AA

[MrBoDangles]

thanks for the insights on the Bantams.

It will be interesting to see if the likes of Stillwater and WBL developed as well at B1 as the other programs did at A. I think they are probably the biggest programs in the state not to do the AA/A split.

They both did have 2 equal B1 teams. I am sure they would have been similar to ER or Woodbury if they had done the same. D2 was very competitive in B1 so many very good games since no teams had the AA/A split.

Do you all believe Pee Wee was as Successful as Bantam with the split. I would think because they are younger the amount of devlepment and progression could be even greater...I may be wrong though.

Agree, District 2 was smart and left things alone.

The District 2 Peewees had no clear line of division in the standings by what class their high school is in.... Then why divide for the playoffs??

[BluehawkHockey]

Yes there were blowouts. But that doesn't mean you can't learn from it. If every game is a blowout, that doesn't do any good. But a few blowouts don't hurt you. And if there wasn't a AA/A split, that same team would have still played a level and still gotten blown out but by an A team instead of a AA team. And, they would have had no shot at going to regions. Who's to say they didn't learn something from those blowouts. And because of them, they were able to get a win against a AA team.

Completely separating AA from A doesn't necessarily solve any problems. But it does eliminate some challenges that can provide for growth and development.

[redlightclub]

It appears Woodbury, Edina and elk river are the only ones with AA and A to make regions. I know Duluth east and hermantown have AA as well but they were guaranteed regions due to the amount of A teams up north.

I personally think these next 15 kids will benefit greatly from playing at a higher level than b1.

Both East and Hermantown's "second or A" teams beat Cloquet's AA team this season. Proctor opted down a couple weeks into the season to B. Denfeld chose to play B to start the season. Silver Bay and Two Harbors coop for North Shore making it a stronger team. Also, Hermantown's third team "B" beat denfeld earlier in the year. So I would have to assume after their respective AA teams, East and Hermantown are the 2 next best teams at bantams in district 11?. Based on results it would appear they would have earned it.

[helightsthelamp]

Some other points for consideration on this topic:

#1) It will never be perfect
#2) A teams without a AA team will typically fair better against AA teams then an A team that also has a AA team. Why? Because you will have a few kids (3-5) in group of 1-15 that help them compete against the top teams as they are AA caliber players. A teams that also have AA team will typically be from larger organizations, as such the second and third lines on these teams will typically be deeper and a little stronger then the smaller assocation 1-15.
#3) aforementioned creates parity at A level but disparity at A vs AA level...
#4) Supports ALLOWING A to play AA, but don't force it... Top A team may match up very well with lower AA team and should play each other
#5) A teams that also have AA teams are playing at the right level at A, more disparity would be created by these teams playing at B1.

I am generalizing, while this does not play out in all scenario's over the course of the season, in genral, I think above is an accurate representation

[helightsthelamp]

Yes there were blowouts. But that doesn't mean you can't learn from it. If every game is a blowout, that doesn't do any good. But a few blowouts don't hurt you. And if there wasn't a AA/A split, that same team would have still played a level and still gotten blown out but by an A team instead of a AA team. And, they would have had no shot at going to regions. Who's to say they didn't learn something from those blowouts. And because of them, they were able to get a win against a AA team.

Completely separating AA from A doesn't necessarily solve any problems. But it does eliminate some challenges that can provide for growth and development.

The rest of the A teams fared fairly well against the AA teams. I think only NCBD and SLP managed to get wins against AA teams but the rest of the teams weren't getting beat by double digits.

Which one is it Hawk? your quote indicates the only teams that struggled were those that didn't also have an AA team... and they were not getting beat by double digits... I just used NCBD as one example.. I can list more, but won't waste my time... look for yourself at D10 website before making statement that are not true...

Blowouts are a part of the game and yes you can have learning experiences from them... Repeated blowouts because you are forced to play teams which are flat out better then you is not good for development not to mention what it does to a players confidence...

[MrBoDangles]

All will have an epiphany that A is really just B-1 when it is adjusted so that A doesn't play AA during the regular season.

Play with the big boys- or play second tier A(B-1).

Fail and end quickly- or A simply morphing into the new B-1 were the only two possible outcomes from the start.

[helightsthelamp]

All will have an epiphany that A is really just B-1 when it is adjusted so that A doesn't play AA during the regular season.

Play with the big boys- or play second tier A(B-1).

Fail and end quickly- or A simply morphing into the new B-1 were the only two possible outcomes from the start.

Agreed, but maybe just maybe MNH will allow for the two levels to compete against each other.... UGH don't wake me up from my dream...

[BluehawkHockey]

The rest of the A teams fared fairly well against the AA teams. I think only NCBD and SLP managed to get wins against AA teams but the rest of the teams weren't getting beat by double digits.

Which one is it Hawk? your quote indicates the only teams that struggled were those that didn't also have an AA team... and they were not getting beat by double digits... I just used NCBD as one example.. I can list more, but won't waste my time... look for yourself at D10 website before making statement that are not true...

Blowouts are a part of the game and yes you can have learning experiences from them... Repeated blowouts because you are forced to play teams which are flat out better then you is not good for development not to mention what it does to a players confidence...

Well Lights, maybe if you could read and understand complex sentence structures, you would have understood that I was saying the teams with a AA sibling struggled the most against AA teams, except for Centennial.

I know exactly what is on the D10 website. That is only data and it must be analyzed by those who see it. My statement is an opinion which can never be wrong.

[MrBoDangles]

Elliot

My understanding of why they did the AA/A split was so the smaller associations that normally played B1 or had little to no success at the A level would be able to field competitive A teams.

Here is how I would like to see it handled

AA teams can have a AA team and then a B1 team
A teams can have an A team and then a B1 team

Teams can schedule non-district games with either AA or A teams. I would like the districts to have the AA and A unbalanced schedule. I understand people will disagree with me however if you have 1-15 from each association they games should not be blowouts for every single cross over game. However it needs to be uniform through out each district. I do not think we should allow each district to choose how they want to schedule their district games between the AA and A teams.

My two cents. for what its worth not like it matters what we think since MN hockey does the opposite of what the people voice.

"AA teams can have a AA team and then a B-1"

The scramble(movement) to not be stuck playing two to three levels back will be like we've never seen before.

#17 plays AA and #18 plays B-1...?

I'm POSITIVE that things will be even worse next year because of this way of thinking.

[LowLight21]

I'll repeat what I've said other places here... it's important that we distinguish between Tier 1 A (1-17) and Tier 2 A (18-34). There were 14 Tier 2 A teams in the state:

D3: OMG, Wayzata
D6: Minnetonka, Edina, Eden Prairie, Prior Lake
D8: Woodbury
D9: Rochester
D10: Centennial, Elk River, Blaine
D11: Duluth East, Hermantown
D15: Moorhead

Each district was responsible for structuring their league and schedule according to the makeup of their A and AA teams. D6 created the most parity by creating separate A and AA leagues, so Tier 2 A teams never faced AA teams but had an opportunity to match up against Tier 1 A teams that weren't traditional powers. D10 could have elected to do this, but they decided to blend the league, which obviously has its issues. D8 followed the same pattern as D10. D3 only has two AA so they also had to blend the league but also weighting schedules.

If I had full schedules of all teams here, I could put together some actual statistics, but most teams don't have full schedules and results on their websites.

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

[quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"]Elliot

My understanding of why they did the AA/A split was so the smaller associations that normally played B1 or had little to no success at the A level would be able to field competitive A teams.

Here is how I would like to see it handled

AA teams can have a AA team and then a B1 team
A teams can have an A team and then a B1 team

Teams can schedule non-district games with either AA or A teams. I would like the districts to have the AA and A unbalanced schedule. I understand people will disagree with me however if you have 1-15 from each association they games should not be blowouts for every single cross over game. However it needs to be uniform through out each district. I do not think we should allow each district to choose how they want to schedule their district games between the AA and A teams.

My two cents. for what its worth not like it matters what we think since MN hockey does the opposite of what the people voice.[/quote]
"AA teams can have a AA team and then a B-1"

The scramble(movement) to not be stuck playing two to three levels back will be like we've never seen before.

#17 plays AA and #18 plays B-1...?

I'm POSITIVE that things will be even worse next year because of this way of thinking.[/quote]


If they are basing this off the high school model which is what they have said they are basing this off of that is how it should be.

Since when have you seen a AA varsity high school team also have a A varsity high school team. NEVER

Do not claim to base this off the high school model if you are going to allow associations to have both AA and A teams.

Minnesota hockey can also not claim they are doing smaller associations a favor by making an A level for small associations if you are going to allow the bigger associations to also have A teams. In all accounts your doing the bigger associations a favor.

[MrBoDangles]

Elliot

My understanding of why they did the AA/A split was so the smaller associations that normally played B1 or had little to no success at the A level would be able to field competitive A teams.

Here is how I would like to see it handled

AA teams can have a AA team and then a B1 team
A teams can have an A team and then a B1 team

Teams can schedule non-district games with either AA or A teams. I would like the districts to have the AA and A unbalanced schedule. I understand people will disagree with me however if you have 1-15 from each association they games should not be blowouts for every single cross over game. However it needs to be uniform through out each district. I do not think we should allow each district to choose how they want to schedule their district games between the AA and A teams.

My two cents. for what its worth not like it matters what we think since MN hockey does the opposite of what the people voice.

"AA teams can have a AA team and then a B-1"

The scramble(movement) to not be stuck playing two to three levels back will be like we've never seen before.

#17 plays AA and #18 plays B-1...?

I'm POSITIVE that things will be even worse next year because of this way of thinking.

If they are basing this off the high school model which is what they have said they are basing this off of that is how it should be.

Since when have you seen a AA varsity high school team also have a A varsity high school team. NEVER

Do not claim to base this off the high school model if you are going to allow associations to have both AA and A teams.

Minnesota hockey can also not claim they are doing smaller associations a favor by making an A level for small associations if you are going to allow the bigger associations to also have A teams. In all accounts your doing the bigger associations a favor.

Go to the Mahtomedi A Bantam topic.

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

[quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="MrBoDangles"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"]Elliot

My understanding of why they did the AA/A split was so the smaller associations that normally played B1 or had little to no success at the A level would be able to field competitive A teams.

Here is how I would like to see it handled

AA teams can have a AA team and then a B1 team
A teams can have an A team and then a B1 team

Teams can schedule non-district games with either AA or A teams. I would like the districts to have the AA and A unbalanced schedule. I understand people will disagree with me however if you have 1-15 from each association they games should not be blowouts for every single cross over game. However it needs to be uniform through out each district. I do not think we should allow each district to choose how they want to schedule their district games between the AA and A teams.

My two cents. for what its worth not like it matters what we think since MN hockey does the opposite of what the people voice.[/quote]
"AA teams can have a AA team and then a B-1"

The scramble(movement) to not be stuck playing two to three levels back will be like we've never seen before.

#17 plays AA and #18 plays B-1...?

I'm POSITIVE that things will be even worse next year because of this way of thinking.[/quote]


If they are basing this off the high school model which is what they have said they are basing this off of that is how it should be.

Since when have you seen a AA varsity high school team also have a A varsity high school team. NEVER

Do not claim to base this off the high school model if you are going to allow associations to have both AA and A teams.

Minnesota hockey can also not claim they are doing smaller associations a favor by making an A level for small associations if you are going to allow the bigger associations to also have A teams. In all accounts your doing the bigger associations a favor.[/quote]

Go to the Mahtomedi A Bantam topic.[/quote]

I have been there and have actually posted there. You are not worth discussing this with anymore. You are set in your ways and are not willing to look at in other position. So you can have your opinion and I will have mine.

We will see what MNH does next year and how each district does the scheduling. We will also see what the associations that had both AA and A do next year if they allow it.

Good luck to you BO and stop living your dreams through your kid

[MrBoDangles]

It's the reason you're not seeing any of this movement into programs that offer B-1 as it's highest level. MNH's foundation is cracking.

I'm glad that you understood and are now backing off.

[helightsthelamp]

The rest of the A teams fared fairly well against the AA teams. I think only NCBD and SLP managed to get wins against AA teams but the rest of the teams weren't getting beat by double digits.

Which one is it Hawk? your quote indicates the only teams that struggled were those that didn't also have an AA team... and they were not getting beat by double digits... I just used NCBD as one example.. I can list more, but won't waste my time... look for yourself at D10 website before making statement that are not true...

Blowouts are a part of the game and yes you can have learning experiences from them... Repeated blowouts because you are forced to play teams which are flat out better then you is not good for development not to mention what it does to a players confidence...

Well Lights, maybe if you could read and understand complex sentence structures, you would have understood that I was saying the teams with a AA sibling struggled the most against AA teams, except for Centennial.

I know exactly what is on the D10 website. That is only data and it must be analyzed by those who see it. My statement is an opinion which can never be wrong.

You are correct, those with AA sibling did struggle the most and you can have an opinion, however you stated that the teams without the AA siblings were not getting beat by double digits which is factually inacurate. understand complex sentence structure??? I am not an english major (substitute for midget) I am a hockey player!! which is why I take what the sentence says, not some underlying meaning you are trying to imply...

[Bleed Maroon and Gold]

I understand one thing BODINGLE your irrational and nuts and not worth trying to have a civil discussion with. I hope you and your kid reach your dreams and not what dreams your kid has.

BTW i am not backing off just ignoring what you say because its not worth it because your irrational.

[MrBoDangles]

I understand one thing BODINGLE your irrational and nuts and not worth trying to have a civil discussion with. I hope you and your kid reach your dreams and not what dreams your kid has.

BTW i am not backing off just ignoring what you say because its not worth it because your irrational.

Seperating the competition level from AA all the way down to B-1 IS irrational in an association.

Time to grow up!

[helightsthelamp]

I understand one thing BODINGLE your irrational and nuts and not worth trying to have a civil discussion with. I hope you and your kid reach your dreams and not what dreams your kid has.

BTW i am not backing off just ignoring what you say because its not worth it because your irrational.

Seperating the competition level from AA all the way down to B-1 IS irrational in an association.

Time to grow up!

Not if B1 can play A and A can play AA....

[MrBoDangles]

I understand one thing BODINGLE your irrational and nuts and not worth trying to have a civil discussion with. I hope you and your kid reach your dreams and not what dreams your kid has.

BTW i am not backing off just ignoring what you say because its not worth it because your irrational.

Seperating the competition level from AA all the way down to B-1 IS irrational in an association.

Time to grow up!

Not if B1 can play A and A can play AA....

The lower title alone will get players moving.

Nearly 40% of Mahtomedi's A title contending team came in this year.... Maybe even 6 of the 14 if the Mora kid figured he was going to be stuck playing B-1. Obviously a reason for all this movement, right?

Advice(MGF)- Better start looking at co-ops of 2-3 associations to play AA to not lose players in big numbers.

[BluehawkHockey]

You are correct, those with AA sibling did struggle the most and you can have an opinion, however you stated that the teams without the AA siblings were not getting beat by double digits which is factually inacurate. understand complex sentence structure??? I am not an english major (substitute for midget) I am a hockey player!! which is why I take what the sentence says, not some underlying meaning you are trying to imply...

Well since you know so many facts, how often were AA teams beat by other AA teams by double digits? What about A teams beating other A teams by double digits. 1 of the 9 double digit wins at Peewee was an A over an A. 4 of the 9 at Peewee was the same assoc. AA over A. So 4 out of 64 games were double digit wins of AA teams over A. A whopping 6.3%.

At Bantams, 2 of the 9 double digit wins were AA over AA. 4 of the 9 were same assoc. AA over A. So 3 out of 56 games were double digit wins of AA teams over A. A whopping 5.4%.

You got me in a box there. Too bad you really missed my OPINION that AA vs A games weren't necessarily bad for the teams and that the AA/A split may have been a good idea.

[helightsthelamp]

You are correct, those with AA sibling did struggle the most and you can have an opinion, however you stated that the teams without the AA siblings were not getting beat by double digits which is factually inacurate. understand complex sentence structure??? I am not an english major (substitute for midget) I am a hockey player!! which is why I take what the sentence says, not some underlying meaning you are trying to imply...

Well since you know so many facts, how often were AA teams beat by other AA teams by double digits? What about A teams beating other A teams by double digits. 1 of the 9 double digit wins at Peewee was an A over an A. 4 of the 9 at Peewee was the same assoc. AA over A. So 4 out of 64 games were double digit wins of AA teams over A. A whopping 6.3%.

At Bantams, 2 of the 9 double digit wins were AA over AA. 4 of the 9 were same assoc. AA over A. So 3 out of 56 games were double digit wins of AA teams over A. A whopping 5.4%.

You got me in a box there. Too bad you really missed my OPINION that AA vs A games weren't necessarily bad for the teams and that the AA/A split may have been a good idea.

Stats can be viewed in many different ways... Double digit wins is only a very small fraction.. In how many of the 6,7,8,9 - 0 games did the winning team take the foot off the gas, that will not show in the stats... I can tell you I witnessed two games at bantams where it was clearly pass the puck X# of times before you shoot in the second half of the game... A 6-0 game is still very one sided to me and not competitive.

AA teams that got beat by double digits by other AA teams choose to play at that level, knowing they were heading into a gun fight with knife's. A teams FORCED to play AA teams were backed into a corner and FORCED into a gun fight having only knifes (or spoons in some instances).

It seems you are looking at it more from a perspective of PW's and as such may be part of our difference of opinion. I do not have a PW player, but did witness first hand A Bantam level.

At Bantams A vs A were very competitive games... Yes there were a few competitive games between AA and A but way more that were one sided... The stat I have handy is after 38 games AA record vs A 35-2-1 with AA outscoring A 260-45 or an AGD of 5.65

Allow A teams to play AA yes, as you are correct in some cases those can provide challenging games. Forcing AA/A split schedule does not make sense to me to pick up a couple of challenging games when you have many many more games that will be one sided... A teams that don't match up well (teams that also have AA) will soon be turned into B1 teams, which the A level playing against other A teams are a much better match up... Just my opinion -

[BadgerBob82]

So looking at the PW and Bantam teams that made it to State. The AA teams read just as past years A state tournaments.

The success of the "Pilot Program" shows strong at the A and B1 tournaments. Yes, there are teams from the mega associations. But the majority of the A and B1 teams at both Bantam and PW are not regulars at State.

Fix the quirks with league play. Fix the quirks building regions. But the program is obviously successful and will improve in the future.

[LowLight21]

Agreed. It looks like only two Tier 2 A teams (skaters 18-34) advanced to the State Tournament. Edina Peewee A and Edina Bantam A.

[helightsthelamp]

AA/A from a tournament perspective 81% success!!! 13 of the 16 teams at PW and Bantam have 4 or less teams at that level. Three teams are the outlier's and do not fit into the goal of having a state tournament for the smaller associations:

Edina Bantam A - 8 teams at Bantam level
Edina PW A - 10 teams at PW level
Minneapolis PW A - 7 teams at PW level (sorry 7 teams at the level is not a small association)

Get the large assocations out and 100% success.

Huge positive at Bantam A aside from Edina having 8 teams.... Mahtomedi 4 teams, Crow River 3 teams, Hutchinson, TRF, EGF, Detroit Lakes and Sartell 2 teams at Bantam Level!!! Exactly what AA/A split was intended to do for end of season tournament!!!

[BadgerBob82]

Your math is a skewed since you are only looking at the A level. When including the AA and B1 levels, it is much closer to 100% success. Under the old way, the A and B1 would be dominated by the same associations. So rework your math and provide the results.

Making associations have an AA or A, but not both is stupid and defeats the purpose. WHICH by the way was NOT to simply give small associations a tournament to play. The plan provides another playing level to provide a better season to all associations throughout the state. Agreed on not forcing AA vs A games. But fix that issue and it is 100% improvement and we are seeing the benefits in the 1st season that was not well thoughout at the beginning.