2 balanced A teams for Edina Squirts

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:03 am

Edina Association May minutes:

Motion: A motion that the EHA would create 2 equal A teams for the 2012/2013 season and that the Squirt Liaison(s) would present a comprehensive squirt implementation plan at the August 11th EHA board meeting. The motion was seconded. The motion passed.

Trout · Post by **Trout** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:00 am

Wayzata is doing this as well I believe at Pee Wee and Squirt Levels BOTH! Equal teams.

goaliewithfoggedglasses · Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:08 am

Note that this is not for the upcoming season but the one after.

IcePick · Post by **IcePick** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:21 pm

I'm surprised Edina and Wayzata would do this. Two equal A teams is probably developmentally superior for skaters ranked 15-30 but it is arguably worse for skaters ranked 1-15. Some of the top skaters will view two A teams as "watered down" and will view the ever-expanding Minnesota Made programs and the Fire as more attractive. Even if they don't leave, they will become frustrated. Also, I don't think these teams will be as competitive as some think. Edina had a Squirt A1 and A2 team two years ago. The A1 team only lost 2-3 games and won Fargo. The A2 team only won a couple games all season. Combining these two teams would have pulled both Squirt teams out of the top 10 in my opinion. How long will Edina and Wayzata support two equal A teams if they aren't winning like they used to? But . . . . it will be good for the other associations!!

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:14 pm

IcePick wrote:I'm surprised Edina and Wayzata would do this. Two equal A teams is probably developmentally superior for skaters ranked 15-30 but it is arguably worse for skaters ranked 1-15. Some of the top skaters will view two A teams as "watered down" and will view the ever-expanding Minnesota Made programs and the Fire as more attractive. Even if they don't leave, they will become frustrated. Also, I don't think these teams will be as competitive as some think. Edina had a Squirt A1 and A2 team two years ago. The A1 team only lost 2-3 games and won Fargo. The A2 team only won a couple games all season. Combining these two teams would have pulled both Squirt teams out of the top 10 in my opinion. How long will Edina and Wayzata support two equal A teams if they aren't winning like they used to? But . . . . it will be good for the other associations!!

I don't understand your logic. You make yourself better playing against better competition. Having two A teams has no effect on the teams you play against. Or do you think that Edina can only find one good A hockey coach?

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:28 pm

Lucky- Your wrong. Even if they go .500 for two years the pee-wee program will be even better. Four years the bantams. I'm suprised they have not done this sooner. They still will be no different than alot, 20% play A?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:39 pm

It is my understanding that in the 2012/2013 season, Minnesota Hockey is planning to split the peewee A tourney into a large school tourney and a small school tourney based on the association's high school designation (Class AA or Class A). If that happens, how will these decisions by two large associations affect their districts? How would they participate in the Minnesota Hockey playoffs? What will be the Minnesota Hockey tourney format for each tourney play down?

It is my understanding that an association within a Class AA high school district can opt out and play in the peewee A tourney. My estimate that 55-65 out of a 120 or so associations that played peewee A/B in 2010-2011 would be required to play in the Peewee AA tourney based on their high school playing Class AA unless they opt out.

I think Minnesota Hockey may not be set on the idea of the two peewee A tourneys and may re-think, but I applaud both Edina and Wayzata for going with two equal teams. I believe that the more kids learning to play at higher levels is better overall for the state and encourages more parents and kids to participate.

The only sad note is beating an Edina or Wayzata has always been compared to beating the Yankees in baseball. Hopefully, that will not go away.

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:52 pm

Very intersting discussion thread that has been bantered back and forth in the past. I guess my feeling is that any skater can PLAY at an A level but can they COMPETE at an A level. I was always taught that you develop skills in a practice setting and earn your playing time by an increase in your skill set, intensity, hustle, coachability, etc.. If a skater does not have these afore mentioned traits, they may be able to skate up and down the ice, but it ends there. They are out of position, can't keep up, are paired against the other teams top lines which usually means they cannot succeed. Of course we are talking about Squirts at Edina and Wyazata.......but believe these top tiered skaters at this age are paying dividends as the kids get into Bantams and High School. When one looks at the rankings each year, there are an awful lot of these schools teams in the top 10 of the state all year.......pretty darn impressive and I don't care what size of school they have.......

IcePick · Post by **IcePick** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:03 pm

luckyEPDad wrote:
IcePick wrote:I'm surprised Edina and Wayzata would do this. Two equal A teams is probably developmentally superior for skaters ranked 15-30 but it is arguably worse for skaters ranked 1-15. Some of the top skaters will view two A teams as "watered down" and will view the ever-expanding Minnesota Made programs and the Fire as more attractive. Even if they don't leave, they will become frustrated. Also, I don't think these teams will be as competitive as some think. Edina had a Squirt A1 and A2 team two years ago. The A1 team only lost 2-3 games and won Fargo. The A2 team only won a couple games all season. Combining these two teams would have pulled both Squirt teams out of the top 10 in my opinion. How long will Edina and Wayzata support two equal A teams if they aren't winning like they used to? But . . . . it will be good for the other associations!!
I don't understand your logic. You make yourself better playing against better competition. Having two A teams has no effect on the teams you play against. Or do you think that Edina can only find one good A hockey coach?

I agree that playing against better competition makes you better. But if an association has a practice-to-game ratio of, say, 3-to-1, then 75% of the ice time is playing against your own teammates. The higher the skill, the faster and more competitive the practices. This is why I think two equal A teams is probably better for skaters 16-30 but worse for skaters 1-15. It is also my observation that there is a tremendous skill gap between skaters 1-5 and 25-30, even in large associations. I think it is likely that a lot of the top players will become frustrated and in today's world, there are choices. JMHO.

dzonecoverage · Post by **dzonecoverage** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:20 pm

so this year's board is creating a new rule that won't be in place until a new board takes over? My bet is that it doesn't happen.

Toomuchtoosoon · Post by **Toomuchtoosoon** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:15 pm

Wayzata is leading the way and others will be forced to follow. Don't think the squirt talent is good enough to pull it off, but need to give it a shot. Edina needs to do it at bantams this year, but no courage on the board.

57special · Post by **57special** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:59 pm

side benefit is that it will be better for the goalie's development on the A teams in question. Getting 5 shots a game doesn't help you progress. Practice is fine, but must be tested game conditions .

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:31 am

It doesn't have to be 1-30. If Minnetonka can have 13 skaters at the A level, why can't Edina have 24-26 on 2 A teams?

This will have a big effect on the B team dominance.

What will Edina do for Fargo? Which team do you send? Do you send both? Do you get an exception and send a community all-star team?

Bluewhitefan · Post by **Bluewhitefan** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:32 am

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:Wayzata is leading the way and others will be forced to follow. Don't think the squirt talent is good enough to pull it off, but need to give it a shot. Edina needs to do it at bantams this year, but no courage on the board.

I love the "no courage on the board" comment. Likely coming from someone that's never been on a board. Not sure how big Edina's board is, but it's never easy getting 15-20 people with various agendas to come to consensus on anything. Equally strong arguments on both sides of this issue - not sure it boils down to courage.

Toomuchtoosoon · Post by **Toomuchtoosoon** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:44 pm

Courage because they bow too much to a lot of the top kids parents. Too many kids on the bubble lose the chance for competing at the right level and it hurts the top kids development since most games are decided before they start. More kids will get a chance to realize their potential.

Maybe kid 25-30 is way behind at the beginning of the year, but they should pick it up thoughout the year.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:07 pm

we are talking about squirts right????? Players 25 to 30 could be top ten or higher by the end of the year.

IcePick · Post by **IcePick** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:11 pm

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:Wayzata is leading the way and others will be forced to follow. Don't think the squirt talent is good enough to pull it off, but need to give it a shot. Edina needs to do it at bantams this year, but no courage on the board.

No offense, but I hope you are wrong. If the large associations follow Wayzata and go with two equal Peewee A teams then, almost by definition, PWA hockey will be diluted. In the long run, I don't know how this is beneficial to Minnesota Hockey. This season's Wayzata PWA team was really terrific and was ranked 2nd in the final LPH poll. Personally, I would love to see a team of that caliber stay in the mix, not split in two.

57special · Post by **57special** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:07 pm

Edina Squirt A was 42-0, and won their districts and Fargo Tournament finals by lopsided scores. IF this years crop of Squirts is close to being as talented then I believe they should have two equal teams. It might make Edina/Wayzata (could be a couple more names thrown in here) more beatable at both the A and B levels, but "more beatable" in this case means losing 10-15 games a year rather than 5 or less.

Steamrolling teams by 15-2 does neither team any good, IMO. Time to level things out and make the kids on the Mega associations earn their wins, and allow the kids from the smaller(by enrollment) teams to compete.

Trout · Post by **Trout** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:51 am

If it was about letting the smaller assoc. have a chance to win it wouldn't happen.

I am sure E and W believe they need to give more kids a chance to compete at the higher level because they can and it will make them stronger in the long run at the older levels...as well as allow them to have more kids that can play at high school (all the large associations feed many high schools and they need depth to make that happen).

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:19 am

For years every board elected inside all the large hockey associations has chosen to provide only one A team at the bantam and peewee levels. The reason why is that some districts (like Edina's District 6) have a policy that if you furnish two teams at the bantam and peewee A levels, the association cannot take the top 17 kids and put them on one team, they have to split the top 34 ranked kids between the two teams.

Last year Rochester and Moorhead associations (District 9 and District 15) had two A teams that played in their districts but chose to go with one team consisting of the top 17 players and the other A team consisting of the next 17 ranked players. Both D9 and D15 allowed that.

I believe Minnesota Hockey does not enforce any statewide rule on how the associations should select their two A teams if they go that route and leave that to the individual districts.

The reason this topic is of interest is Minnesota Hockey intends to establish, in the 2012-2013 season, a peewee AA and peewee A state tourney where the AA entrants will be the associations whose high school plays Class AA high school hockey.

The second reason this is of interest is that Edina and Wayzata are showing the way by fielding two equal teams, something all the prior elected boards have not done. This will improve overall competition in the state by having more competition in the districts and should result in more interest (increased numbers) among all the associations in the district.

gostarsgo · Post by **gostarsgo** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:46 pm

[quote="IcePick"][quote="luckyEPDad"][quote="IcePick"]I'm surprised Edina and Wayzata would do this. Two equal A teams is probably developmentally superior for skaters ranked 15-30 but it is arguably worse for skaters ranked 1-15. Some of the top skaters will view two A teams as "watered down" and will view the ever-expanding Minnesota Made programs and the Fire as more attractive. Even if they don't leave, they will become frustrated. Also, I don't think these teams will be as competitive as some think. Edina had a Squirt A1 and A2 team two years ago. The A1 team only lost 2-3 games and won Fargo. The A2 team only won a couple games all season. Combining these two teams would have pulled both Squirt teams out of the top 10 in my opinion. How long will Edina and Wayzata support two equal A teams if they aren't winning like they used to? But . . . . it will be good for the other associations!![/quote]

I don't understand your logic. You make yourself better playing against better competition. Having two A teams has no effect on the teams you play against. Or do you think that Edina can only find one good A hockey coach?[/quote]

I agree that playing against better competition makes you better. But if an association has a practice-to-game ratio of, say, 3-to-1, then 75% of the ice time is playing against your own teammates. The higher the skill, the faster and more competitive the practices. This is why I think two equal A teams is probably better for skaters 16-30 but worse for skaters 1-15. It is also my observation that there is a tremendous skill gap between skaters 1-5 and 25-30, even in large associations. I think it is likely that a lot of the top players will become frustrated and in today's world, there are choices. JMHO.[/quote]

Last time I checked Eagan beat Edina for 3rd place at the Tourney. Does anyone remember their records in Squirts.

GoldenBear · Post by **GoldenBear** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:55 pm

Congrats! Put that white ribbon on your falker bulletin board.

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:50 pm

gostarsgo wrote:
IcePick wrote:
luckyEPDad wrote: Maybe they should Share Ice and get the #24 kid have all of his practices against the #1 kid.. BTW there is no way Edina will carry 30 kids on two A teams.. 13 on each at most I bet..

I don't understand your logic. You make yourself better playing against better competition. Having two A teams has no effect on the teams you play against. Or do you think that Edina can only find one good A hockey coach?
I agree that playing against better competition makes you better. But if an association has a practice-to-game ratio of, say, 3-to-1, then 75% of the ice time is playing against your own teammates. The higher the skill, the faster and more competitive the practices. This is why I think two equal A teams is probably better for skaters 16-30 but worse for skaters 1-15. It is also my observation that there is a tremendous skill gap between skaters 1-5 and 25-30, even in large associations. I think it is likely that a lot of the top players will become frustrated and in today's world, there are choices. JMHO.
Last time I checked Eagan beat Edina for 3rd place at the Tourney. Does anyone remember their records in Squirts.

Puckhead631 · Post by **Puckhead631** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:38 pm

Edina tried this three seasons ago and no one in Edina liked it - it may have been because they didn't balance the teams (they had an A1 and A2).

Last I heard is that they would never do that again.

Lastly, they will have to get District 6 to approve it and they only way D6 may consider it is if they balanced the teams - which is what they were to have done three years ago.

There will not be two peewee A teams.