Require 2 referees

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BadgerBob82
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Require 2 referees

Post by BadgerBob82 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:08 pm

I watched several Bantam A and B regional games this week-end.

Will this be the year MN Hockey requires 2 referees for every game? Add 1 linesman for upper levels as used at high school. But from what I saw, with VERY qualified experienced referees, 1 referee is outdated and needs to be eliminated.

And from the amount of screaming from coaches, fans, players about missed calls, I think there has to be alot in agreement?

elliott70
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Re: Require 2 referees

Post by elliott70 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:32 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:I watched several Bantam A and B regional games this week-end.

Will this be the year MN Hockey requires 2 referees for every game? Add 1 linesman for upper levels as used at high school. But from what I saw, with VERY qualified experienced referees, 1 referee is outdated and needs to be eliminated.

And from the amount of screaming from coaches, fans, players about missed calls, I think there has to be alot in agreement?
Its a USAH rule.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:36 pm

I have asked the leaders of MN Hockey refs, on several occasions, which system they believe provides the best reffed game, 3 man (1 ref, 2 lines) is always the answer.

I have asked numerous bantam A coaches, 90% say it does not matter as long as it is consistent.

It is easier for one to be consistent in his calls than two.

Personally, I prefer 2 refs, one line.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:05 pm

I understand USAH stands behind their rule and the MN referee directors tow the company line.

But ask the actual referees what they think. A few have told me what they like about being only ref, but all say high school system is much better.

Propose the change Elliot. It will pass in the name of player safety. Call it a "pilot program". Keep stats and will show better than a stop sign for player safety.

Marty McSorely
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Post by Marty McSorely » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:09 pm

All District and Regional Tourney's should be a linesman and two Ref's. For pete's sake we play two ref's all year. You get to the meat of the season and we play one ref who try's to watch 10 kids spread out of over a 180x90 + space....

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:42 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:I understand USAH stands behind their rule and the MN referee directors tow the company line.

But ask the actual referees what they think. A few have told me what they like about being only ref, but all say high school system is much better.

Propose the change Elliot. It will pass in the name of player safety. Call it a "pilot program". Keep stats and will show better than a stop sign for player safety.
Okay, I will make a motion.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:43 pm

Marty McSorely wrote:All District and Regional Tourney's should be a linesman and two Ref's. For pete's sake we play two ref's all year. You get to the meat of the season and we play one ref who try's to watch 10 kids spread out of over a 180x90 + space....
You use 2 ref system for bantam A during the season?

QuackerTracker
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Post by QuackerTracker » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:10 pm

For the 6th time in a row the option for USA hockey to add the option to use the 2-1 system was put infront of the rules committee for use. It was again there year recommended for defeat. The rules committee is made up of administrators that are not officials. Most if not all are coaches of high level midget and junior teams. But once again Badger you know better than everyone else in the hockey community. We've been over this before.

USHL, NAHL and all tier 3 JR leagues still use the 1-2 for most of their regular season games.

If a major penalty is missed by 3 officials in the 1-2 system it's going to be missed in the 2 officals sytemt and the 2-1.

Marty McSorely
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Post by Marty McSorely » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:12 pm

No, Pee Wee

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:26 pm

Quacker: What do all those leagues have in common with Bantam hockey?

QuackerTracker
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Post by QuackerTracker » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:40 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Quacker: What do all those leagues have in common with Bantam hockey?
They use the same officiating system.

Marty McSorely
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Post by Marty McSorely » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:40 pm

In today's game it's crazy to have two linesman at most levels! Backwards thinking at it's finest.

inthestands
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Post by inthestands » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:16 pm

It could have something to do with the number of experienced referee's capable of calling a Bantam A game.

Over 50% of new officials quit after their first season. There are another so many that quit after 2 and three. If this percentage doesn't improve, the issues are going to increase rather than get better.

I don't have the solution, but there is quite a bit of complaining at the High School level using the 2/1 system.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:25 pm

Quacker: And they all use the same system because???

NE14HKY
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Post by NE14HKY » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:09 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Marty McSorely wrote:All District and Regional Tourney's should be a linesman and two Ref's. For pete's sake we play two ref's all year. You get to the meat of the season and we play one ref who try's to watch 10 kids spread out of over a 180x90 + space....
You use 2 ref system for bantam A during the season?

Yep, D8.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:29 am

Marty McSorely wrote:No, Pee Wee
Thanks

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:29 am

NE14HKY wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
Marty McSorely wrote:All District and Regional Tourney's should be a linesman and two Ref's. For pete's sake we play two ref's all year. You get to the meat of the season and we play one ref who try's to watch 10 kids spread out of over a 180x90 + space....
You use 2 ref system for bantam A during the season?

Yep, D8.
Thanks

dangle_snipe
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Post by dangle_snipe » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:35 am

Easy money if ya do lines .... Boring but easy

QuackerTracker
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Post by QuackerTracker » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:31 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Quacker: And they all use the same system because???
Because the system provides clear roles for each offical on the ice. Duties are rarly crossed and there is consitant coverage of the ice.

Badger, you have said before that you have wrote letters to the admin to try to get thigs changed. I'm guessing that's where you stopped. Did you run for the board position that make the decisions? Or just come on a forum and complain. My guess is your team lost this weekend and this is your pitty party.

The problem is, when a game gets rough the officals are blamed for loosing control even if the game is called tight. Players are the ones who commit the infractions and the officals are responsible for reacting to it. We can't stop them from punching someone. If the players come out and play then everyone says "thanks for letting them play" even though we didn't "let" them do anything. It really does not matter if you have 10 officals on the ice if they can't handle the level they can't do it. Bantam A hockey is not a special level of hockey. It's youth athletics. I wonder if the people that scream at officials are the same people that scream a 15 year old kid at McDonald's. Everyone needs to relax. Take a deep breath. It's a kids game. No one is going to loose a schollarship because of the officiating.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:33 am

Quack: No pitty party as no kids playing youth. We had Bantam A and B regions in town. So I watched a bunch of the games. (Only used 1 ref system because were forced to)

I watched more bad calls made due to poor positioning caused by the 1 ref system. Trying to call a goal from the red line after a blocked shot at the other end is pretty hard for any ref. Covering 200 feet when the puck has a 100 foot head start? And you support that system? What, the guy calling the blue line could help him make the call? Good system!

1 Ref provides consistentcy throughout the game? And it's too bad they are consistently bad calls due to poor positioning.

I don't really care if USA Hockey wants to stay in the 1970's and use a 1 ref system. I am not going on any Board with that as my only cause. You just keep banging the company drum. I'm sure your brown nose gets you alot of games with your ref coordinator!

QuackerTracker
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Post by QuackerTracker » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:50 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Trying to call a goal from the red line after a blocked shot at the other end is pretty hard for any ref. Covering 200 feet when the puck has a 100 foot head start?
The back linesman is responsible for assisting the ref in this situation and cover down deep till he can get there. Oh and those guys down there behind the glass with the red lights. I think they were there for a reason too. You don't understand how the system works yet you try and trash it.

Do you watch a lot of HS hockey? It should make you sick the way the game is called. Did you see the no call check from behind in the Duluth game the other night? The 2-1 system that you are fighting for. It was not call and clearly missed but it must be a better system cause more guys can call penalties (I hope the link works to the video):
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=351164321656518

Or maybe this artical is timly enough for you:

http://m.espn.go.com/nhl/story?storyId= ... =1cntt&wjb

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:52 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Quack: No pitty party as no kids playing youth. We had Bantam A and B regions in town. So I watched a bunch of the games. (Only used 1 ref system because were forced to)

I watched more bad calls made due to poor positioning caused by the 1 ref system. Trying to call a goal from the red line after a blocked shot at the other end is pretty hard for any ref. Covering 200 feet when the puck has a 100 foot head start? And you support that system? What, the guy calling the blue line could help him make the call? Good system!

1 Ref provides consistentcy throughout the game? And it's too bad they are consistently bad calls due to poor positioning.

I don't really care if USA Hockey wants to stay in the 1970's and use a 1 ref system. I am not going on any Board with that as my only cause. You just keep banging the company drum. I'm sure your brown nose gets you alot of games with your ref coordinator!
In your scenario the up ice linesman is to make the onside/offiside call as the puck enters the attacking zone. Since the referee is caught behind the play it is the linesman's job to follow the play into the zone (in the event of a potential scoring opportunity) and if a goal is scored the linesman is to indicate the goal by pointing at the net signifying a goal was scored. The referee seeing this then blows the whistle to stop play and confers with the linesman on the scoring play and what the linesman saw.

Refereeing 101.

There is nothing wrong with the 3-man system, it sounds like your officials require more training.

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:00 am

Quack, you beat me to it as I typed.

The reason the one referee system is preferred by many is because there is more consistency to how the game is called. With two referees there are two different people making judgment calls and the game is called inconsistantly.

Oh, and my favorite, the penalty that is called right in front of the official inside the zone, who did not make the call yet had the best look at it, but the official standing outside the blueline, completely out of position, raises his arm and blows the play dead. Seriously, that is not his call to make. You want to make a coach (who understands how officiating is supposed to work) flip a lid? That's one way to do it.

greybeard58
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Post by greybeard58 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:04 am

If you add goal judges when the 1-2 system which happens in most region and State tournament goals are rarely missed. A well trained crew that is used to each other makes the 1-2 system work better than the 2-1 where in that system one will call and the other will call very little. Remember at the High school level the coaches can black ball referees from their games and usually they like the referees that call very little that was the case years ago and little has changed.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:20 pm

You guys have made very compelling arguments.

Long live the 1-2 system!

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