AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

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YouthHockeyHub
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AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

Post by YouthHockeyHub » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:46 pm

I wrote a little piece this week on some of the side effects of the AA/A pilot.

http://youthhockeyhub.com/the-tipping-p ... -sideways/

The last 3 weeks have been very interesting to say the least.

Enjoy,

TS

SWPrez
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Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

Post by SWPrez » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:55 pm

Tony,

Is the increase in waivers more a case of parents not understanding the AA/A concept?

Really, if I understand things correctly, the only place where teams are affected is at playoffs. AA and A teams will play each other all season long just as they have done in the past. At playoffs, they split into AA and A.

Take Bantam A's that play 55-60 games per season. A 'Class A' team will play 45-50 games vs all "A" teams (AA and A) just as they have in the past. For the team that wins the 'Class A' state tourney, their final 10 games (district - 3 games; Regions - 4 games; state - 3 games) of the year are played solely against "A" teams.

I don't see a very compelling reason to waive into a AA program when the only thing that is different is the final 10 games of the season? Do you think parents think that all 55-60 games will be vs AA or A opponents and that is why they want their kid in a AA program?

Toomuchtoosoon
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Post by Toomuchtoosoon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:32 pm

If top players from smaller associsation sare just now jumping to the bigger ones, it does not make sense. Most of these small associations had no chance of getting past districts in the metro, or regions outstate when they went against the top teams. Now they have a chance to have a successful post season, and still play the same regular season schedule.

People need to give it a year to see what happens.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:34 pm

I tried my hardest to warn....

:idea:

skipperj
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Post by skipperj » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:34 pm

Bo knows hockey.

Toomuchtoosoon
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Post by Toomuchtoosoon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:15 pm

One district President said to me, “our Waiver requests quadrupled this year…”
Really? if they normally have 4-5 requestst a year, now it is 16-20? Give me a break. If there would be that many "AA" quality kids in the small association, they would not be leaving.

However, if they normally see one, now it is four-then it is getting a bit dramatic on the association side. I do know of some kids leaving smaller associations (Hopkins for example), that are leaving because the school is going down hill according to the parents. It would be interesting how many new recruits Edina gets since it seems like most of the top players from Edina are leaving before Giles gets ahold of them. THe small association parents may see some opportunity to play for the hornets.

savagegopher
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Post by savagegopher » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:38 pm

Its the smaller associations in D6 that will be losing players, they are stuck playing only A teams in district play.

Toomuchtoosoon
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Post by Toomuchtoosoon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Its the smaller associations in D6 that will be losing players, they are stuck playing only A teams in district play
If they are good enough, set up scrimmages with Edina, Tonka and EP. The big boys will play you if they can get a quality game out of it. Why get beat by 10 goals just to say you played Edina or Wayzata>

YouthHockeyHub
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Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

Post by YouthHockeyHub » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:52 pm

SWPrez wrote:Tony,

Is the increase in waivers more a case of parents not understanding the AA/A concept?

Really, if I understand things correctly, the only place where teams are affected is at playoffs. AA and A teams will play each other all season long just as they have done in the past. At playoffs, they split into AA and A.

Take Bantam A's that play 55-60 games per season. A 'Class A' team will play 45-50 games vs all "A" teams (AA and A) just as they have in the past. For the team that wins the 'Class A' state tourney, their final 10 games (district - 3 games; Regions - 4 games; state - 3 games) of the year are played solely against "A" teams.

I don't see a very compelling reason to waive into a AA program when the only thing that is different is the final 10 games of the season? Do you think parents think that all 55-60 games will be vs AA or A opponents and that is why they want their kid in a AA program?
You nailed it Steve. The perception is far different than the reality. I wish these parents could read your post...thanks. Another perception that I'm picking up on is the AA/A will be the scapegoat for all things (see PW checking last year).

YouthHockeyHub
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Post by YouthHockeyHub » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:55 pm

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:
One district President said to me, “our Waiver requests quadrupled this year…”
Really? if they normally have 4-5 requestst a year, now it is 16-20? Give me a break. If there would be that many "AA" quality kids in the small association, they would not be leaving.

However, if they normally see one, now it is four-then it is getting a bit dramatic on the association side. I do know of some kids leaving smaller associations (Hopkins for example), that are leaving because the school is going down hill according to the parents. It would be interesting how many new recruits Edina gets since it seems like most of the top players from Edina are leaving before Giles gets ahold of them. THe small association parents may see some opportunity to play for the hornets.
My feeling is the number this guy was talking about was 3 to 12 (which is a wow to me).

YouthHockeyHub
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Post by YouthHockeyHub » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:58 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:I tried my hardest to warn....

:idea:
Been saying to myself for the past 3 weeks (begrudgingly), "Bo was right...Bo was right...Bo was right"

:)

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:59 pm

I still thinking District AAA teams. Any kid [from said District can try-out]. AA,A,B,B10 whatever/hold tryouts/ pick teams, Play a AAA type schedule,if the family wants. Then they can come back and play Varsity @ home. Teams can stay together all year round if the want. And the BEST part mom & dad can wear the sweat shirts. :lol:

Toomuchtoosoon
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Post by Toomuchtoosoon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:12 pm

My feeling is the number this guy was talking about was 3 to 12 (which is a wow to me).
Some families are kidding themselves. I have seen a lot of smaller associations and none of them have more than a few kids that could make the big guys AA teams. IF there were 12, they would have a very good program.

YouthHockeyHub
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Post by YouthHockeyHub » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:58 pm

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:
My feeling is the number this guy was talking about was 3 to 12 (which is a wow to me).
Some families are kidding themselves. I have seen a lot of smaller associations and none of them have more than a few kids that could make the big guys AA teams. IF there were 12, they would have a very good program.
The 12 are coming from associations all over the place to one association (couple here, couple there).

hockeyover40
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Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

Post by hockeyover40 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:06 pm

YouthHockeyHub wrote:
SWPrez wrote:Tony,

Is the increase in waivers more a case of parents not understanding the AA/A concept?

Really, if I understand things correctly, the only place where teams are affected is at playoffs. AA and A teams will play each other all season long just as they have done in the past. At playoffs, they split into AA and A.

Take Bantam A's that play 55-60 games per season. A 'Class A' team will play 45-50 games vs all "A" teams (AA and A) just as they have in the past. For the team that wins the 'Class A' state tourney, their final 10 games (district - 3 games; Regions - 4 games; state - 3 games) of the year are played solely against "A" teams.

I don't see a very compelling reason to waive into a AA program when the only thing that is different is the final 10 games of the season? Do you think parents think that all 55-60 games will be vs AA or A opponents and that is why they want their kid in a AA program?
You nailed it Steve. The perception is far different than the reality. I wish these parents could read your post...thanks. Another perception that I'm picking up on is the AA/A will be the scapegoat for all things (see PW checking last year).
I must be missing something, you say AA and A teams will play each other all season long, just as they've done in the past. Top 30 kids from Wayzata will play top 30 kids from OMGHA, MPls,etc.

That isn't the way it's been in the past. Top 15 kids ( A team) from Wayzata played top 15 kids (A team) from OMGHA, Mpls, etc. Kids 16-30 (B1 teams) from Wayzata played kids 16-30 (B1 team) from OMGHA, Mpls, etc. A teams have not played regular season games against B1 teams in the past. Not that I know of anyway.

So how is the same as before until you get to playoffs?

MrBoDangles
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Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

Post by MrBoDangles » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:56 pm

YouthHockeyHub wrote:
SWPrez wrote:Tony,

Is the increase in waivers more a case of parents not understanding the AA/A concept?

Really, if I understand things correctly, the only place where teams are affected is at playoffs. AA and A teams will play each other all season long just as they have done in the past. At playoffs, they split into AA and A.

Take Bantam A's that play 55-60 games per season. A 'Class A' team will play 45-50 games vs all "A" teams (AA and A) just as they have in the past. For the team that wins the 'Class A' state tourney, their final 10 games (district - 3 games; Regions - 4 games; state - 3 games) of the year are played solely against "A" teams.

I don't see a very compelling reason to waive into a AA program when the only thing that is different is the final 10 games of the season? Do you think parents think that all 55-60 games will be vs AA or A opponents and that is why they want their kid in a AA program?
You nailed it Steve. The perception is far different than the reality. I wish these parents could read your post...thanks. Another perception that I'm picking up on is the AA/A will be the scapegoat for all things (see PW checking last year).
The parents perception is that their kids were offered the highest level available in Minnesota and now they're not. :idea:

Are you able to tell these parents, with talented kids, that playing at the highest level of competition is not important for development??

Would you find a new association for your own kids if your border bound association only offered a........ B-2 or C level??? Or any less than you now have?

We had an A level that served as the highest level for most associations and because of that it left most families satisfied, even if they were on a bad A team. That has now changed.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:31 am

It is a MN Hockey rule that every association is allowed to field an A team. That rule has now been effectively circumvented.

Toomuchtoosoon
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Post by Toomuchtoosoon » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:59 am

Are you able to tell these parents, with talented kids, that playing at the highest level of competition is not important for development??
Then please explain to me all these parents who send their top prospects to ST Thomas Academy? And don't tell me its the military lifestyle.

Blake Wheeler and Peter Mueller left AA schools to play A. It did not hurt their draft status. Playing A in a small association will not hinder your development.

ahastars03
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Post by ahastars03 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:09 am

The other issue that no one has really said anything about is if there is a tourney going on lets call it an A tourney. No AA team will want to join that tourney. If it is a AA tourney they are not going to want to let any A teams in it. I think it will be interesting to see the end of the year results as far as how many AA teams did an A team end up playing throughout the whole season.

ogelthorpe
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Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

Post by ogelthorpe » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:36 am

hockeyover40 wrote: I must be missing something, you say AA and A teams will play each other all season long, just as they've done in the past. Top 30 kids from Wayzata will play top 30 kids from OMGHA, MPls,etc.

That isn't the way it's been in the past. Top 15 kids ( A team) from Wayzata played top 15 kids (A team) from OMGHA, Mpls, etc. Kids 16-30 (B1 teams) from Wayzata played kids 16-30 (B1 team) from OMGHA, Mpls, etc. A teams have not played regular season games against B1 teams in the past. Not that I know of anyway.

So how is the same as before until you get to playoffs?
I have been wondering about this as well, if nothing is changing other then the playoffs, why would an association field a AA and a A team? Unless they do what Wayzata did last year and have two equal AA teams.

I am not sure what the purpose of doing this is. To get more associations to State?

It seems to me the issue is that associations don't take a realistic look at their talent pool and play at the appropriate level. Some of this is political pressure (fielding two B teams instead of a B and C team or fielding an A team when the talent dictates the top team should be a B team) by parents. As far as I can tell, this is MN Hockey trying to take some of that away since associations tend to play at a higher level of competition then their talent would dictate.

savagegopher
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Post by savagegopher » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:26 am

I think its tough for a smaller association, you may have 8 A players but need 15 and your District may want you to have an A team what do you do,

observer
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Post by observer » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:01 am

The 12 are coming from associations all over the place to one association (couple here, couple there).
This makes no sense to me at all. 12 players coming into a strong association because they want to play AA? If the association is strong, and planning on playing AA, there aren't 12 spots to earn and those 12 players aren't going to make the AA team. And, the residents of that community aren't going to be happy with their community based association, MN Hockey or the players and families that come into their association. I'll call this a false or largely exaggerated rumor.

I believe this whole AA idea was cooked up by selfish dads wanting to try and play at the highest level, against the highest competition, at the expense of the other A teams in their District. Similar to when some selfish dads cooked up the "Maroon & Gold" League which was supposed to be a club of only the strongest bantam teams and associations. Several Maroon & Gold teams lost to teams outside of their club so clearly they weren't the best but wanted to think they were special. Again, selfish.

When some associations have 45 total A or AA players at 3 levels, and 200 B & C players at the same 3 levels. Why in the world would associations and MN Hockey cater to the selfish few.

I agree with Bo. This should be shot down now. Idea/Experiment failed because of selfishness. It could have worked until dads decided they wanted to tweak if even further because of their selfish nature. Brutal.

Bluewhitefan
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Post by Bluewhitefan » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:27 am

observer wrote:
The 12 are coming from associations all over the place to one association (couple here, couple there).
This makes no sense to me at all. 12 players coming into a strong association because they want to play AA? If the association is strong, and planning on playing AA, there aren't 12 spots to earn and those 12 players aren't going to make the AA team. And, the residents of that community aren't going to be happy with their community based association, MN Hockey or the players and families that come into their association. I'll call this a false or largely exaggerated rumor.

I believe this whole AA idea was cooked up by selfish dads wanting to try and play at the highest level, against the highest competition, at the expense of the other A teams in their District. Similar to when some selfish dads cooked up the "Maroon & Gold" League which was supposed to be a club of only the strongest bantam teams and associations. Several Maroon & Gold teams lost to teams outside of their club so clearly they weren't the best but wanted to think they were special. Again, selfish.

When some associations have 45 total A or AA players at 3 levels, and 200 B & C players at the same 3 levels. Why in the world would associations and MN Hockey cater to the selfish few.

I agree with Bo. This should be shot down now. Idea/Experiment failed because of selfishness. It could have worked until dads decided they wanted to tweak if even further because of their selfish nature. Brutal.
Somebody has an extreme "poor-me" attitude. The M&G league wasn't set up by a bunch of selfish dads. It is simply a group of coaches that got together to set a more formal slate of "scrimmages." They've been able to get an extra 10-12 games that would previously have been scrimmages. Any group of selfish coaches could do the same thing if they wanted to.

As far as the AA/A setup goes, I think you need to quit whining and give it a chance for a year. Selfish dads again? Where are you getting this garbage? It's simply another level. If everyone plays at the level they should - it will all work out just fine.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:57 pm

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:
Are you able to tell these parents, with talented kids, that playing at the highest level of competition is not important for development??
Then please explain to me all these parents who send their top prospects to ST Thomas Academy? And don't tell me its the military lifestyle.

Blake Wheeler and Peter Mueller left AA schools to play A. It did not hurt their draft status. Playing A in a small association will not hinder your development.
You have to be joking, right? Those schools schedule SSM and some of the other best prep schools in the country..... The strengths of schedule are towards the top.

Have you seen the Class A finals the last 5-6 years...? Sandbaggers is the word!

:shock: :idea:

YouthHockeyHub
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Post by YouthHockeyHub » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:37 pm

observer wrote:
The 12 are coming from associations all over the place to one association (couple here, couple there).
This makes no sense to me at all. 12 players coming into a strong association because they want to play AA? If the association is strong, and planning on playing AA, there aren't 12 spots to earn and those 12 players aren't going to make the AA team. And, the residents of that community aren't going to be happy with their community based association, MN Hockey or the players and families that come into their association. I'll call this a false or largely exaggerated rumor.

I believe this whole AA idea was cooked up by selfish dads wanting to try and play at the highest level, against the highest competition, at the expense of the other A teams in their District. Similar to when some selfish dads cooked up the "Maroon & Gold" League which was supposed to be a club of only the strongest bantam teams and associations. Several Maroon & Gold teams lost to teams outside of their club so clearly they weren't the best but wanted to think they were special. Again, selfish.

When some associations have 45 total A or AA players at 3 levels, and 200 B & C players at the same 3 levels. Why in the world would associations and MN Hockey cater to the selfish few.

I agree with Bo. This should be shot down now. Idea/Experiment failed because of selfishness. It could have worked until dads decided they wanted to tweak if even further because of their selfish nature. Brutal.
The number is exact, I verified it today - 12 new bodies across peewee and bantam levels.

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