District 8 Penalizes Team and Coach

[SCBlueLiner]

This situation highlights a few problems:

-division of levels is unclear, what teams should declare A, which should declare b1,b2 etc. No guidance from Mn hockey.

-inconsistency of districts, d8, d6, d10 v non metro districts for example. Each one is different, so non district games are really a crap shoot

-forced declarations of levels too early, ie, why can't we wait until November, get a few scrimmages in and then declare the correct level

The fines are very excessive for both situations. Can someone with more knowledge tell us what is the big problem is, besides that it written in some rule book, with letting a b1 team play an A team, or at least why we have that rule. Is it an insurance issue?

Btw, I have seen many scrimmages like the squirt one described, including a few this year, not clear what the problem is there either.

they obviously knew what level they were, so to play in a different level is not acceptable. The guidence should come from the district, not MN hockey. Name another sport that you have some practice games then declare? baseball, soccer, basketball...you form your team and declare what level. Live with the decision and abide by the rules. You don't have to like it, but until it changes, it is what it is. It's all there in black and white for all to read.

Missouri hockey has a declaration season at the start of the year so teams can play a few games and get a feel what level the team should play at. It's done elsewhere in this country successfully. So, there's that.

[Defensive Zone]

On the B1 tournament. I would ask if Lakeville misrepresented their team as being an A team? If not, did the tournament willingly accept a B team for an A tournament? Can District Director approve this like they can for specific games?

Would seem to me if the tournament host association admitted a B team, they should be fined and not allowed to host any tournaments for a period of time.

Good questions and points. Since I started this thread, I felt I should dig a little deeper to find out some more information on this subject. So I met a few of my beer (root beer) drinking buddies from Lakeville. This Lakeville Bantam B1 team in question called the tournament director from New Ulm and asked to enter their BA tournament interpreting that the playing rule within Bantams is that you can play up, but you cannot play down. The Lakeville team identified themselves as a B1 level team. The director of the BA tournament said, no problem, and accepted Lakeville's money. So with that said, you would think there would be a few more teams/coaches/associations in some type of violation(s) of the MN Hockey rule(s)? Lakeville was the only B1 team in the tournament, the rest were BA's. What I could find out after a few more pops, there are no other teams, coaches, associations being penalized at this time. My understanding is, each district director polices their own. Crazy if this is true. Any thoughts?

[silentbutdeadly3139]

This situation highlights a few problems:

-division of levels is unclear, what teams should declare A, which should declare b1,b2 etc. No guidance from Mn hockey.

So you want MN hockey to tell you what level to declare your teams ? Associations should know there talent level better than MN hockey. Perhaps these associations are declaring at lower level to win end of yr tournaments but find they need/want to play tougher teams and end up in these situations ... trying to have there cake and eat it too. ( sorry could't resist )

[elliott70]

On the B1 tournament. I would ask if Lakeville misrepresented their team as being an A team? If not, did the tournament willingly accept a B team for an A tournament? Can District Director approve this like they can for specific games?

Would seem to me if the tournament host association admitted a B team, they should be fined and not allowed to host any tournaments for a period of time.

Good questions and points. Since I started this thread, I felt I should dig a little deeper to find out some more information on this subject. So I met a few of my beer (root beer) drinking buddies from Lakeville. This Lakeville Bantam B1 team in question called the tournament director from New Ulm and asked to enter their BA tournament interpreting that the playing rule within Bantams is that you can play up, but you cannot play down. The Lakeville team identified themselves as a B1 level team. The director of the BA tournament said, no problem, and accepted Lakeville's money. So with that said, you would think there would be a few more teams/coaches/associations in some type of violation(s) of the MN Hockey rule(s)? Lakeville was the only B1 team in the tournament, the rest were BA's. What I could find out after a few more pops, there are no other teams, coaches, associations being penalized at this time. My understanding is, each district director polices their own. Crazy if this is true. Any thoughts?

How do you have a game where someone plays up and no one is playing down?

[elliott70]

On the B1 tournament. I would ask if Lakeville misrepresented their team as being an A team? If not, did the tournament willingly accept a B team for an A tournament? Can District Director approve this like they can for specific games?

Would seem to me if the tournament host association admitted a B team, they should be fined and not allowed to host any tournaments for a period of time.

Good questions and points. Since I started this thread, I felt I should dig a little deeper to find out some more information on this subject. So I met a few of my beer (root beer) drinking buddies from Lakeville. This Lakeville Bantam B1 team in question called the tournament director from New Ulm and asked to enter their BA tournament interpreting that the playing rule within Bantams is that you can play up, but you cannot play down. The Lakeville team identified themselves as a B1 level team. The director of the BA tournament said, no problem, and accepted Lakeville's money. So with that said, you would think there would be a few more teams/coaches/associations in some type of violation(s) of the MN Hockey rule(s)? Lakeville was the only B1 team in the tournament, the rest were BA's. What I could find out after a few more pops, there are no other teams, coaches, associations being penalized at this time. My understanding is, each district director polices their own. Crazy if this is true. Any thoughts?

No, invitational tournament violations are policied by the tournament committee.

Each director would be responsible for educating the local associations on not playing up or down without his permission and that it is not allowed at anytime in an invitational tournament setting.

[elliott70]

FYI

In district 16, your first team is an A level team (AA or A is up to you).
The next team is B level. If more than one B level than equal or strong/weak - local association choice.

If your association does not feel they can compete in D16 A league than they request to be a B team. Hallock, Bagley, Red Lake Falls and sometimes LOW will make this request.

There have been times where they have played a level at the beginning of the year but before Christmas they find that it is not a good fit and we re-class them to B level.

[BadgerBob82]

Elliot: So as this situation is described by D-Zone.

Isn't New Ulm just as guilty as Lakeville? D-Zone states Lakeville called New Ulm, said they were a B1 team, asked if they could fill a spot, New Ulm knowingly accepted their registration and allowed them to play.

I would think New Ulm is possibly MORE guilty as the whole thing would have been stopped if New Ulm said, NO YOU CAN'T PLAY!

In other words, it takes 2. New Ulm's participation allowed Lakeville to break the rules.

If a $1,500 fine for Lakeville, then New Ulm should not be allowed a Bantam A tournament next season. Or, maybe no tournaments at all next season?

[elliott70]

Elliot: So as this situation is described by D-Zone.

Isn't New Ulm just as guilty as Lakeville? D-Zone states Lakeville called New Ulm, said they were a B1 team, asked if they could fill a spot, New Ulm knowingly accepted their registration and allowed them to play.

I would think New Ulm is possibly MORE guilty as the whole thing would have been stopped if New Ulm said, NO YOU CAN'T PLAY!

In other words, it takes 2. New Ulm's participation allowed Lakeville to break the rules.

If a $1,500 fine for Lakeville, then New Ulm should not be allowed a Bantam A tournament next season. Or, maybe no tournaments at all next season?

Both parties are guilty and will be sanctioned/fined.
In addition, those that played the team not at their level have been sanctioned/fined in the past.

Happens more frequently than it should.
D16 people call me at least 6 times a year requesting a waiver to participate or bring another level into their tourney.
I cannot grant the waiver as it is not under my power.

[gus004]

As far as having time to let teams change declarations, I know in D10 that all the games are scheduled in October for the entire season. League games start the second week of November. I am not sure how many games total that is, but having been involved in the process for 5 years, it takes three meetings and roughly 20-25 hours of time. To then let teams change classification, all those games would have to be re-scheduled, which when dealing with 8-15 associations creates another session for the ice schedulers to have to come together. Don't get me wrong, I see the validity in the statement of seeing where you team falls and making the correct choice for the kids in the long run. I have not been involved with a team changing declaration, but have had many teams disband at a level and had to cancel the games that were scheduled and rework team schedules to balance things out.

[helightsthelamp]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

[greybeard58]

"A" and "AA" are both classified and registered as "A" Bantam or "A" Peewee and therefore are with in the rules of playing within their classification or registered level. Some Districts do not let B1 and B2 play in league but outside of the Districts are allowed to enter "B" Invitational tournaments. Mn Hockey has these levels: "A",'B","C","House" and "Recreation". This is found on page 27 Mn Hockey Handbook and the next section covers inter-level play.

[elliott70]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

That was my question many years ago, answer at that time was insurance coverage.
I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now.

[SCBlueLiner]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

That was my question many years ago, answer at that time was insurance coverage.
I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now.

According to USAH there is no such thing as AA, A, B1, B2, C, etc. There is only Tier I and Tier II. That's it. Since the alphabet levels don't exist and USAH is the insurance carrier I agree that the insurance coverage reason is B.S.

[CHI-TOWN HOCKEYDAD]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

Lights,

My thought is there are likely 2 reasons for the rule:

1) To appease those that would complain about Little Johnny's A team ego being damaged by losing to a B1 team.

2) Probably more legitimately, to avoid having teams declare at a lower level to win a year end tournament while playing at a higher level during the season. If it were allowed it has the potential to be used liberally by some and abused. It is easier to just say no.

[Defensive Zone]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

That was my question many years ago, answer at that time was insurance coverage.
I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now.

I have a question...Most of the youth associations (hockey) in MN, if not all, are listed as a non-profit organization and are bounded by MN Bylaws. My question is how can a non-profit hockey association (parents) be find $1500? Doesn’t the statue protect parents from these liabilities, especially if there wasn’t any intent of fraud? In there any lawyers out there to elaborate?

[elliott70]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

That was my question many years ago, answer at that time was insurance coverage.
I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now.

I have a question...Most of the youth associations (hockey) in MN, if not all, are listed as a non-profit organization and are bounded by MN Bylaws. My question is how can a non-profit hockey association (parents) be find $1500? Doesn’t the statue protect parents from these liabilities, especially if there wasn’t any intent of fraud? In there any lawyers out there to elaborate?

No, non-profit MN law, MN Attorney Generals office, IRS etc. does not protect from this or other such fines.
Some of the largest penalties from the IRS I have seen assessed are against non-profits.

Each association signs an affiliation agreement to belong to and come under the power of Minnesota Hockey.

Doesn't make these fines right, but it does subject them to them.
I know some associations have appealed these to USAH to no avail.

[jpiehl]

Over the weekend, I was talking to a few parents from Lakeville. They proceeded to tell me that one of their Bantam B1 teams are being penalized $1500, plus the head coach is receiving a 3 game suspension for playing in a Bantam A tournament (which they took 3rd place in) during the season.

Isn't "A" the New B1? I do not believe Lake ville fielded "A" teams only AA. So in reality their B1 teams are equal to others "A". Hockey adults making those silly rules again..

OK, I will go against the grain on this. If they wanted to play A, they had that option at the beginning of the season and chose not to. I'm sure to get more wins during the season and compete for a district title. So if that is the declaration, live with it, there are many Bantam B tournaments available, it isn't like all they could find was an A tournament. I would have more sympathy in a situation like this for a small association that may have had some players surprise them, but in an association the size of Lakeville (not sure if it is North or South), they should know better. And if in reality their B1 teams are equal to others A teams, play them there.

[SnowedIn]

Thanks for the clarity Elliott, it appears this rule is very clear.

The $1,000,000 question I have is why this is a rule? I am trying to understand what the downside is to having a A team play a B1 team, especially when an A can play a AA (which I understand is new this year) and B1 can play B2 (both classified as B).

That was my question many years ago, answer at that time was insurance coverage.
I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now.

According to USAH there is no such thing as AA, A, B1, B2, C, etc. There is only Tier I and Tier II. That's it. Since the alphabet levels don't exist and USAH is the insurance carrier I agree that the insurance coverage reason is B.S.

_________________

Good point. Every state has their own categories: AA,A,B,house or AA,A or Gold,Silver,Bronze .... and none of them mean anything to USA Hockey.

Part of being in what is the biggest Tier II program in the country is that there will be a certain amount of red tape and rules. I don't like this rule but whatever the reasons for the rule, it is a rule so: 1) Choose your level very carefully, and 2) Choose tournaments that have teams comparable to your team within your category. Unless this is the best B team around there should be a tournament with top B teams, no?
So this goes right back into the lap of the coach and manager.

[Defensive Zone]

That was my question many years ago, answer at that time was insurance coverage.
I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now.

I have a question...Most of the youth associations (hockey) in MN, if not all, are listed as a non-profit organization and are bounded by MN Bylaws. My question is how can a non-profit hockey association (parents) be find $1500? Doesn’t the statue protect parents from these liabilities, especially if there wasn’t any intent of fraud? In there any lawyers out there to elaborate?

No, non-profit MN law, MN Attorney Generals office, IRS etc. does not protect from this or other such fines.
Some of the largest penalties from the IRS I have seen assessed are against non-profits.

Each association signs an affiliation agreement to belong to and come under the power of Minnesota Hockey.

Doesn't make these fines right, but it does subject them to them.
I know some associations have appealed these to USAH to no avail.

Talking to my pop buddies last night from Lakeville, the final penalties came down a few weeks ago. Sauk Center who played Lakeville received nothing from their District Rep. Waconia also played Lakeville; their team (parents) had to volunteer to work 50 hours at their District Playoffs. New Ulm who hosted the tournament was fined $550 fine and was band from hosting next year’s Bantam A tournament which will probably cost them more in lost revenue. As for Lakeville, they appealed their fine of $1500. It was dropped to $750. Isn’t youth hockey fun?