Association or AAA ?

[Napalm187]

ADM is goofy and is a one size fits all strategy for kids, that will not benefit stronger skaters.

USA Hockey is ceding ground to Canada, Europe and the russkies with their pollyanish approach to teaching the game

And Mn community-based hockey is a complete joke. Even PL.

Better send that 3 year old to billet in Saskatoon!

[savagegopher]

The reality is MN Made wont take your kid until he is 6, PL will allow them to skate Rookies at 4 so your only real option is PL

[BadgerBob82]

ADM does have a "feel good" approach and Mn Made would be foolish to adopt that model. (Too much competition from associations) Bernie is not marketing to the kids. Rather to keep the parents opening their wallets. And no question at all that skills & drills several hours per week will accelerate development, especially at the single digit ages. However, taking the fun out of learning skills at single digit ages, allowing 11-12 months of hockey per year will limit the years of hockey played after age 18.

[MrBoDangles]

Are you guys really taking this seriously? Advice on a THREE year old on what to do next year as a FOUR year old?

- Sign him up for association IF he's ready
- Have fun with him on the pond
- Look into good mental hospitals if you feel the need to go beyond.

[JSR]

ADM is goofy and is a one size fits all strategy for kids, that will not benefit stronger skaters.
USA Hockey is ceding ground to Canada, Europe and the russkies with their pollyanish approach to teaching the game

And Mn community-based hockey is a complete joke. Even PL.

Better send that 3 year old to billet in Saskatoon!

I disagree... I have seen first hand the benefits both long term and short term. Small area games and the station work benefit stronger skaters quite a bit actually. The reality is that hockey is just a series of small area games, the ADM model addresses this. I was quite skeptical myself but my oldest son is now a 2nd year pee wee and was brought up through the ranks via this model due to a coach who embraced it years before it was envogue and also was lucky enough to be coached by another great coach who now happens to be the head coach of tOSU and he also was a huge proponent of the model back then as well. I also see it in my 2005 born players who is a U8 and he has played up with 2002's and hold's his own and I think this ADM model is part of that equaiton. Now it's not the be all end all, good players do alot of off ice work on their own outside of their team practice and games but they always have, and they maybe take skating lessons additionally etc.. etc... I do believe there are also great benefits i the ADM model to the bottom end players as well, but the reality is the best players are still the best players and now they have an opportunity to hone their skills in tighter spaces but it doesn't hold them back if they are being properly coached and have proper teammates around them and playing against them..

[Section 8 guy]

The best thing the ADM does is it keeps your practices focused on skill development, which is exactly where they should be, and protects your kid from a misguided coach who might otherwise spend all of Tuesday nights practice teaching positioning or systems because he is hell bent on winning this weekends termite or mite game for his own egos sake.

An ADM taught kid will skate right around the positioning/systems taught kid by the time they are 10 years old so it won't matter where the kid is positioned at that point anyways.

Remember, It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[Napalm187]

ADM focusing on skill development? Interesting. ADM will set back hockey in the US to the stone ages of the 50's, 60's & 70's. Teaching good skating is the #1, #2 & #3 most important thing to young players learning the game. The best skaters are usually the best players. To maximize a kids abilities, you need to use full ice, not 1/4, not 1/8 or 1/10. Teaching inside or outside edges, power turns,etc. on half a zone is a waste of time when if you use the full ice you get more reps at a faster pace. Going down 200 ft. you can do 8-12 inside edges, vs. getting 2-3 in that small aforementioned space. Practices need to be effecient with every square inch of that ice out there. At ADM association practices I see kids skating hard for maybe 8-10 minutes out of an hour practice. They should be skating hard for at least 35-40. Full ice practices at a quick pace using the whole ice is the best method to teach this game. Canadians seem to get it. Why can't we? ADM is a joke. The kids are the ones getting hurt by it, because our counterparts around the world will do a lot better job of making their kids into better skaters and hockey players because they don't baby their kids. Fun! Stations! 3v3! Good times.

[old goalie85]

Sect 8- I agree. Let em play!!!! @ 4/5/6/ We should want them telling their buddys how great hockey is!! Not that I skate cones for _______

[O-townClown]

Napalm, it doesn't seem you are very familiar with the ADM.

[old goalie85]

Where is HD-41 ? I would like to hear his take now that young HD is a little older.

[black sheep]

Are you guys really taking this seriously? Advice on a THREE year old on what to do next year as a FOUR year old?

if genuine, i don't think its too much of a stretch, especially if your unfamiliar with the current hockey landscape. i know we started laying out a path for our youngest around this age.

this does not mean it has to be AAA this, super team that, but you can never go wrong with a plan. Investing time and resources and a young age is never a poor decision. They are the best learning years.

Always play for your Association then > add what you feel you need. Remember sports is a social skill as much as a physical one and for some even more so.

Age 3-4, focus on skating, skating, skating...no sticks till you can skate
Age 5-6, skill development and lots of it
Age 7-10, specialized training, treadmill, skating coaches, camps & AAA

I would say if there is one thing you can do to help your player, is get out on the rink with them, take a personal interest in helping them develop, do not just sit back and think you can write checks. You don't have to be a world class skater, or a NHL or D1 alum to help your players skill development. Research and apply, repeat.

[MrBoDangles]

Are you guys really taking this seriously? Advice on a THREE year old on what to do next year as a FOUR year old?

if genuine, i don't think its too much of a stretch, especially if your unfamiliar with the current hockey landscape. i know we started laying out a path for our youngest around this age.

this does not mean it has to be AAA this, super team that, but you can never go wrong with a plan. Investing time and resources and a young age is never a poor decision. They are the best learning years.

Always play for your Association then > add what you feel you need. Remember sports is a social skill as much as a physical one and for some even more so.

Age 3-4, focus on skating, skating, skating...no sticks till you can skate
Age 5-6, skill development and lots of it
Age 7-10, specialized training, treadmill, skating coaches, camps & AAA

I would say if there is one thing you can do to help your player, is get out on the rink with them, take a personal interest in helping them develop, do not just sit back and think you can write checks. You don't have to be a world class skater, or a NHL or D1 alum to help your players skill development. Research and apply, repeat.

"Feel what you need"?

This "plan" stuff for 3-4 year old is giving me the creeps.

Age 3-4, let them skate on the pond with a STICK. stand in front of the net but let them score every once and a while and get super excited. they feed off of your excitement. Skate backwards slowly and let them deke around you. Get super excited and tell them sweet move. play some tag. Make It FUN and THEY'LL be the one's wanting you to open your checkbook for the "extras" down the road.

[HockeyNut2]

I couldn't disagree more. I had similar questions and went and watched practices for Mites at Minnesota Made to see if it's something I should consider for my boys. What I saw was traditional drill work. Kid skates the drill and gets back in line waits a few minutes and does it again.

I don't know about anyone elses kids, but a couple of minutes standing around after each drill for a 5 year old invites screwing around and boredom, and it seemed like there was a lot of time standing around. The drills themselves were nothing we couldn't do at open skating.

When I watch the kids in ADM, the only time they are not skating, stopping, starting, running into each other, etc etc is when they are changing stations. My boys abilities have skyrocketed over the course of the last year and he's having fun.

I'm not suggesting his skill level would not have done the same with traditional drill-work, but I do wonder how happy he'd be to go to a practice of drills drills and more drills.

Most associations start to fade out the ADM at higher Mites levels and start moving to more half-ice/full ice work and start stretching out the legs a bit... personally I think it's a good approach to implement ADM fully for young kids to keep them engaged and slowly phase it out as the kids get older and things get more serious.

As a result of my own digging on this we decided to go association during the winter and supplement with a 3 on 3 league in the spring and fall. When the kids are older I'll consider supplementing with clinics/camps/whatever during the summer if the boys want, but not at the expense of playing other sports.

ADM focusing on skill development? Interesting. ADM will set back hockey in the US to the stone ages of the 50's, 60's & 70's. Teaching good skating is the #1, #2 & #3 most important thing to young players learning the game. The best skaters are usually the best players. To maximize a kids abilities, you need to use full ice, not 1/4, not 1/8 or 1/10. Teaching inside or outside edges, power turns,etc. on half a zone is a waste of time when if you use the full ice you get more reps at a faster pace. Going down 200 ft. you can do 8-12 inside edges, vs. getting 2-3 in that small aforementioned space. Practices need to be effecient with every square inch of that ice out there. At ADM association practices I see kids skating hard for maybe 8-10 minutes out of an hour practice. They should be skating hard for at least 35-40. Full ice practices at a quick pace using the whole ice is the best method to teach this game. Canadians seem to get it. Why can't we? ADM is a joke. The kids are the ones getting hurt by it, because our counterparts around the world will do a lot better job of making their kids into better skaters and hockey players because they don't baby their kids. Fun! Stations! 3v3! Good times.

[SCBlueLiner]

Since this thread has broken topic and seems to be trending towards a referendum on ADM. With regards to ADM, and a little background. I grew up playing hockey, which I love, but ended up playing college football. Fast forward about 15 years and my son hits that age were he's going to start playing hockey, ADM is just hitting the scene. ADM, with how the ice is broken down into stations, continuous drills, rotating through the stations. Well, my reaction was DUH! It is exactly how a college football practice is broken down. Practice is broken into segments, horn blows, move from station to station whether it be individual, group, or team period. Coaches are only allowed so many hours a week for practice in college football so not a minute is wasted. Every practice is efficient and effectively run. ADM seemed a natural way of doing things after going through that and the only way to run a practice.

Now, the concerns I have are the mites who are now first year squirts, the ones who did not play any summer hockey, are really struggling. There is a lack of open ice speed, which is my biggest concern, and awareness of where they are on the ice. Defensively, it seems none of these kids can handle skating backwards and taking on a forward one-on-one. In cross ice play these kids didn't skate backwards in one on ones, they spent there time skating side by side and playing defensively that way. In a cross ice game these kids were never out of the play. That can be good and bad. Playing in tight spaces can be good. Cross ice also teaches them that they are never more than a few strides out of the play and the puck will be coming back soon enough so just stand there. Now when they moved to full ice they get out of the play and it's over, the play isn't going to come back to them like it did in cross ice. You have to move your butt to get back in the play, boys. The full ice play looks like a disjointed mess.

I think ADM, with its small area games and divided ice practices are a good thing and should be done at all levels, to an extent. I also think there needs to be a mix of ADM and full ice play once these kids hit 8 years old to transition them to a full ice game and develop more open ice speed.

OG, curious, since you've been through it with your kids. At what age would you start your child in AAA (Summer) hockey if you were to do it all over? My son played this summer for the first time (10 yr old) and it helped him tremendously development-wise. As a player it is night and day from right now compared to the end of last winter, he got that much better this summer. It feels like we haven't had a quality, up tempo practice in our association yet this season like we had in August with his summer team. Those boys were really firing on all cyclinders and flying around those last few August practices.

[greybeard58]

Broten 7
My suggestion is to enjoy the moments when you and your son are doing things together. Go to a pond or outdoor rink and skate with him. He will enjoy being with dad more than being with anyone else. Do not forget the goodies when you are done, make it fun and you will get the enjoyment of a life time. Time does fly enjoy every moment with your children you can,before you know it they are grown up and gone but you will still have the memories and so will your son.

[Shinbone_News]

Just to be clear, the ADM doesn't start and stop with Mites. It's a "development" model based on Long Term Athlete Development that goes roughly from age 6 - 18 and beyond, and addresses specific age-based needs of players as they develop. (Skills before 12, strength/conditioning at puberty, etc.)

For the naysayers that think small-area games are a waste of time -- tell that to the Gophers and the Wild (and the Mavs, and the Huskies, and the Bulldogs, and the Hornets and so on and so on), who regularly play cross-ice in practices specifically to develop speed and agility in close quarters. Go watch a practice of any respectable elites anywhere. You'll see cross-ice

And to those who prefer "old school, European and Canadian-style hockey" -- the ADM was specifically designed to mimic what's done in Sweden, Russia, Czechoslavakia -- all those tiny countries that produce world-class NHL talent disproportionate to their size. Hockey Canada is also moving toward the ADM, recognizing the hugely positive effect it has had on US hockey.

Not sayin, just sayin.

[stonehands]

SC is right on.

The ADM stuff is great, but needs to be mixed in with full ice.

ADM will work well developing certain types of players, not all.

Some players will mature earlier on big ice and will struggle with small ice skills and games - conversely, others will shine early in small ice stuff but struggle on big ice and understanding of the game as a whole.

Working strictly on ADM stuff will ultimately develop a smaller group of players.

Big ice, small ice (ADM) combination will develop a larger piece of the pie and ultimately create a much deeper and stronger pool of players.

[SCBlueLiner]

Shin-

USAH pumps out tons of printed material on ADM with practice plans and such that focuses on ages up to mites. Red, White, & Blue, DVD's, etc. After that, not so much. They talk about LTAD, learning to train, training to win, etc, etc, but their primary focus seems to be mites and under.

I guess you can go to USAH website and get practice plans for squirts, nothing after that. Have you seen some of the squirt practice plans though? Horribly simplistic for kids that age, some really hokey games and drills, many really beneath their ability level.

They say ADM is about Long Term Athletic Development. Their actions and printed materials tell me something different.

[intothezone]

I can't even believe this is up for discussion. 3????? Wow! Would a child want to go to preschool if he had to sit at a desk all day and do flashcards? Why on earth would a 3 year old want to play hockey if they only did drill after drill? To answer the original question association or aaa? AAA is not even an option at this age. Play association and let the preschooler have some fun and fall in love with the game first before you dump a bunch of money into MN Made. It does not matter where you play! Just play and have fun with it!

[Napalm187]

This topic has veered a little off. Of course you don't have a three year old start doing drills, drills, drills. With all of mine, and I'm sure with 99% of the rest, it's going up to the park (or pond) and just learning how to skate, batting the puck around and doing the goalie/d thing against your kids and letting them beat you. At 4, I think the same thing but I started having them do inside/outside edges power turns etc. for about 10% of that time we were at the park. When they turn 5, most start in associations. We waited till 6. First year is all about learning, enjoying and yes having that association fun! After that though...the kids need to learn how to skate full ice. If association ran ADM style practices 1 outta every 3/4 practices at Mites, I think that'd be fine. Cross-ices games should be very minimal. And if you do, you have to coach them to possess the puck, find open ice, head up etc. Instead of what most association coaches do...just let them putter around. ADM is fine in small doses, but the primary focus should be on what I mentioned earlier.

SC is right. Open-ice speed will be severely comprimised by ADM and 3v3. My HS'er and pee wee are some of the fastest kids at their age levels. I saw kids at their ability level when they were mites/squirts weakened by doing too much 3v3 and hearing about their ADM focused practices. Open ice speed and great hands are what seperates the elite from the good players. The bottom line is that I've seen for over 30 years what comprimised practices can do to players. Skate them hard starting at 7 & 8!

Shin- usually I like what your sayin' on here, but on the ADM thing I think you've been smokin' the peace pipe a little too much. Canada seeing the success of the US model? Easily the funniest thing I've seen on here in a long time. Go watch a high end Canadian team practice sometime. It is high-intensity, lot of skating, fast-paced and kids skate hard...35-40 something minutes out of an hour. Instead of 8. Oh, and like MM they usually practice 90minutes+ instead of this hour BS. Why do even some Bantams team do the hour thing??? Unbelievable. Their are 7-8 year olds having 90 football practices...2 hour soccer practices...etc. and I have seen some Bantam A teams have one hour practices. After mites, it should'nt be any less than 90 minutes.

If you can't tell their isn't much right MN hockey can do in my book. It is all designed for failure. But hey, the MN HS hockey tourney is awesome ain't it? I won a title back in the day, and it isn't worth all the pony show. Keep association hockey and the like and change it to teach them the game better, but MN hockey needs Tier 1 hockey for kids. It's a crime that they don't have it.

[BadgerBob82]

Yeah Napalm, the topic has veered a little. I think you tunnel vision directly toward the top elite athlete and say what they do at age 16-18 should be done at age 7? ADM at the mite level is one size fits all to a point. At the very beginning of kids entry to hockey, ADM practices are ideal. As they move to Squirt, PW, Bantam, HS, Jr's, College, NHL the practices will change. Should a Bantam team run the exact same practice plan as ADM shows for 7 year olds? No, but pretty obvious a 7 year old shouldn't be doing a Bantam practice plan either.

[Snap Happy]

I think you guys took this too far. You should have been able to tell just by his question that he is truly new to the situation as AAA and Association don't really conflict here in MN.

We don't need to send him off with his tail between his legs for asking an honest question.

[the_juiceman]

This topic has veered a little off. Of course you don't have a three year old start doing drills, drills, drills. With all of mine, and I'm sure with 99% of the rest, it's going up to the park (or pond) and just learning how to skate, batting the puck around and doing the goalie/d thing against your kids and letting them beat you. At 4, I think the same thing but I started having them do inside/outside edges power turns etc. for about 10% of that time we were at the park. When they turn 5, most start in associations. We waited till 6. First year is all about learning, enjoying and yes having that association fun! After that though...the kids need to learn how to skate full ice. If association ran ADM style practices 1 outta every 3/4 practices at Mites, I think that'd be fine. Cross-ices games should be very minimal. And if you do, you have to coach them to possess the puck, find open ice, head up etc. Instead of what most association coaches do...just let them putter around. ADM is fine in small doses, but the primary focus should be on what I mentioned earlier.

SC is right. Open-ice speed will be severely comprimised by ADM and 3v3. My HS'er and pee wee are some of the fastest kids at their age levels. I saw kids at their ability level when they were mites/squirts weakened by doing too much 3v3 and hearing about their ADM focused practices. Open ice speed and great hands are what seperates the elite from the good players. The bottom line is that I've seen for over 30 years what comprimised practices can do to players. Skate them hard starting at 7 & 8!

Shin- usually I like what your sayin' on here, but on the ADM thing I think you've been smokin' the peace pipe a little too much. Canada seeing the success of the US model? Easily the funniest thing I've seen on here in a long time. Go watch a high end Canadian team practice sometime. It is high-intensity, lot of skating, fast-paced and kids skate hard...35-40 something minutes out of an hour. Instead of 8. Oh, and like MM they usually practice 90minutes+ instead of this hour BS. Why do even some Bantams team do the hour thing??? Unbelievable. Their are 7-8 year olds having 90 football practices...2 hour soccer practices...etc. and I have seen some Bantam A teams have one hour practices. After mites, it should'nt be any less than 90 minutes.

If you can't tell their isn't much right MN hockey can do in my book. It is all designed for failure. But hey, the MN HS hockey tourney is awesome ain't it? I won a title back in the day, and it isn't worth all the pony show. Keep association hockey and the like and change it to teach them the game better, but MN hockey needs Tier 1 hockey for kids. It's a crime that they don't have it.

tough to do 90 min practices because ice time is limited by the number of teams some assc. have, and the cost factor as well.

[O-townClown]

Shin- USAH pumps out tons of printed material on ADM with practice plans and such that focuses on ages up to mites. Red, White, & Blue, DVD's, etc. After that, not so much. They talk about LTAD, learning to train, training to win, etc, etc, but their primary focus seems to be mites and under.

The ADM was drawn up for all ages and implementation began from the bottom-up starting with 8 & Unders. They would have moved faster on HPCs, but there was so much resistance that the initiative got sidetracked.

Checking education began last year and was centered mostly around 11-14. I think you'll continue to see the focus of ADM implementation roll up in age over time.

ADM is like political issues. Many people disagree with it and then complain that USA Hockey hasn't seen more acceptance. Shouldn't the folks that disagree with the philosophy be happy with that?

It's obvious to me that skill-based work at the younger ages will create more players to draw from nationwide. Watch most games and it is apparent that too many kids lack the basic skills to make plays at the speed of the games for their age group. A nationwide initiative to address that makes sense to me.

[old goalie85]

As much as I hate to admit it Burnaldo gets it.[ To a degree] We practice 5th grade football/baseball/lacross/soccer 2.5 hours all the time. I think a combo of the small games/full ice edge work for 1.5 hrs is the way to go. Throw some system work @ the the kids as they get older. I know this will get me a bunch of crap, but on the top end teams a little more system work, because if we are trying to keep kids you need to try to win!! I know I'm a bad human for suggesting such a thing, Winning is fun though, In our town kids wrestle because they win.