Trying to understand linesmen and referees roles

[hockeybc69]

My first post here, so dont crucify me. I do enjoy viewing the various topics and have learned a lot from this forum for sure.

I am sure I am missing something on this.

I have a couple kids that play youth hockey.
We now have the new major penalty rule for boarding and checking from behind in youth hockey.

So why is it that we are implementing these new rules to make the game safer, yet we have people wearing stripes on the ice and cant call penalties?
Caveat being that the ref can consult with the linesmen about something in question and then call a penalty?


I wont say that I am a scholar on the rulebook for youth hockey. But is this really how it works or should work??

We have people on the ice that can whisper in the ear of another to say a penalty should be called, but they cant raise their own hand to say, "HEY, that was wrong."

Am I misunderstanding something or not seeing deep enough into the roles the people in stripes can play on the ice?

Whats the reason to not allow all guys in stripes on the ice to toss someone in the penalty box? Very frustrating if you ask me.

[QuackerTracker]

This is directly from the rule book:

Rule 502 Referee
(a) The “REFEREE” shall have general supervision of the game and his decision shall be final in all matters occurring before, during or after the game. The role of the official is to “enforce” the rules of the game and in doing so shall have full authority over all participants. The Referee may not change his decision, or that of any other official, after the resumption of play following the rendering of the original decision.

(b) All On-Ice Officials shall wear black trousers and an official sweater with the current USA Hockey officiating crest on the left chest of the sweater during all games. Any other crest that is worn must be located on either arm of the sweater. The wearing of name-plates shall be regulated by each League. Each official is required to wear a black hockey helmet, with chin strap properly fastened, and it is strongly recommended that all On-Ice Officials wear a half-shield visor properly attached to their helmets.

(c) The Referee shall order the teams on the ice at the appointed time for the beginning of a game and for the start of each period. On-Ice Officials should enter the ice surface prior to warm-ups and remain on the ice at the conclusion of each period until all players have exited to their dressing rooms. Penalties may also be assessed during the warm-up period. Prior to the start of the game, the Referee shall confirm that the required off-ice officials are in their proper position and that the timing and signaling equipment is working
properly.

(d) It shall be the Referee’s duty to impose such infractions as outlined in the rules and give the final decision in matters pertaining to disputed goals after consultation with the Linesmen and/or Goal Judges. He shall be responsible for ensuring each player is wearing the required protective equipment in its intended manner. The Referee shall announce to the appropriate off-ice official all goals and assists legally scored as well as penalties imposed. He shall request, at the first stoppage of play, to have announced the reason for disallowing a goal in every instance when the goal light is turned on in error during play.

(e) The Referee shall see to it that players of opposing teams are separated on the penalty bench to prevent contact.

(f) At the conclusion of the game, the Referee shall check the official scoresheet, including team rosters and players in uniform, for accuracy prior to signing.

Rule 503 Linesman
(a) The duties of the “LINESMAN” are to determine any infractions of the rules concerning off-side play at the blue lines or any violation of the “Icing the Puck” rule. He shall, when requested to do so by the Referee, give his version of any incident that may have taken place during the playing of
the game.

(b) He shall conduct face-offs at all times, except at the start of the game, at the beginning of each period and after a goal has been scored. The Referee may call upon a Linesman to conduct a face-off at any time.

(c) The Linesman shall stop play for the following situations:
(1) The puck goes outside the playing area (Rule 631(a)).
(2) The puck is interfered with by any ineligible person.
(3) The puck is played with a stick above the height of the shoulder (Rule 621(c)).
(4) The puck has been illegally passed with the hand (Rule 618(b)).
(5) The goalpost has been displaced from its normal position.
(6) When in the vicinity of the goal, the puck has entered the goal and is unobserved by the Referee.
(7) Off-sides occurring at the face-off circles (Rule 613(b)).
(8 ) Premature substitution of the goalkeeper (Rule 205(b)).
(9) Injured players (206(a)).
(10) Interference by spectators (Rule 626(a)).

(d) The Linesman shall stop play and report to the Referee any infraction of the following rules:
(1) Too many players on the ice (Rules 205(a)).
(2) Articles thrown on the ice from the vicinity of the players’ or penalty bench (Rules 601(b.3)).
(3) Delaying the game by deliberately displacing the goal post (Rule 610(c)).

(e) The Linesman shall report to the Referee at the next stoppage of play his version of any infraction of the rules that he believes constitutes a bench minor, major, match, misconduct, game misconduct or penalty shot under these rules. In addition, the Linesman shall give his version of any Injury Potential Penalty (see Glossary) that occurs behind the play and is not observed by the Referee. The Referee, at his discretion, may assess a penalty for such infractions.

[BadgerBob82]

Nice cut/paste reply from the outdated rule book Quack!

The 1 referee system is silly and proves USA and MN Hockey don't care about player safety. This past week I once again witnessed a single incompetent referee lose control of a game. Making ridiculous ticky-tacky calls yet overlooking check from behinds and head contact. Making interference and holding calls from 1/2 a rink away takes alot of talent.

What a joke the 1 referee system is!

[jBlaze3000]

Nice cut/paste reply from the outdated rule book Quack!

The 1 referee system is silly and proves USA and MN Hockey don't care about player safety. This past week I once again witnessed a single incompetent referee lose control of a game. Making ridiculous ticky-tacky calls yet overlooking check from behinds and head contact. Making interference and holding calls from 1/2 a rink away takes alot of talent.

What a joke the 1 referee system is!

This is where a lot of youth refs get into trouble. They will make a few ticky-tack calls, get yelled at by a coach or parents, and let it go to their heads. They will then swallow their whistle as far more blatant penalties occur.

[QuackerTracker]

Nice cut/paste reply from the outdated rule book Quack!

The 1 referee system is silly and proves USA and MN Hockey don't care about player safety. This past week I once again witnessed a single incompetent referee lose control of a game. Making ridiculous ticky-tacky calls yet overlooking check from behinds and head contact. Making interference and holding calls from 1/2 a rink away takes alot of talent.

What a joke the 1 referee system is!

Funny that rule book is dated 2011-2013

Spend enough time on YouTube and you can find missed calls at every level. It does not matter if it is 2 man, 1-2, 2-1, or 2-2. Yes, even NHL officials miss calls with 4 guys on the ice. I'm sorry that someone told you that you can't skate well enough to ref in the 1-2 system, but your attack on it can only be because lack of knowledge or ability.

Oh and again, the 1-2 is the preferred system for USA Hockey, Hockey Canada, IIHF, all Junior programs from the MnJHL to the USHL, QJHL, OHL, AHL and the NHL for training officials. But I am sure you know better than everyone else in hockey.

[hockeybc69]

Oh and again, the 1-2 is the preferred system

Whats wrong with having 3 guys on the ice that can raise a hand and stop play when any penalty has occurred?

I understand by the rule book pasting that a linesman can consult with a ref on the next stoppage of play if he/she witnesses a potential injury infraction.

But why not let them call trips, hooks, or whatever else?

It is good to know that the linesman can in fact step in on a "bad situation" at least. I was not aware of that part.

[BadgerBob82]

Quacker: If you spent any time on youtube watching fight videos, you'd see very quickly Major Jr. in Canada and AHL use 2 refs/2 linesmen. Like you said, the training grounds for the NHL! Not sure about lower minor pro?

You just watched the World Jr's right? Olympics? 2 refs/2 linesmen. That's sanctioned by IIHF?

USA Hockey sanctions USHL, NAHL, NA3, MnJ,etc. Therefore, they use 1 ref!

You are proving yourself to lack knowledge. Unfortunately, sounds like you are a ref that thinks you are good enough to handle the ice all by yourself. So your ability is probably below average also.

[the_juiceman]

Oh and again, the 1-2 is the preferred system

Whats wrong with having 3 guys on the ice that can raise a hand and stop play when any penalty has occurred?

I understand by the rule book pasting that a linesman can consult with a ref on the next stoppage of play if he/she witnesses a potential injury infraction.

But why not let them call trips, hooks, or whatever else?

It is good to know that the linesman can in fact step in on a "bad situation" at least. I was not aware of that part.

Other than A Bantam--every youth game I've seen (D10) as two officials -both of whom call penalties--is this different elseware?

[hockeybc69]

D5 A bantams, we have 1 ref and 2 linesmen.....

Hence the reason I posted this. Some of the stuff that isnt called is very frustrating with one guy out there able to make the calls as they happen, and 2 other guys "observing".

[QuackerTracker]

Quacker: If you spent any time on youtube watching fight videos, you'd see very quickly Major Jr. in Canada and AHL use 2 refs/2 linesmen. Like you said, the training grounds for the NHL! Not sure about lower minor pro?

You just watched the World Jr's right? Olympics? 2 refs/2 linesmen. That's sanctioned by IIHF?

USA Hockey sanctions USHL, NAHL, NA3, MnJ,etc. Therefore, they use 1 ref!

You are proving yourself to lack knowledge. Unfortunately, sounds like you are a ref that thinks you are good enough to handle the ice all by yourself. So your ability is probably below average also.

I have worked every system listed and a veriety. The 1-2 will provid the most consistancy during a game. One official to make a decision on goals and penalties. USA Hockey has approved the 2-2 for Midget and above. They have never even been close to approving the 2-1 system as it fails in too many ways.

The reality come to this:

There has been a tradgic event this year causing everyone to blame everyone for players being hurt. The reality is that penalties where not being enforced correctly leading to and increase in physical play.

Coaches have not tought kids how to give and take checks properly and teach a hit 'em hard mentality instead of a separate the player from the puck mentality.

Players have a "I gonna get 'em" mentality.

Unless this changes it does not mater if you have 1 ref on the ice or 8, they can not prevent injury. Officials need to enforce penalties correctly and work as a team. Sadly we have taken an attitude in this state that we have to play as many games as possible. We don't have enough quality officials to cover all the games we have.

On a Saturday we could have minnesota youth officials working the following:
I will skip the NHL cause those guys don't work anything else
6 Men's WCHA games =24 officials
3 Womens's WCHA (guessing)=12 officials
12 mens DIII = 36 officials
12 women's DIII = 36 officials
Juniors = 50-60 officials
75 Boy's HS varsity = 225 officials
75 Boys JV = 150 officials
50 girls varsity HS = 125 officials
50 Girls JV = 100
100-200 BA games = 450 officials

This is just a rough guess of the highest levels we have in MN that use offiails from minnesota. Even fir the same officials do the JV and Varsity of the boys and girls HS you need about 900 officlials to cover the amount of games out there. This does not include the other lower levels we have. I would say that there are less than 300 qualified officials in the state of Minnesota that should be working the levels highlighted in bold.

My numbers my number of games is a little on the high side, I understand that. But here is the reality, 90% of officials do it only for the money. That leaves 10% that train to be better officials and care about the job they do. The worst part is that it will never change. There are just too many games.

So you can talk about the 1-2 and how it's outdated. But I train to officiate. I study how to be better. Read my rule book and manuals daily. I can tell you that it's the most pure officiating system we have at the youth level and the most consistan. hooks, holds and trips very rarly escalate in to anything. If one gets missed does it really matter. Things that can't be missed are injury potentional and no matter how many officials you have on the ice, with orange on or the power to call penalties, unless they are willing to work together to get it right it's not gonna change. And the only way it can change is fewer games. And we all kno that mom does not want to sit at billy and suzies practices. She want to wear her bedazzled shirt to the games...

[HSRef77]

Quacker: If you spent any time on youtube watching fight videos, you'd see very quickly Major Jr. in Canada and AHL use 2 refs/2 linesmen. Like you said, the training grounds for the NHL! Not sure about lower minor pro?

You just watched the World Jr's right? Olympics? 2 refs/2 linesmen. That's sanctioned by IIHF?

USA Hockey sanctions USHL, NAHL, NA3, MnJ,etc. Therefore, they use 1 ref!

You are proving yourself to lack knowledge. Unfortunately, sounds like you are a ref that thinks you are good enough to handle the ice all by yourself. So your ability is probably below average also.

I have worked every system listed and a veriety. The 1-2 will provid the most consistancy during a game. One official to make a decision on goals and penalties. USA Hockey has approved the 2-2 for Midget and above. They have never even been close to approving the 2-1 system as it fails in too many ways.

The reality come to this:

There has been a tradgic event this year causing everyone to blame everyone for players being hurt. The reality is that penalties where not being enforced correctly leading to and increase in physical play.

Coaches have not tought kids how to give and take checks properly and teach a hit 'em hard mentality instead of a separate the player from the puck mentality.

Players have a "I gonna get 'em" mentality.

Unless this changes it does not mater if you have 1 ref on the ice or 8, they can not prevent injury. Officials need to enforce penalties correctly and work as a team. Sadly we have taken an attitude in this state that we have to play as many games as possible. We don't have enough quality officials to cover all the games we have.

On a Saturday we could have minnesota youth officials working the following:
I will skip the NHL cause those guys don't work anything else
6 Men's WCHA games =24 officials
3 Womens's WCHA (guessing)=12 officials
12 mens DIII = 36 officials
12 women's DIII = 36 officials
Juniors = 50-60 officials
75 Boy's HS varsity = 225 officials
75 Boys JV = 150 officials
50 girls varsity HS = 125 officials
50 Girls JV = 100
100-200 BA games = 450 officials

This is just a rough guess of the highest levels we have in MN that use offiails from minnesota. Even fir the same officials do the JV and Varsity of the boys and girls HS you need about 900 officlials to cover the amount of games out there. This does not include the other lower levels we have. I would say that there are less than 300 qualified officials in the state of Minnesota that should be working the levels highlighted in bold.

My numbers my number of games is a little on the high side, I understand that. But here is the reality, 90% of officials do it only for the money. That leaves 10% that train to be better officials and care about the job they do. The worst part is that it will never change. There are just too many games.

So you can talk about the 1-2 and how it's outdated. But I train to officiate. I study how to be better. Read my rule book and manuals daily. I can tell you that it's the most pure officiating system we have at the youth level and the most consistan. hooks, holds and trips very rarly escalate in to anything. If one gets missed does it really matter. Things that can't be missed are injury potentional and no matter how many officials you have on the ice, with orange on or the power to call penalties, unless they are willing to work together to get it right it's not gonna change. And the only way it can change is fewer games. And we all kno that mom does not want to sit at billy and suzies practices. She want to wear her bedazzled shirt to the games...

I politely disagree with you on a couple items.

1. 90% of the officials "do not" officiate for the money. That is a ridiculous statement. Is the money an influence, sure it is. But, most officials are former hockey players and want to stay involved in the game because they love it. If money was the main driver, why do we have 50% of first or second year officials quit. It's because they lose their love for the game (being yelled at, more work than they anticipated, etc)

2. The 1/2 system does provide consistency. Unfortunately, consistency comes in two forms, good and bad. If USA Hockey and MN Hockey is really behind making the game safer, they would move to a 2/1 system. I think the pros of making the game safer outweigh the con of consistency. Having more officials that call the hooks, tripping and roughs behind the play will lead to less issues as the game progresses and as you said, one official cannot see everything. Unfortunately, the 2/2 system is not an option as adding another official means more money.

[hockeybc69]

Whats wrong with 3/0?

But have one of the three be the "captain" to make a final call. Also if you have 3, its a 2-1 vote on the ice for any questionable calls.
At least have the other 2 people in stripes on the ice able to call penalties.

I havent seen this discussed at all, and curious why this couldnt be done.

[BadgerBob82]

Quacker: You seem to protest too loudly supporting the 1 referee system. I can only imagine it is your ego. The game is about YOU. You want to be the only one with orange arm bands. You read the rule book inside and out, yet appear the type of ref that has no feel for the game. You want to control the game, not officate the play. I bet you lead the state in mouthguard violation penalties. You know the rule number for a colored mouthguard completely covering the top teeth, not being chewed on? Great call sitting a kid for 10 minutes for chewing on his mouthguard!

HSRef77 obviously knows what he is talking about, you Quacker will continue making up silly points that 90% of the refs are in it for the $45 they get.

Fact of the matter is, 1 referee on the ice is so outdated it is not worth debating. Only why idiotic District Ref Directors like Quacker will continue being yes men to USA Hockey.

By the way Quacker, you have never once provide a positive reason for having only 1 referee on the ice.

[QuackerTracker]

Quacker: You seem to protest too loudly supporting the 1 referee system. I can only imagine it is your ego. The game is about YOU. You want to be the only one with orange arm bands. You read the rule book inside and out, yet appear the type of ref that has no feel for the game. You want to control the game, not officate the play. I bet you lead the state in mouthguard violation penalties. You know the rule number for a colored mouthguard completely covering the top teeth, not being chewed on? Great call sitting a kid for 10 minutes for chewing on his mouthguard!

HSRef77 obviously knows what he is talking about, you Quacker will continue making up silly points that 90% of the refs are in it for the $45 they get.

Fact of the matter is, 1 referee on the ice is so outdated it is not worth debating. Only why idiotic District Ref Directors like Quacker will continue being yes men to USA Hockey.

By the way Quacker, you have never once provide a positive reason for having only 1 referee on the ice.

You have yet to provide a way that the 2-1 is safer other than saying that the other ref can call penalties behind play. Does a trip behind play really need to be called? A linesman can report an incident to a ref if need be.


Ok, defending the 1 ref system:

-Development of officials. Just like players. This is what higher levels of hockey (DI, Juniors, Minor Pro, NHL want officials that have 1-2 experiance)
-Consistancy of penalty calls
-Ability to break up altercations without confusion between officals
-Ref calling goals and penalties does not have to worry about icing and offsides
-Offsides and icing constantly covered
-Keeping officials who don't have the abillity to keep up with play off the ice as a ref
-How often in a bantam game does something happen behind play? I would say in the 50+ bantam games I have done this year 1. How would having an additional ref prevent it from happening.
-People complain about the amount of penalties called by 1 ref on the ice, this would be increased by have an additional offical on the ice.

-Leagues that use the 2-1 are moving away from it. Going to 4 man. HS league continues to test it and DIII looks to be heading that way for next season.


Also to defend myself:
-I have called 1 mouthgaurd penalty in my career. My supervisor was on the ice with me.
-Yes I do read and study my rule books every day. All 4 of them.
-I have spent at least a week every summer for the past 4 years at camps to become a better offical for USA hockey. The HS league and the 2-1 system don't provide that.
-I worked the 2-1 system last night in a section quarter-final. The coach of the loosing team said it was the best officiating they had all year and they want our officials association to come back and do there games next year.
-Officials don't decide what system to use in USA Hockey. The USA Hockey board does. And the officials have a small voice in this.

Yes I am a USA Hockey supporter. It's one of the few leagues that believe in officials development. No other league cares if there officials reach an new level.

Badger- are you the first guy to yell at an official that they are letting the game get out of controll? You complain about player safety but then you say mouthgaurd violations should not be called. I agree that they shouldn't but if you want players to be safe should they not have their equipment on properly. Do you ever tell an official they made a great call against your team when they do?

[BadgerBob82]

Quacker:

To answer your points in favor of the 1-2 system.

I have no clue what higher level leagues look for in future refs. I am speaking of youth hockey refs. And since none of the leagues you list use a 1-2 system, not sure why they would want refs with experience in that system? As for a claim that the 1-2 allows mentoring of young officials allowing them to do the lines. That is foolish if the only ref on the ice is now covering the lines and teaching also. Poor reason.

Consistency of calls is valid. But as HSRef77 stated, can be consistently bad calls which could be helped having 2 refs on the ice. 2 "good" refs would still call what they see and both would consistently call what is/isn't a penalty. Poor reason.

Breaking up altercations without confusion? I suppose sending in two linesmen with the ref and his note pad could help catch the right player. But you can't really say that is a vaild reason for having only 1 ref on the ice. Poor reason.

Ref not having to worry about calling the lines is a fair statement. BUT, in youth games, where mentoring is the goal, the ref ends up watching and calling the lines also. I will give you a partial poor reason on that one.

Lines constantly covered. Again, you are correct, but only if the linesmen are experienced. Partial poor reason again due to implied importance of calling lines. And that 2-1 system calls the lines very well.

Keeping officials off the ice when they can't keep up. Laughable. That is the primary basis for my hating the 1-2 at the youth level. As you said, with the ref shortage, anyone with a patch and orange arm bands can ref a game. Extremely poor reason and in fact my greatest reason for saying 1 ref should be abolished.

The little calf slash behind the play? Not really my concern but that is the stuff that leads to bigger problems. AND, when the only ref is watching that, he can be missing plays at the puck. So another poor reason.

The idea 2 refs would lead to MORE penalties. You are reaching. Poor reason.

I agree the 4 man system is preferred. But not really needed at the youth level. 2 man is good through Bantam A. 2-1 for Bantam A and above.

Mouthguard calls. I never said I was against mouthguards for safety. Just against calling a 10 minute penalty for not having it properly in their mouth. Teaching moment. Tell the player. Tell him again. Tell the coach. Teach. I have seen "rule-book" refs call this over and over. Then show during the game they can't officiate. Man in the crease and mouthguards are their focus.

I don't yell at officials. Not when coaching. Not when spectating. Officials that bad always slant their calls away from your team when you yell. Bad officials tend to have rabbit ears. It goes along with the ego and mindset that the game is about HIM, not the players.

As a coach, I will ALWAYS shake the refs hands, say thank you for doing the game. If they called a good game, I will say that specifically. If they were not good, I say nothing but thank you.

Oh, just so you know, I refereed youth up to HS JV for 15 years before quitting to coach my kids in youth hockey. (Back in the day, there were separate JV and Varsity game refs)

[QuackerTracker]

Quacker:

To answer your points in favor of the 1-2 system.

I have no clue what higher level leagues look for in future refs. I am speaking of youth hockey refs. And since none of the leagues you list use a 1-2 system, not sure why they would want refs with experience in that system? As for a claim that the 1-2 allows mentoring of young officials allowing them to do the lines. That is foolish if the only ref on the ice is now covering the lines and teaching also. Poor reason.

Consistency of calls is valid. But as HSRef77 stated, can be consistently bad calls which could be helped having 2 refs on the ice. 2 "good" refs would still call what they see and both would consistently call what is/isn't a penalty. Poor reason.

Breaking up altercations without confusion? I suppose sending in two linesmen with the ref and his note pad could help catch the right player. But you can't really say that is a vaild reason for having only 1 ref on the ice. Poor reason.

Ref not having to worry about calling the lines is a fair statement. BUT, in youth games, where mentoring is the goal, the ref ends up watching and calling the lines also. I will give you a partial poor reason on that one.

Lines constantly covered. Again, you are correct, but only if the linesmen are experienced. Partial poor reason again due to implied importance of calling lines. And that 2-1 system calls the lines very well.

Keeping officials off the ice when they can't keep up. Laughable. That is the primary basis for my hating the 1-2 at the youth level. As you said, with the ref shortage, anyone with a patch and orange arm bands can ref a game. Extremely poor reason and in fact my greatest reason for saying 1 ref should be abolished.

The little calf slash behind the play? Not really my concern but that is the stuff that leads to bigger problems. AND, when the only ref is watching that, he can be missing plays at the puck. So another poor reason.

The idea 2 refs would lead to MORE penalties. You are reaching. Poor reason.

I agree the 4 man system is preferred. But not really needed at the youth level. 2 man is good through Bantam A. 2-1 for Bantam A and above.

Mouthguard calls. I never said I was against mouthguards for safety. Just against calling a 10 minute penalty for not having it properly in their mouth. Teaching moment. Tell the player. Tell him again. Tell the coach. Teach. I have seen "rule-book" refs call this over and over. Then show during the game they can't officiate. Man in the crease and mouthguards are their focus.

I don't yell at officials. Not when coaching. Not when spectating. Officials that bad always slant their calls away from your team when you yell. Bad officials tend to have rabbit ears. It goes along with the ego and mindset that the game is about HIM, not the players.

As a coach, I will ALWAYS shake the refs hands, say thank you for doing the game. If they called a good game, I will say that specifically. If they were not good, I say nothing but thank you.

Oh, just so you know, I refereed youth up to HS JV for 15 years before quitting to coach my kids in youth hockey. (Back in the day, there were separate JV and Varsity game refs)

To quote my comment to a coach last night:
"We are just gonna have to disagree"

I have worked with officials from all over the world. The highest level officials and trainers agree that the 1-2 is the best system for training and teaching as well as controlling a game.

But hey, congrats on being a JV ref once!

[hockeybc69]

Quacker,

I am not trying to be argumentive on this...

But what is with this 1-2 thats so perfect?

Why cant we have a 1-2, with the asterik that the "2" can get involved with stopping play if they happen to see something thats blatant. I dont care if its a trip, hook, slash or a nose picking.
Why cant those other 2 guys stop play if they see something thats just flat out blatant?
I am all for a ref with his chest puffed out and in control, but these other 2 people on the ice have to have some sort of ability to get involved when its deemed necessary.

[BadgerBob82]

Quack: Your ego takes over again. See, I was not bragging that I reffed youth to the JV level. Only that I have 15 years of experience as a ref. And about 20 years as a coach. And with that experience, I have the knowledge to formulate a well educated opinion.

USA Hockey is the ONLY sanctioning body that thinks 1 referee on the ice is a good thing. The 2-man system works very well at all levels below Bantam A. Every level above Bantam (NOT sanctioned by USA Hockey) believes 2 refs and 1 or 2 linesmen is the best way to call a game. Only an idiot would think removing a referee and adding 2 linesmen makes sense. You love the 1-2 system. A + B = C. You are an egotistical idiot!

Scary part is your ego! You are probably one of the worst referees out there. But hey, you got the whistle!!! Collect your paychecks and laugh to the bank!

Oh, let me ask you a question. Has your ref partner ever called a penalty, waved off a goal, or made a call that you didn't see? If you answer yes, then you have just made my case. If you answer no, you are a liar also.

[QuackerTracker]

Quack: Your ego takes over again. See, I was not bragging that I reffed youth to the JV level. Only that I have 15 years of experience as a ref. And about 20 years as a coach. And with that experience, I have the knowledge to formulate a well educated opinion.

USA Hockey is the ONLY sanctioning body that thinks 1 referee on the ice is a good thing. The 2-man system works very well at all levels below Bantam A. Every level above Bantam (NOT sanctioned by USA Hockey) believes 2 refs and 1 or 2 linesmen is the best way to call a game. Only an idiot would think removing a referee and adding 2 linesmen makes sense. You love the 1-2 system. A + B = C. You are an egotistical idiot!

Scary part is your ego! You are probably one of the worst referees out there. But hey, you got the whistle!!! Collect your paychecks and laugh to the bank!

Oh, let me ask you a question. Has your ref partner ever called a penalty, waved off a goal, or made a call that you didn't see? If you answer yes, then you have just made my case. If you answer no, you are a liar also.

Here are places that do:

Hockey Canda rule book:
Rule 5.2 Referee and Linesman

(a) The Referee and two Linesman are the official representative of Hockey Candada or Branch of Canda Hockey in which the game is being play. They shall be in full control of the players on and off the ice.

From the IIHF:
For all international games, the following officials shall be appointed:
GAME OFFICIALS
- One Referee
- Two Linesmen
OR
- Two Referees
- Two Linesmen

[gostarsgo]

What if the guy in the 1/2 man system has all the consistency in the world and knows the rules, but can't skate good enough to keep up with the play?

What if the guy in the 1/2 is on the district ref board and gets to stripe games because of that?

Physical appearance/condition and overall hustle in the 1 man system is vital for it to work. A number of referees with experience will have trouble keeping up with a fast paced game.

What about the guys who stripe who are reffing your kids game and are doing their 4th game in a row due to a lazy scheduler, lack of available officials, or reffing is their main source of income? Their mental sharpness or physical abilities to perform to the expected level on game number 4 in a row is not very good and unfair to the kids and coaches. Getting a game over and waving icings because they have to get to another rink in 25 minutes or they miss that pay doesn't fly either.

What if all 3 of the officials can call penalties in a 3-0 system and each one of them is 16 years old and on a game over their head. We already stop play for offside in lower level games instead of tag-up, can you imagine how slow the games would be when 3 guys trying to call penalties.
You may get into the 3rd period and then have to call the games.

Go 2-1 and let the linesman learn the ropes.

[QuackerTracker]

What if the guy in the 1/2 man system has all the consistency in the world and knows the rules, but can't skate good enough to keep up with the play?

What if the guy in the 1/2 is on the district ref board and gets to stripe games because of that?

Physical appearance/condition and overall hustle in the 1 man system is vital for it to work. A number of referees with experience will have trouble keeping up with a fast paced game.

What about the guys who stripe who are reffing your kids game and are doing their 4th game in a row due to a lazy scheduler, lack of available officials, or reffing is their main source of income? Their mental sharpness or physical abilities to perform to the expected level on game number 4 in a row is not very good and unfair to the kids and coaches. Getting a game over and waving icings because they have to get to another rink in 25 minutes or they miss that pay doesn't fly either.

What if all 3 of the officials can call penalties in a 3-0 system and each one of them is 16 years old and on a game over their head. We already stop play for offside in lower level games instead of tag-up, can you imagine how slow the games would be when 3 guys trying to call penalties.
You may get into the 3rd period and then have to call the games.

Go 2-1 and let the linesman learn the ropes.

What if we all relax. It's just a game

[hockeybc69]

[quote="gostarsgo"]What if all 3 of the officials can call penalties in a 3-0 system and each one of them is 16 years old and on a game over their head. We already stop play for offside in lower level games instead of tag-up, can you imagine how slow the games would be when 3 guys trying to call penalties.
You may get into the 3rd period and then have to call the games.
[quote]

First of all, I have yet to see one kid at 16 years old with the stripes on in any of our D5 bantam games. So that doesnt seem like a realistic concern.

If the game slows up that much because 3 guys are calling penalties, then there will be a lot of teams losing Fair Play Points, and they will learn real quick to cut the crap if they want to get those points for the team.
I see nothing but good coming from 3 guys that can make a stoppage of play because of an infraction they witness...

[woodley]

What if the guy in the 1/2 man system has all the consistency in the world and knows the rules, but can't skate good enough to keep up with the play?

What if the guy in the 1/2 is on the district ref board and gets to stripe games because of that?

Physical appearance/condition and overall hustle in the 1 man system is vital for it to work. A number of referees with experience will have trouble keeping up with a fast paced game.

What about the guys who stripe who are reffing your kids game and are doing their 4th game in a row due to a lazy scheduler, lack of available officials, or reffing is their main source of income? Their mental sharpness or physical abilities to perform to the expected level on game number 4 in a row is not very good and unfair to the kids and coaches. Getting a game over and waving icings because they have to get to another rink in 25 minutes or they miss that pay doesn't fly either.

What if all 3 of the officials can call penalties in a 3-0 system and each one of them is 16 years old and on a game over their head. We already stop play for offside in lower level games instead of tag-up, can you imagine how slow the games would be when 3 guys trying to call penalties.
You may get into the 3rd period and then have to call the games.

Go 2-1 and let the linesman learn the ropes.

I absolutely agree w/ your contention of the 2-1 system. . . but about your other circumstances. . . hopefully the ref does what I do and realizes that at 50 (and several pounds heavier than I should be) that I can't do a good job keeping up. I know the game well and understand the calls, but I decline reffing the upper level games because I could easily be a detriment. I ref because I love still being involved; however, my integrity demands that I can't let my love of the game interfere with the game that's being played!! Now is the time that I take the PW and Squirt games and work with young refs and players to teach them the skills to ref the upper levels in a few years!!

Now as to people's thoughts of a 3-0 system. . . what a cluster!! If you want multiple refs calling penalties, go w/ the 2-0 or 2-1. Then duties, zone assignments and coverages are clear and easily defined. The 2-1 opens up the refs. While they have to finish the icing calls and take the lead blue line, the linesman takes care of initiating all icing and all faceoffs which allows the refs to focus on the flow of the game while the linesman takes most of the mechanics.