else?

Regarding this open-enrollment. Can anyone play? I mean, when top Tier I teams regularly fly kids in and let them play for free it is pretty much business as usual. Are you prepared for the backlash when the for-profit guy running one of these teams decides he needs two kids from Seattle and one from Ohio to take things to the next level?

What do I think? I think it is hard to get consensus on what the goal is for having Tier I hockey in Minnesota.
Be kind. Rewind.

Quasar
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Re: Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by Quasar » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:55 am

O-townClown wrote:
Quasar wrote:The 4 Minnesota teams would have open enrollment.

What do you think???
Okay, do these teams have paid coaches? How are they selected? Are they run as for-profit clubs? (In your scenario, the Edina Hockey Association could end up doing a lot of work for the rest of District 6, which doesn't make much sense.) What safeguards to parents have so they don't get hammered by the cost of travel? You indicated these teams will play in top events. (AAA Super Series, Bauer Invite, etc... are generally in places like St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Toronto, and Boston.) Lots of flights unless you plan on missing a lot of school.

What is the goal of having Tier I hockey in Minnesota? Is it to provide a supposedly higher level of play, to get all the best kids on the same few teams, to provide "relief" for the star players in lesser associations, to send a Minnesota team to nationals, or something else?

Regarding this open-enrollment. Can anyone play? I mean, when top Tier I teams regularly fly kids in and let them play for free it is pretty much business as usual. Are you prepared for the backlash when the for-profit guy running one of these teams decides he needs two kids from Seattle and one from Ohio to take things to the next level?

What do I think? I think it is hard to get consensus on what the goal is for having Tier I hockey in Minnesota.
What I think is that some old dude from Wisconsin, and some know it all from Florida really have no business sticking their noses into whats going on in Minnesota. I just started this thread so that people that can actually do something about the future of Minnesota hockey can make their opinions known to each other. All the negatives that you and others bring to this conversation will have to be answered by the people that matter. Parents of kids playing hockey in Minnesota. I strongly believe that if Minnesota hockey does not come up with a way to incorporate Tier 1 into their program, the for profit people will running hockey in Minnesota within the next five years. That might not be a bad thing.. If the people that matter care enough to get their thoughts together on this forum .good. If not so be it. As for me .. I'm butting out....So should you

sorno82
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Post by sorno82 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:05 am

can make their opinions known to each other
Isn't that what he was doing? And I did not know you were limiting it to MN residents.

Here is a scenario to consider: If MN goes Tier 1, how many more top prospects can be created? If it is 1 in 1,000 right now, would creating 2 in 1,000 be worth it? Some would say you doubled it, others would say it is only 1 more (both are correct). Not for or against it, not sure if it makes a lot of difference in the end for potentially higher costs.

demongoed
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Post by demongoed » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:02 pm

Tier I hockey will never fit into the existing model in Minnesota. This proposition that it's just another option, an extension of what already exists is flawed simply because the goals of the 2 are at odds. The proponents of Tier I, whether they admit it or not, want to cherry pick the best players, no matter where they're from, and keep the weaker players out.

Association hockey in Minnesota strives to draw as many kids as possible in. It is rooted in each community's commitment to its kids, regardless of ability. It's built, nurtured, and sustained by community members. Is it perfect? No. Can all kids play at the A level? No. Are mistakes made about who is chosen to play at the A level? Yes. But at their core, associations usually provide a way for as many kids as possible to play the sport of hockey.

As long as the goals are at odds, it will be difficult to ever mesh the 2.

O-townClown
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Re: Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by O-townClown » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:43 pm

Quasar wrote:What I think is that some old dude from Wisconsin, and some know it all from Florida really have no business sticking their noses into whats going on in Minnesota.
If this is in reference to me, thanks for the compliment. And I have no involvement in governing hockey in Minnesota, so you needn't worry.
Be kind. Rewind.

sorno82
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Post by sorno82 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:21 pm

Tier 1 advocates should put your time and energy into coming up with a proposal or lawsuit instead of wasting time on gossip boards. It will be a lot more effective. I am sure you could get some traction with the Shattuck exception.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:02 pm

sorno82 wrote:Tier 1 advocates should put your time and energy into coming up with a proposal or lawsuit instead of wasting time on gossip boards. It will be a lot more effective. I am sure you could get some traction with the Shattuck exception.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
You would be surprised who is on this bored. Probably is smart for you to stop "wasting" your time and "get out of the way". :roll:

sorno82
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Post by sorno82 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:12 pm

I actually don't care one way or the other.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:28 pm

sorno82 wrote:I actually don't care one way or the other.
Then wouldn't that make you the one wasting your time?

sorno82
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Post by sorno82 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:41 pm

Guilty-most of the time on these boards is by definition a waste of time.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:52 pm

sorno82 wrote:Guilty-most of the time on these boards is by definition a waste of time.
Notified that there is a new comment by a computer in a phone....... Who would of thought possible??

Wrister
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Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by Wrister » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:29 am

If you are suggesting making four Minnesota teams why are you including the WISCONSIN Fire? This is a Wisconsin/WAHA program, or at least it is supposed to be, and as such let them play against the other legitimate WISCONSIN Tier 1 teams.

spin-o-rama
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Post by spin-o-rama » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:23 am

The reasoning for Tier I on this board contradicts like crazy – often in the same post:
- MN hockey is stronger than ever, MN is falling behind without Tier I.
- More AAA teams for 8-12 year olds in the last 5 years has led to more draft picks.
- It’s not fair for 4 kids to leave to play varsity, but kids need to be allowed to leave to play Tier I
- It’s not fair for kids to leave to play in the D level Rec league, but we don’t want them on the small association B team that also has A players.
- MH needs to allow total free agency for my kid to be able to pick what team he plays on, but MH needs to maintain rules to make sure his Tier I spot isn’t taken by someone else.

It is unrealistic to expect a few Tier I teams will remove all the problems of kids playing at the wrong level. There aren’t enough Tier I spots for those who think they should play it, just as there aren’t enough A spots for the A bubble kids, nor B spots for the B bubble kids.

The idea that Tier I is coming and MH can’t stop it is really ridiculous. MM is doing the best at being an independent league, but they are limited by their own ice. There are very few arenas that aren’t community owned and committed to associations that they can expand to or others can start up in. Until the lack of ice is resolved, there is no way.

Elliott70 mentioned MH was exploring mega-A level teams. It shows they are exploring ideas. They just can't rush to satisfy a special interest niche until determining if it will be a net benefit to the whole.

It's possible that Tier I will come to MN as the HPC clubs. The HPCs are still being figured out.

Maybe we just need to rename A as Tier I. Then everyone will be happy! It’s like Tom Pederson mocking AAA by starting a self designated AAAA team.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:54 pm

spin-o-rama wrote:The reasoning for Tier I on this board contradicts like crazy – often in the same post:
- MN hockey is stronger than ever, MN is falling behind without Tier I.
- More AAA teams for 8-12 year olds in the last 5 years has led to more draft picks.
- It’s not fair for 4 kids to leave to play varsity, but kids need to be allowed to leave to play Tier I
- It’s not fair for kids to leave to play in the D level Rec league, but we don’t want them on the small association B team that also has A players.
- MH needs to allow total free agency for my kid to be able to pick what team he plays on, but MH needs to maintain rules to make sure his Tier I spot isn’t taken by someone else.

It is unrealistic to expect a few Tier I teams will remove all the problems of kids playing at the wrong level. There aren’t enough Tier I spots for those who think they should play it, just as there aren’t enough A spots for the A bubble kids, nor B spots for the B bubble kids.

The idea that Tier I is coming and MH can’t stop it is really ridiculous. MM is doing the best at being an independent league, but they are limited by their own ice. There are very few arenas that aren’t community owned and committed to associations that they can expand to or others can start up in. Until the lack of ice is resolved, there is no way.

Elliott70 mentioned MH was exploring mega-A level teams. It shows they are exploring ideas. They just can't rush to satisfy a special interest niche until determining if it will be a net benefit to the whole.

It's possible that Tier I will come to MN as the HPC clubs. The HPCs are still being figured out.

Maybe we just need to rename A as Tier I. Then everyone will be happy! It’s like Tom Pederson mocking AAA by starting a self designated AAAA team.
How would Minnesota kids fair if summer AAA was banned? Would some Minnesotans not like it? Some don't like not having the option of winter AAA.

The 97 Fire team is giving some small town kids the chance to play at a large association type level.

The parents on here that complain about tier 1 are the ones worried about other Minnesota kids getting ahead. Take a look some time at paticipation numbers in some southern states and the players they are putting out. Is it the Minnesota kids they should be worried about?

spin-o-rama
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Post by spin-o-rama » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:42 pm

MrBoDangles wrote: How would Minnesota kids fair if summer AAA was banned?
They might just do ok. ADM recommends time off. Doubt they can ban non-MH activities, but D6 might try.
MrBoDangles wrote:Would some Minnesotans not like it? Some don't like not having the option of winter AAA.
Summer AAA is non-USA hockey regulated - anyone can and does start their own team. So you do have the same option of winter AAA. Get your kids together and challenge a MM PW team to a game.
MrBoDangles wrote:The 97 Fire team is giving some small town kids the chance to play at a large association type level.
And there are MN kids billeting on other teams through the US.
MrBoDangles wrote:The parents on here that complain about tier 1 are the ones worried about other Minnesota kids getting ahead. Take a look some time at paticipation numbers in some southern states and the players they are putting out. Is it the Minnesota kids they should be worried about?
You might be the only hockey dad in MN threatened by the Sunbelt turning out a few good players. Good for them!

StillAnEagle
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Re: Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by StillAnEagle » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:14 pm

Quasar wrote:
O-townClown wrote:
Quasar wrote:The 4 Minnesota teams would have open enrollment.

What do you think???
Okay, do these teams have paid coaches? How are they selected? Are they run as for-profit clubs? (In your scenario, the Edina Hockey Association could end up doing a lot of work for the rest of District 6, which doesn't make much sense.) What safeguards to parents have so they don't get hammered by the cost of travel? You indicated these teams will play in top events. (AAA Super Series, Bauer Invite, etc... are generally in places like St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Toronto, and Boston.) Lots of flights unless you plan on missing a lot of school.

What is the goal of having Tier I hockey in Minnesota? Is it to provide a supposedly higher level of play, to get all the best kids on the same few teams, to provide "relief" for the star players in lesser associations, to send a Minnesota team to nationals, or something else?

Regarding this open-enrollment. Can anyone play? I mean, when top Tier I teams regularly fly kids in and let them play for free it is pretty much business as usual. Are you prepared for the backlash when the for-profit guy running one of these teams decides he needs two kids from Seattle and one from Ohio to take things to the next level?

What do I think? I think it is hard to get consensus on what the goal is for having Tier I hockey in Minnesota.
What I think is that some old dude from Wisconsin, and some know it all from Florida really have no business sticking their noses into whats going on in Minnesota.
Lol.. same could be said for the guy who has
Quasar wrote: no dog in this fight. My coaching/Dad days were over long ago
Citizens for one class hockey

Quasar
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Re: Minnesota Tier 1 Hockey

Post by Quasar » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:18 pm

Lol.. same could be said for the guy who has
Quasar wrote: no dog in this fight. My coaching/Dad days were over long ago
Hey Eagle ..I am the old dude from Wisconsin :lol:

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:37 pm

spin-o-rama wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote: How would Minnesota kids fair if summer AAA was banned?
They might just do ok. ADM recommends time off. Doubt they can ban non-MH activities, but D6 might try.
MrBoDangles wrote:Would some Minnesotans not like it? Some don't like not having the option of winter AAA.
Summer AAA is non-USA hockey regulated - anyone can and does start their own team. So you do have the same option of winter AAA. Get your kids together and challenge a MM PW team to a game.
MrBoDangles wrote:The 97 Fire team is giving some small town kids the chance to play at a large association type level.
And there are MN kids billeting on other teams through the US.
MrBoDangles wrote:The parents on here that complain about tier 1 are the ones worried about other Minnesota kids getting ahead. Take a look some time at paticipation numbers in some southern states and the players they are putting out. Is it the Minnesota kids they should be worried about?
You might be the only hockey dad in MN threatened by the Sunbelt turning out a few good players. Good for them!
Can't agree. A large percentage of MN kids are not being developed to their potential. Minnesotans are not not free to choose.

spin-o-rama
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Post by spin-o-rama » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:14 am

MrBoDangles wrote:A large percentage of MN kids are not being developed to their potential.
I agree, but I don't believe it's the systems fault. There are more opportunites than can be taken advantage of. We are inbetween the AAA and association seasons, yet ice availbility, whether it be open ice or structured, is plentiful.
MrBoDangles wrote: Minnesotans are not not free to choose.
It is unreasonable for options to 100% meet personal preferences. MN has a wider spectrum of hockey options available than probably any other state.

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:00 am

No Political Connections wrote:Totally disagree with your last statement. In a lot of ways MN has the least amount of choices in the country. If you live in say, Florida, for the heck of it, you can choose where you want to play hockey.
So let's assume you are in a weak association. The kid still plays how many games and has how many practices? If that isn't enough to satisfy your in-season (up there I'll define it as mid-Oct to early-Mar) craving, there is outdoor ice, training stations like Velocity or Goal Crease, myriad clinics at Minnesota Made, and more.

Don't give me this stuff about more choices in Florida. Choice? How about this:
  • I know two kids on the same Mite team whose parents built their own ice rink! One is functioning, attached to a doctor's office, and the other is under construction at a private residence.

    I know a Squirt team that has four out-of-state trips planned for this season. Not across the border to play in a tournament in Superior if you are from the Iron Range, but on planes with rental cars. $$$$$

    I know several families that made the choice to play for out-of-area programs. We talk about practice. One hopes to make one weekday practice per month even though it is more than two hours each way. Another makes more than two a week that are two hours away!

    People pay $35 for a half-hour of "instruction" from a player on Michigan's NC team from the mid-90s. The catch...it's on synthetic ice.

    Our program draws half of the players from a distance of 45-70 miles from the rink.
If someone in Minnesota says there are more good choices here they are crazy. If you are from Moorhead, would you drive to Roseau for a private lesson once a week with an instructor on outdoor ice? If you live in Rochester would you leave after school on a weeknight to get a hotel room in Bloomington so you could do an early AM clinic at Made before driving back for 1st period of Junior High?

The answer is no, because there are just so many better options available. When I tell you that these are things people from Florida would do, it's because I see some doing things just as asinine every day.

One "crazy parent" said the family spends $30,000 annually on his son's hockey training. He's a Squirt. When he's fully grown he'll still be a squirt.

Do you really want to say there are more choices in Florida in a tone that implies more good choices in Florida.

Minnesota wins this bout, referee stops contest early in the First Round. Even the supposed "weak" associations.
Be kind. Rewind.

Pudda_Puck_In_Her_Ear
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Post by Pudda_Puck_In_Her_Ear » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:18 am

ah, but what about the girls in bikinis factor!?! Did you add that in?

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:10 pm

O-townClown wrote:
No Political Connections wrote:Totally disagree with your last statement. In a lot of ways MN has the least amount of choices in the country. If you live in say, Florida, for the heck of it, you can choose where you want to play hockey.
So let's assume you are in a weak association. The kid still plays how many games and has how many practices? If that isn't enough to satisfy your in-season (up there I'll define it as mid-Oct to early-Mar) craving, there is outdoor ice, training stations like Velocity or Goal Crease, myriad clinics at Minnesota Made, and more.

Don't give me this stuff about more choices in Florida. Choice? How about this:
  • I know two kids on the same Mite team whose parents built their own ice rink! One is functioning, attached to a doctor's office, and the other is under construction at a private residence.

    I know a Squirt team that has four out-of-state trips planned for this season. Not across the border to play in a tournament in Superior if you are from the Iron Range, but on planes with rental cars. $$$$$

    I know several families that made the choice to play for out-of-area programs. We talk about practice. One hopes to make one weekday practice per month even though it is more than two hours each way. Another makes more than two a week that are two hours away!

    People pay $35 for a half-hour of "instruction" from a player on Michigan's NC team from the mid-90s. The catch...it's on synthetic ice.

    Our program draws half of the players from a distance of 45-70 miles from the rink.
If someone in Minnesota says there are more good choices here they are crazy. If you are from Moorhead, would you drive to Roseau for a private lesson once a week with an instructor on outdoor ice? If you live in Rochester would you leave after school on a weeknight to get a hotel room in Bloomington so you could do an early AM clinic at Made before driving back for 1st period of Junior High?

The answer is no, because there are just so many better options available. When I tell you that these are things people from Florida would do, it's because I see some doing things just as asinine every day.

One "crazy parent" said the family spends $30,000 annually on his son's hockey training. He's a Squirt. When he's fully grown he'll still be a squirt.

Do you really want to say there are more choices in Florida in a tone that implies more good choices in Florida.

Minnesota wins this bout, referee stops contest early in the First Round. Even the supposed "weak" associations.
Thanks OTC....... We are stuck in our association so go out on the pond or spend some more money and go to camps..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Your profile on here says you like to trip on acid and go to bull fights........... It all makes sense now.

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