Minnesota Blades U16 vs Shattuck

[frederick61]

Just posted the game story between the Minnesota Blades and Shattuck. The Blades have a good U16 team this fall and have put together a good schedule of games (22) against quality competition that competes at the USA Midget U16 Tier I level. The story can be read at:

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/shattuck- ... he-blades/

After posting the story, I wondered. If Team Wisconsin puts together a fall season playing similiar competition the Blades play, disbands the team so the players can return to their high schools, and then takes that team into the USA U16 National Tourney in early April; why can't a team like the Blades do the same?

It would give Shattuck's teams some competition to beat to go to the national tourney.

By the way, I know Team Wisconsin as hosts of the tourney, can enter the team. The Badgers will shut down at the end of October ranked high in Tier I USA teams (currently #5) and will contend for the title in April.

[old goalie85]

O.G. understands Fred . [pad walking]

[barry_mcconnell]

The Blades may have found a wedge in Minnesota’s busy year round hockey, a wedge that marries Minnesota High School hockey to USA Midget Tier I hockey.

A wedge that marries? Scratching head.

[2112]

Do the Blades U16 only have 98 birth years on it and that`s why they are considered Midget Minor? I thought U16 teams were considered Midget Major, because they have 97 and 98 birth years.

[JSR]

Just posted the game story between the Minnesota Blades and Shattuck. The Blades have a good U16 team this fall and have put together a good schedule of games (22) against quality competition that competes at the USA Midget U16 Tier I level. The story can be read at:

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/shattuck- ... he-blades/

After posting the story, I wondered. If Team Wisconsin puts together a fall season playing similiar competition the Blades play, disbands the team so the players can return to their high schools, and then takes that team into the USA U16 National Tourney in early April; why can't a team like the Blades do the same?

It would give Shattuck's teams some competition to beat to go to the national tourney.

By the way, I know Team Wisconsin as hosts of the tourney, can enter the team. The Badgers will shut down at the end of October ranked high in Tier I USA teams (currently #5) and will contend for the title in April.

They could do that.... they just need MN Hockey to sanction it so to speak.... But that said, I have been asking why the Elite League and the Elite D League can't do this as well.... just sayin....... FYI, thee hitch has always been that the MN High School state hockey tournament tends to take place over the same weekend as the "playdowns" (or playins, ie State and District tourneys) for the Tier 1 tourney. And rosters for your team for that tourney MUST be turned in by December 31st... so you would need to put together your teams in such a way that you could play your play in games without certain players who may still be participating in the state high school tournament.... which brings another potential prblem, that being is a players season over when his team is out of the tournament making him eligible for post season play with said Blades team or is the High School season still live until the state championship game is played, not sure how yuor by law are written up there... these are all hurdles you could overcome but they are questions that need addressing before plowing ahead so to speak... Been asking these same questions for a couple of years now myself fred....

[frederick61]

The Blades may have found a wedge in Minnesota’s busy year round hockey, a wedge that marries Minnesota High School hockey to USA Midget Tier I hockey.

A wedge that marries? Scratching head.

A wedge can be used to bring stability to two different such as a wedge in a hinge can make the door closed tight to the frame. The key here is that USA Hockey teams start their seasons September 1 and high school hockey does not roll until after Nov 1. Why can't AAA teams be formed like the Blades and play the two wedge months to establish their credentials against teams in the High Performance Hockey League, disband and play high school Nov to early March, reform in March to play a few more games and then play for the USA U16 (or U18 or U14) national title.

There is no restriction on the players or coaches to stop them. What is needed is a March tourney to that allows those teams interested to enter including Shattuck.

[frederick61]

Just posted the game story between the Minnesota Blades and Shattuck. The Blades have a good U16 team this fall and have put together a good schedule of games (22) against quality competition that competes at the USA Midget U16 Tier I level. The story can be read at:

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/shattuck- ... he-blades/

After posting the story, I wondered. If Team Wisconsin puts together a fall season playing similiar competition the Blades play, disbands the team so the players can return to their high schools, and then takes that team into the USA U16 National Tourney in early April; why can't a team like the Blades do the same?

It would give Shattuck's teams some competition to beat to go to the national tourney.

By the way, I know Team Wisconsin as hosts of the tourney, can enter the team. The Badgers will shut down at the end of October ranked high in Tier I USA teams (currently #5) and will contend for the title in April.

They could do that.... they just need MN Hockey to sanction it so to speak.... But that said, I have been asking why the Elite League and the Elite D League can't do this as well.... just sayin....... FYI, thee hitch has always been that the MN High School state hockey tournament tends to take place over the same weekend as the "playdowns" (or playins, ie State and District tourneys) for the Tier 1 tourney. And rosters for your team for that tourney MUST be turned in by December 31st... so you would need to put together your teams in such a way that you could play your play in games without certain players who may still be participating in the state high school tournament.... which brings another potential prblem, that being is a players season over when his team is out of the tournament making him eligible for post season play with said Blades team or is the High School season still live until the state championship game is played, not sure how yuor by law are written up there... these are all hurdles you could overcome but they are questions that need addressing before plowing ahead so to speak... Been asking these same questions for a couple of years now myself fred....

The MN High School league and Minnesota Hockey do not sanction Shattuck teams so that they can play in the national tourneys. Shattuck gets the entry because there are no other Tier I teams. So if an organization qualifies as Tier I other then Shattuck and wants to play, USA Hockey has to allow it, not either of the other two organizataions can stop it.

[JSR]

Do the Blades U16 only have 98 birth years on it and that`s why they are considered Midget Minor? I thought U16 teams were considered Midget Major, because they have 97 and 98 birth years.

U16 teams are Midget Minors, U18 teams are Midget Majors.... Midget teams consist of two birth years actually at the Tier 1 level, this years U16's (aka midget minors) consist of 1997's and 1998s, and the U18s (aka Midget Majors) consists of 1996s and 1995s and may have some talented 1997's on it as well (though it does seem the U16 level is the most heavily recruited age level so most talented 1997's stay at U16 because of that)..... some clubs do field hybrid U15 teams which would consist only of 1998's.... hope that helps

[JSR]

Just posted the game story between the Minnesota Blades and Shattuck. The Blades have a good U16 team this fall and have put together a good schedule of games (22) against quality competition that competes at the USA Midget U16 Tier I level. The story can be read at:

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/shattuck- ... he-blades/

After posting the story, I wondered. If Team Wisconsin puts together a fall season playing similiar competition the Blades play, disbands the team so the players can return to their high schools, and then takes that team into the USA U16 National Tourney in early April; why can't a team like the Blades do the same?

It would give Shattuck's teams some competition to beat to go to the national tourney.

By the way, I know Team Wisconsin as hosts of the tourney, can enter the team. The Badgers will shut down at the end of October ranked high in Tier I USA teams (currently #5) and will contend for the title in April.

They could do that.... they just need MN Hockey to sanction it so to speak.... But that said, I have been asking why the Elite League and the Elite D League can't do this as well.... just sayin....... FYI, thee hitch has always been that the MN High School state hockey tournament tends to take place over the same weekend as the "playdowns" (or playins, ie State and District tourneys) for the Tier 1 tourney. And rosters for your team for that tourney MUST be turned in by December 31st... so you would need to put together your teams in such a way that you could play your play in games without certain players who may still be participating in the state high school tournament.... which brings another potential prblem, that being is a players season over when his team is out of the tournament making him eligible for post season play with said Blades team or is the High School season still live until the state championship game is played, not sure how yuor by law are written up there... these are all hurdles you could overcome but they are questions that need addressing before plowing ahead so to speak... Been asking these same questions for a couple of years now myself fred....

The MN High School league and Minnesota Hockey do not sanction Shattuck teams so that they can play in the national tourneys. Shattuck gets the entry because there are no other Tier I teams. So if an organization qualifies as Tier I other then Shattuck and wants to play, USA Hockey has to allow it, not either of the other two organizataions can stop it.

A Tier 1 AAA team can ONLY receive that designation for national tournament play from a USA Hockey organization. Normally the state affiliate of USA Hockey applies and sanctions that designation for a team. Schattuck cannot play in the National Tournament without being sanctioned by USA Hockey and/or one of it's affiliates (ie MN Hockey, I assume that is the USA Hockey affiliate designation up there, down here in WI we call our WAHA).... never the less that is the reason the Fire never were eligible for the national tournament, because WAHA would not sanction them as a Tier 1 AAA team, they operated as a "nondesignated/nonsanctioned" independent under the WAHA/USA Hockey umbrella but WAHA even closed the loop hole on that hence no more Fire at all, but they were never eligible for the national tourney despite playing a Tier 1 AAA schedule..... For national tournament purposes USA Hokey is cut up into districts. Minnesota is literally it's own district (as opposed to say Wisconsin which is part of the Central District which Includes WI, IL, IA, MO, NE & KS).... Schattuck gets the "auto-bid" to the national tournament because there is no one else in their "district" to play so they get through automatically as the only epresentative from that district, so MN acts as both a state and a district and they have to sanction Schattuck as Tier 1 AAA in order for them to be allowed to participate in the national tourney, hence they'd have to sanction another team for them to play in a MN District game to play in to the tourney, hence you are incorrect there is alot MN Hockey and USA Hockey can do about it.... Now maybe the word "sanction" is not quite correct but I think it is and the "rules" apply so to speak.... Hope that makes sense

[frederick61]

A simple question, has the WAHA sanctioned the Wisconsin teams that will play in the USA tourneys in April? If so, they have to be sanctioned as Tier I organizational hockey teams not association hockey teams to play in a Tier I tourney.

It appears to me that the Blades organization for example is more of an organizational Tier I team per the USA guidelines then Team Wisconsin. That leads to the second question.

If USA Hockey has approved Team Wisconsin as an organizational team, why do they deny a team like the Blades?

The third question is can WAHA approve an organizational team on its own as the "and/or" applies. If so and USA Hockey acquiesced then teams like the Blades who play a two month fall schedule and a one month March tune-up schedule should be able to apply to USA and be accepted.

Finally none of this takes anything away from Minnesota Hockey and the Minnesota State High School league's winter season since a Blades like organization would not be playing winter hockey.

It is a simple equation, Team Wisconsin sets the precedent, then teams like the Blades in Minnesota should be able to follow that precedent. Remember USA hockey split Organizational and Association Hockey, something I personally have disagreed with doing on this site for years because that split is carried into the winter season.

I believe that the Blades have found a way to allow Minnesota players to experience both high school and USA hockey during their playing careers without threading on either approach and it adds to USA Hockey since it helps ease the problem of competition.

Who would it hurt? No one. I think Shattuck would welcome the late season competition.

[JSR]

frederick, hopefully this will answer some if not all of your questions, right from WAHA guidelines regarding the eligibilty of national bound tournament teams and Tier 1 designations:

ARTICLE 6 - TIER I AND NATIONAL TOURNAMENT BOUND TEAMS –
RULES AND REGULATIONS
A. DEFINITIONS
1. TIER I: Tier I Associations and teams have no specific district. A Tier I
team registers 3 or more of the best players from districted teams, who have
the desire and ability to play at a higher level. Also, a Tier I team is a team
that enters and registers for USA Hockey District and National Tournament
play and pays the associated fees by October 1st of each season.
2. FULL SEASON ORGANIZATIONS: The season for full season Tier I
hockey shall commence on August 1st and end on the last day of the USA
Hockey National Tournament of each year unless otherwise unanimously
approved by the Tier I Committee.
3. BEFORE AND AFTER ORGANIZATIONS: The only Tier I Before and
After program sanctioned by the Wisconsin Amateur Hockey Association shall be TEAM WISCONSIN.
a. Before and After team’s season shall commence on September 1st
of each year and cease upon the beginning of the Wisconsin
Interscholastic Athletic Association (WIAA) hockey season. It
shall than commence again at the completion of the WIAA hockey
season and end on the last day of the National Tournament of each
year unless otherwise unanimously approved by the Tier I
Committee.
b. All Before and After High School and Midget age (under USA
Hockey age classifications) players must attend a high school or an
approved DPI home study program and be a legal resident of the
State of Wisconsin.

B. GOVERNANCE
1. TIER I COMMITTEE: The WAHA President shall establish and appoint a
Tier I Committee comprised of a minimum of three (3) WAHA Directors.
The WAHA President shall appoint the Tier I Committee Chairperson.
2. AUTHORITY: The Tier I Committee shall have responsibility for all
matters pertaining to Tier I Member Associations, Tier I Organizations, Tier I Teams and Tier I Hockey, subject to the WAHA Board of Directors
review, direction, change and approval. This shall include, but is not
limited to, recommending the following:
a. granting or terminating of authority to organize and/or operate a Tier I
organization, club or association ("Tier I Organization") and/or field a
Tier I Team ("Tier I Team").
b. the total number of Tier I Teams permitted in any age division.
c. establishing guidelines which shall be used to carry out the purpose of
the Committee.
3. The WAHA Board of Directors has final approval of all recommendations
and decisions by the WAHA Tier I Committee.
4. The Tier I Committee shall meet on a quarterly basis, in person or by
conference call. All authorized Tier I organizations shall attend these
meetings.

C. CRITERIA
1. GENERAL INTENT: The general intent of Tier I Hockey in Wisconsin is
to provide an opportunity for the best Wisconsin youth players to develop
and compete at the highest level of hockey available in North America at
their ages by and through USA Hockey and WAHA. Tier I Hockey in
Wisconsin is limited to those youth players who have the desire and ability
to play at a higher level and wish to continue to develop as players by
playing Tier I Hockey. Tier I Hockey is not intended to place pressure on
any Youth Player to play Tier I Hockey...................


PLAYOFF RULES FOR ALL NATIONAL TOURNAMENT BOUND TEAMS.............

C. ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
1. Players and registered team members properly classified shall be eligible to
participate in State Playoffs. See: Article 3 –Classification
2. The team shall be certified by the WAHA Registrar or his/her designee
(form 2-C team roster registration certification) to have complied with all
eligibility requirements.
3. A player(s) and registered team members must be eligible to participate in
state playoffs in order to participate in district playoffs.
4. Number of Games for Eligibility
a. Each team must compete as a unit in at least twenty (20) games for
youth teams and at least fourteen (14) for girls’/women teams.
b. Each player must have played in at least ten (10) games during the
season.
c. For score sheets to count in meeting the 20/10 (14/10 girls’/women’s)
rule, that team’s player roster form (1-T) must be certified by the
appropriate registrar or his/her designee prior to that game being
played. Player changes to the official team roster for youth Tier I and
Tier II teams and girls’/women’s national championship bound teams
will not be accepted after December 31.
d. Ineligible Coach(es)/Players(s) – Any coach of a team that knowingly
plays an ineligible player(s) shall be suspended from coaching in any games that lead to a district or national championship in the current
season.

D. COACHING EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS1. All coaches must have the USA Hockey required minimum level of
coaching certification to participate in state playoffs. Refer to USA Hockey
Annual Guide for USA Hockey Coaching Education requirements.
2. Each coach must present documentation of the proper certification prior to
the first playoff game of his/her team.

E. CREDENTIAL REQUIREMENTS
1. The WAHA Registrar or his/her designee shall verify each team’s
eligibility.
2. Team credentials must be submitted to the WAHA VP of Tier I/II or his/her
designee at site of the state playoffs.
3. Each team is required to furnish the WAHA Registrar or his/her designee
the following items:
a. Copy of government-issued birth certificate, Verification of Birth or
copy of a passport identification page for each rostered player. Where
necessary, a verification and affirmation that a review of the player’s
birth certificate was completed by an Affiliate Registrar will be
adequate.
b. USA Hockey certified player roster form (1-T).
c. USA Hockey waiver and release completed for each registered
participant and team manager. (Not required for participants who
have registered online at usahockey.com).
d. Sanctioned game score sheets to verify compliance with 20/10 (14/10
girls’/women’s) minimum number of games for eligibility rule for each
team and rostered player.
e. A sanctioned score sheet must include all appropriate coaching
information and must be signed by the head coach who was on the
bench for game represented by the score sheet, and be signed by the
On-ice game official(s).
f. Any score sheets for games played after the credentials documents are
sent in and before the team’s first playoff game may presented at the
playoff site prior to the team’s first game.
g. USA Hockey consent to treat form for each rostered participant and
manager.
h. USA Hockey individual membership registration (IMR) form or
participant member card for each rostered participant and team
manager. These forms are not required when the team’s certified player
roster form (1-T) has been printed through the USA Hockey
registration software.
i. A coaching credential at the level mandated.
j. Completed code of conduct for each rostered participant and team
manager.
k. Non-U.S. citizens must meet proof of legal residency requirements and
transfer from home country ice hockey federation (if required) as stated
in Rules & Regulations III.C of the USA Hockey Annual Guide.
l. Other documents pertinent to team activities and player eligibility.
4. The above documents must be provided in a three ring binder appropriately
sized to hold everything. The documents must be stored in protective
sleeves and placed in the book in the following order and divided by tab
separators labeled accordingly:
a. Tab 1 – Credential Verification Sheet and Team’s USA Hockey
certified player roster form (1-T).
b. Tab 2 – All documents for team manager and each registered coach in
this order, Waiver of Liability Release, Code of Conduct, Consent to
Treat and a copy of the coach’s certification card. Documents may
be placed back-to-back in the protective sleeves.
c. Tab 3 – All score sheets to be used to verify the 20/10 (14/10
girl’s/women) games rule. Two (2) score sheet may be placed in one
protective sleeve, back-to-back.
d. A tab for each registered player with all documents in the same order as described for the coaches.


Believe it or not this is only about a 1/3 of the rules in the guide book regarding Tier 1 AAA teams but this info I provded should explain ost of it.... Note that if you read the rules in full Team Wisconsin was created and sanctioned by WAHA as sort of an "exception" to the original rules. They had to actually rewrite the bylaws so TW could compete as a Tier 1 national bound tournament team..... Hope that helps...
That said I again say that the Blades are not the only ones who could do this, I still contend this is something the Elite League could theoretically do as well....

[frederick61]

JSR,
I appreciate the information. Most of what you posted deals with the logistic of making certain players are of the right age, that the team has played enough games, and that their coaches are certified.

The first part however provides some answers based on the document as written by WAHA. But the WAHA may have stepped outside of USA hockey rules.

First of all, it acknowledges a before and after organization, but then goes on to state that in Wisconsin (it is a WAHA written document not USA Hockey), only Team Wisconsin can be a Tier 1 before and after team because the WAHA said so.

Note that the WAHA is an affiliate of the Central District and the Minnesota District has only Minnesota.

But here is the key statement that people in the know always make on Tier I vs Tier II (remember the definition changes from year to year:

Tier I is any youth or girls’ team that is properly registered with USA Hockey as a Tier I national championship-bound team (no mention of before and after organizations). It simply says if a team registers with USA hockey intending to play in the national championship, it will be accepted as a Tier I team. Registeration has to be by Oct 1 and rosters frozen by Dec 31st.

However if you are a youth or girls team that can be certified by an affiliate organization which has jurisdiction over the team, the affiliate can certify that team as Tier II. The Tier II certification will be based on criteria set up by the affilitate. The WAHA is considered an affiliate and would appear to have no jurisdiction over a Tier I team and have no ability to certify a team as Tier I under current USA Hockey rules despite what they write into their affiliate (WAHA) handbook.

[greybeard58]

Fred,
The affiliate of USA Hockey is the one that has the affiliate agreements with the associations that can declare a Tier I team. In the Central District (USA Hockey) Wisconsin WAHA has an Affiliate agreement with USA Hockey the central District does not. In Minnesota Minnesota Hockey has the Affiliate Agreement with USA Hockey not the Minnesota District. The blades have a limited affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey for a specific period. By the by-laws on Mn Hockey the blades can not get an in season affiliate agreement by themselves.

By the way Shattuck does not have an affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey but are part of the Faribault Youth Hockey Association.
As a small suggestion if you want to be a reporter or sports journalist you need to do more research before writing an article.

[5thgraders]

tier 1 dead till all the grey beards rest in peace.

[frederick61]

Fred,
The affiliate of USA Hockey is the one that has the affiliate agreements with the associations that can declare a Tier I team. In the Central District (USA Hockey) Wisconsin WAHA has an Affiliate agreement with USA Hockey the central District does not. In Minnesota Minnesota Hockey has the Affiliate Agreement with USA Hockey not the Minnesota District. The blades have a limited affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey for a specific period. By the by-laws on Mn Hockey the blades can not get an in season affiliate agreement by themselves.

By the way Shattuck does not have an affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey but are part of the Faribault Youth Hockey Association.
As a small suggestion if you want to be a reporter or sports journalist you need to do more research before writing an article.

Two points: So you are stating that that Shattuck gets the invite because they are part of the Faribault association implying if the Blades went to the Eagan or Richfield association they could obtain the same status. Does that mean that WAHA as an affiliate can write their own rules and declare for an area that they have the sole authority on certifying Tier I hockey. District 6 just lost a legal matter trying to do things like that.

Second you used the words "in season" and this discussion started with the idea of a before and after team being "certified" to play in the USA Hockey tourneys. My impression is that is a new term, but has it been used before.

Finally, note where this dialogue is happening, on the forum. I am after information because something is not right. Remember USA Hockey gets their charter from the Olympics, this conversation has little to do with the Olympics and is really about are the organizations and affiliates who's charter is to govern the sport by being fair.

I have no problem with Wisconsin kids playing in the USA Tier I tourneys. I would like to see them do well; but if the Wisconsin kids can do it, why not the Minnesota kids doing it the same way. That is fair; to hide behind some obscure protocol only makes people believe the opposite and that is not governance.

[stromboli]

Fred,
The affiliate of USA Hockey is the one that has the affiliate agreements with the associations that can declare a Tier I team. In the Central District (USA Hockey) Wisconsin WAHA has an Affiliate agreement with USA Hockey the central District does not. In Minnesota Minnesota Hockey has the Affiliate Agreement with USA Hockey not the Minnesota District. The blades have a limited affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey for a specific period. By the by-laws on Mn Hockey the blades can not get an in season affiliate agreement by themselves.

By the way Shattuck does not have an affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey but are part of the Faribault Youth Hockey Association.
As a small suggestion if you want to be a reporter or sports journalist you need to do more research before writing an article.

Two points: So you are stating that that Shattuck gets the invite because they are part of the Faribault association implying if the Blades went to the Eagan or Richfield association they could obtain the same status. Does that mean that WAHA as an affiliate can write their own rules and declare for an area that they have the sole authority on certifying Tier I hockey. District 6 just lost a legal matter trying to do things like that.

Second you used the words "in season" and this discussion started with the idea of a before and after team being "certified" to play in the USA Hockey tourneys. My impression is that is a new term, but has it been used before.

Finally, note where this dialogue is happening, on the forum. I am after information because something is not right. Remember USA Hockey gets their charter from the Olympics, this conversation has little to do with the Olympics and is really about are the organizations and affiliates who's charter is to govern the sport by being fair.

I have no problem with Wisconsin kids playing in the USA Tier I tourneys. I would like to see them do well; but if the Wisconsin kids can do it, why not the Minnesota kids doing it the same way. That is fair; to hide behind some obscure protocol only makes people believe the opposite and that is not governance.

Fred,

Go to USAH and look for their annual guidebook. It lays everything out, though you may need to hire legal counsel to decipher it.

To greybeard's point, here's a section from the guide for you.

Notification of Intent to Enter Team(s)
(1) Affiliate associations shall signify their intentions of entering a team(s)
in the district at least sixty (60) days prior to the tournament.
(2) A district shall signify their intention of entering a team or teams in the national championship, in writing, to USA Hockey with a copy to the
Youth Council chair by October 15 of the current season. Affiliates
shall signify their intention of entering a team(s) in the High School
Varsity and/or Prep School national tournament by November 15 of the
current season.
(3) Once declared, the district/affiliate must compete in the national
championships or be subject to a one-year suspension from future
championship eligibility by the USA Hockey Board of Directors.
The Youth Council shall:
(a) Notify the affected parties of the council’s suspension
recommendation at least thirty (30) days prior to the USA HockeyAnnual Congress.
Give the affected parties an opportunity, in person or writing, to
explain the circumstances which caused the non-appearance.
(c) Include its decision in the council’s report to the Board of Directors
at its Annual Meeting.
(d) Participation in USA Hockey district and national championship
play shall be at the discretion of USA Hockey affiliate associations,
subject to rules with regard to notice, etc., as set forth herein. No
affiliate shall be forced to participate, nor shall any of its
constituent organizations have a vested right to participation,
simply because USA Hockey does provide a national championship
for which they may be eligible.
(4) No USA Hockey member team or association may participate in any
league that prohibits that team or association from entering and fully
participating in its state, district or national championship. All teams
participating in that league shall not be eligible to participate in any
state, district or national championship.

[JSR]

Fred,
The affiliate of USA Hockey is the one that has the affiliate agreements with the associations that can declare a Tier I team. In the Central District (USA Hockey) Wisconsin WAHA has an Affiliate agreement with USA Hockey the central District does not. In Minnesota Minnesota Hockey has the Affiliate Agreement with USA Hockey not the Minnesota District. The blades have a limited affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey for a specific period. By the by-laws on Mn Hockey the blades can not get an in season affiliate agreement by themselves.

By the way Shattuck does not have an affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey but are part of the Faribault Youth Hockey Association.
As a small suggestion if you want to be a reporter or sports journalist you need to do more research before writing an article.

Two points: So you are stating that that Shattuck gets the invite because they are part of the Faribault association implying if the Blades went to the Eagan or Richfield association they could obtain the same status. Does that mean that WAHA as an affiliate can write their own rules and declare for an area that they have the sole authority on certifying Tier I hockey. District 6 just lost a legal matter trying to do things like that.

Second you used the words "in season" and this discussion started with the idea of a before and after team being "certified" to play in the USA Hockey tourneys. My impression is that is a new term, but has it been used before.

Finally, note where this dialogue is happening, on the forum. I am after information because something is not right. Remember USA Hockey gets their charter from the Olympics, this conversation has little to do with the Olympics and is really about are the organizations and affiliates who's charter is to govern the sport by being fair.

I have no problem with Wisconsin kids playing in the USA Tier I tourneys. I would like to see them do well; but if the Wisconsin kids can do it, why not the Minnesota kids doing it the same way. That is fair; to hide behind some obscure protocol only makes people believe the opposite and that is not governance.

Fred,

Go to USAH and look for their annual guidebook. It lays everything out, though you may need to hire legal counsel to decipher it.

To greybeard's point, here's a section from the guide for you.

Notification of Intent to Enter Team(s)
(1) Affiliate associations shall signify their intentions of entering a team(s)
in the district at least sixty (60) days prior to the tournament.
(2) A district shall signify their intention of entering a team or teams in the national championship, in writing, to USA Hockey with a copy to the
Youth Council chair by October 15 of the current season. Affiliates
shall signify their intention of entering a team(s) in the High School
Varsity and/or Prep School national tournament by November 15 of the
current season.
(3) Once declared, the district/affiliate must compete in the national
championships or be subject to a one-year suspension from future
championship eligibility by the USA Hockey Board of Directors.
The Youth Council shall:
(a) Notify the affected parties of the council’s suspension
recommendation at least thirty (30) days prior to the USA HockeyAnnual Congress.
Give the affected parties an opportunity, in person or writing, to
explain the circumstances which caused the non-appearance.
(c) Include its decision in the council’s report to the Board of Directors
at its Annual Meeting.
(d) Participation in USA Hockey district and national championship
play shall be at the discretion of USA Hockey affiliate associations,
subject to rules with regard to notice, etc., as set forth herein. No
affiliate shall be forced to participate, nor shall any of its
constituent organizations have a vested right to participation,
simply because USA Hockey does provide a national championship
for which they may be eligible.
(4) No USA Hockey member team or association may participate in any
league that prohibits that team or association from entering and fully
participating in its state, district or national championship. All teams
participating in that league shall not be eligible to participate in any
state, district or national championship.

Thanks stromboli..... so to sum this up fred, WAHA is well within USA Hockey rules and no other teams in MN can play for the national Tier 1 tourney unless MN Hockey sanctions it, jsut like no teams in WI can participate in the tourney (state, distirct or national) unless WAHA sanctions it.....

[frederick61]

I fully understand that each of those who are defending point to some set of rules to support what is going on in trying to answer the questions I posed.

The first question is did WAHA sanction Team Wisconsin as Tier I. The answer is yes. They sanctioned Team Wisconsin as Tier I under a rule called “before and after” and then wrote a rule not allowing any other before and after programs to be sanctioned Tier I

WAHA in do so broke the trust of the people they were governing.

The second question was "If USA Hockey went along with the WAHA sanction, why can’t other teams from other districts do the same?" The answer cam back "Because (you pick the USA rule out of those mentioned in this thread) says they can’t."

USA Hockey is equally breaking the trust of the people they were governing.

My analogy is:
“I live in my house. I have written a rule that I and only I can use the X box. All the other family members keep saying I can’t do that because it is not fair. But I wrote the rules.”

USA Hockey does not get “it”.

For starters they do not own the house; they at best the maintenance men. The real problem is the house they are suppose to maintain has been so poorly built that they scramble to patch things over. They can't regulate it. There are no means to uniformly apply the rules to assure competition.

The rules are so haphazardly put together over the years across the USA that old rules are entranced in various districts and won’t change. The result is a patchwork of team names, affiliates, districts, and associations that make no sense to the average person.

In the end, it is all about kids playing hockey and I wish each hockey official could find a way to set aside “officialdom” and make a simple decision, if the WAHA can create a before and after team, then others should be able to do it.

To deny that they can is simply not fair and defies logic.

[Froggy Richards]

I fully understand that each of those who are defending point to some set of rules to support what is going on in trying to answer the questions I posed.

The first question is did WAHA sanction Team Wisconsin as Tier I. The answer is yes. They sanctioned Team Wisconsin as Tier I under a rule called “before and after” and then wrote a rule not allowing any other before and after programs to be sanctioned Tier I

WAHA in do so broke the trust of the people they were governing.

The second question was "If USA Hockey went along with the WAHA sanction, why can’t other teams from other districts do the same?" The answer cam back "Because (you pick the USA rule out of those mentioned in this thread) says they can’t."

USA Hockey is equally breaking the trust of the people they were governing.

My analogy is:
“I live in my house. I have written a rule that I and only I can use the X box. All the other family members keep saying I can’t do that because it is not fair. But I wrote the rules.”

USA Hockey does not get “it”.

For starters they do not own the house; they at best the maintenance men. The real problem is the house they are suppose to maintain has been so poorly built that they scramble to patch things over. They can't regulate it. There are no means to uniformly apply the rules to assure competition.

The rules are so haphazardly put together over the years across the USA that old rules are entranced in various districts and won’t change. The result is a patchwork of team names, affiliates, districts, and associations that make no sense to the average person.

In the end, it is all about kids playing hockey and I wish each hockey official could find a way to set aside “officialdom” and make a simple decision, if the WAHA can create a before and after team, then others should be able to do it.

To deny that they can is simply not fair and defies logic.

Granted, I read through the above posts quickly, but I didn't see anywhere that others CAN'T do it. In fact, it looks like they can, they just have to be sanctioned by MN Hockey. If WAHA can do it then USA hockey couldn't tell another team they can't, it would be up to MN Hockey, right? The question is, "Has anyone tried and been denied by MN Hockey?" I haven't seen that anywhere. Does anyone even want to do this? It seems there would be some challenges. It sounds like you have to get 20 games in. In MN, who would you play? You have Shattuck and that's it. Would you have to travel to Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan just to get games? Is this better than just playing Elite League, High School season and then going and getting in 5-15 games in Juniors after the season?

[OnFrozenPond]

Fred,
The affiliate of USA Hockey is the one that has the affiliate agreements with the associations that can declare a Tier I team. In the Central District (USA Hockey) Wisconsin WAHA has an Affiliate agreement with USA Hockey the central District does not. In Minnesota Minnesota Hockey has the Affiliate Agreement with USA Hockey not the Minnesota District. The blades have a limited affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey for a specific period. By the by-laws on Mn Hockey the blades can not get an in season affiliate agreement by themselves.

By the way Shattuck does not have an affiliate agreement with Mn Hockey but are part of the Faribault Youth Hockey Association.
As a small suggestion if you want to be a reporter or sports journalist you need to do more research before writing an article.

Two points: So you are stating that that Shattuck gets the invite because they are part of the Faribault association implying if the Blades went to the Eagan or Richfield association they could obtain the same status. Does that mean that WAHA as an affiliate can write their own rules and declare for an area that they have the sole authority on certifying Tier I hockey. District 6 just lost a legal matter trying to do things like that.

Second you used the words "in season" and this discussion started with the idea of a before and after team being "certified" to play in the USA Hockey tourneys. My impression is that is a new term, but has it been used before.

Finally, note where this dialogue is happening, on the forum. I am after information because something is not right. Remember USA Hockey gets their charter from the Olympics, this conversation has little to do with the Olympics and is really about are the organizations and affiliates who's charter is to govern the sport by being fair.

I have no problem with Wisconsin kids playing in the USA Tier I tourneys. I would like to see them do well; but if the Wisconsin kids can do it, why not the Minnesota kids doing it the same way. That is fair; to hide behind some obscure protocol only makes people believe the opposite and that is not governance.

Fred, I would suggest that you interview people from within USA Hockey, MN Hockey, Shattuck, Faribault Youth Hockey Association, The Blades, Team Wisconsin, WAHA, etc. While there are plenty of knowledgeable people on this board, there are also a lot of people that spread inaccuracies and opinions masked as fact while hiding behind screen names. It can be a great place to find which direction the wind is blowing for popular opinion, but probably not the best place to gather facts for a story.

[frederick61]

I believe JSR when he posted this from the WAHA guidelings:
“3. BEFORE AND AFTER ORGANIZATIONS: The only Tier I Before and
After program sanctioned by the Wisconsin Amateur Hockey Association shall be TEAM WISCONSIN.”

When I wrote the Blades/Shattuck game story, I wondered if the idea of a “before and after” program existed. I now believe that USA Hockey and the WAHA affiliate have known about before and after for some time and have used it in a limited way.

For that I thank JSR for the information.

Once that is known, the explanation of others as to why rules written for the full season programs apply to before and after programs except for the WAHA’s before and after program are mute arguments.
The USA people and their affiliate people (the ones who govern) are using the same logic Congress uses to exempt them from Obamacare. Not because it is the right thing to do, but because they can.

The real issue to me is that USA Hockey and its affiliate WAHA have gone down a path that restricts youth and girls teams from competition across the USA. They did this by allowing a single set of teams to play in national tourneys while denying other similar programs the opportunity to play.

It goes against the basic charter both organizations are entrusted with, fairness in development of youth hockey. To me, these are the facts. Frankly the other is BS because in the end it has little to do with expanding opportunities on the ice for youth and girls teams.

[greybeard58]

Fred,
In the National Bantam tournaments in 1999 in Edina and 2000 in Bloomington,Team Massachusetts in both years was a before and after registered team.
In the 19 and under USA playdowns in Minnesota 2005-06 there were 2 before and after teams allowed by Mn Hockey to compete as long as they met all the requirements as far as playing as a team a certain number of games along with the proof that the players on the team each participated in a certain number of games with that team. There were a couple of players disqualified because they did not meet the requirements. This was approved by the Mn Hockey board of Directors.
The before and after is needed because of the High School federation rules of being on 2 different teams during the season.

As for Shattuck, until the mid 90's Shattuck participated in the MSHSL for boys hockey until the MSHSL because of residency requirements literally banned them from playing hockey as a varsity sport. Not sure how it went down but they were allowed to register with USA /Mn Hockey but were not allowed to participate in any Mn Hockey state tournaments. Mn Hockey did participate in either the Tier I or Tier II National tournaments till the last one being in 2002.

[JSR]

I fully understand that each of those who are defending point to some set of rules to support what is going on in trying to answer the questions I posed.

The first question is did WAHA sanction Team Wisconsin as Tier I. The answer is yes. They sanctioned Team Wisconsin as Tier I under a rule called “before and after” and then wrote a rule not allowing any other before and after programs to be sanctioned Tier I

WAHA in do so broke the trust of the people they were governing.

The second question was "If USA Hockey went along with the WAHA sanction, why can’t other teams from other districts do the same?" The answer cam back "Because (you pick the USA rule out of those mentioned in this thread) says they can’t."

USA Hockey is equally breaking the trust of the people they were governing.

My analogy is:
“I live in my house. I have written a rule that I and only I can use the X box. All the other family members keep saying I can’t do that because it is not fair. But I wrote the rules.”

USA Hockey does not get “it”.

For starters they do not own the house; they at best the maintenance men. The real problem is the house they are suppose to maintain has been so poorly built that they scramble to patch things over. They can't regulate it. There are no means to uniformly apply the rules to assure competition.

The rules are so haphazardly put together over the years across the USA that old rules are entranced in various districts and won’t change. The result is a patchwork of team names, affiliates, districts, and associations that make no sense to the average person.

In the end, it is all about kids playing hockey and I wish each hockey official could find a way to set aside “officialdom” and make a simple decision, if the WAHA can create a before and after team, then others should be able to do it.

To deny that they can is simply not fair and defies logic.

Granted, I read through the above posts quickly, but I didn't see anywhere that others CAN'T do it. In fact, it looks like they can, they just have to be sanctioned by MN Hockey. If WAHA can do it then USA hockey couldn't tell another team they can't, it would be up to MN Hockey, right? The question is, "Has anyone tried and been denied by MN Hockey?" I haven't seen that anywhere. Does anyone even want to do this? It seems there would be some challenges. It sounds like you have to get 20 games in. In MN, who would you play? You have Shattuck and that's it. Would you have to travel to Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan just to get games? Is this better than just playing Elite League, High School season and then going and getting in 5-15 games in Juniors after the season?

Actually the games Team Wisconsin participate in as part of the MN Elite League count toward their 20 games. So no you wouldn't have to travel anywhere to get 20 games if you did it within the confines of the Elite League... Just sayin...

[JSR]

I fully understand that each of those who are defending point to some set of rules to support what is going on in trying to answer the questions I posed.

The first question is did WAHA sanction Team Wisconsin as Tier I. The answer is yes. They sanctioned Team Wisconsin as Tier I under a rule called “before and after” and then wrote a rule not allowing any other before and after programs to be sanctioned Tier I

WAHA in do so broke the trust of the people they were governing.

The second question was "If USA Hockey went along with the WAHA sanction, why can’t other teams from other districts do the same?" The answer cam back "Because (you pick the USA rule out of those mentioned in this thread) says they can’t."

USA Hockey is equally breaking the trust of the people they were governing.

My analogy is:
“I live in my house. I have written a rule that I and only I can use the X box. All the other family members keep saying I can’t do that because it is not fair. But I wrote the rules.”

USA Hockey does not get “it”.

For starters they do not own the house; they at best the maintenance men. The real problem is the house they are suppose to maintain has been so poorly built that they scramble to patch things over. They can't regulate it. There are no means to uniformly apply the rules to assure competition.

The rules are so haphazardly put together over the years across the USA that old rules are entranced in various districts and won’t change. The result is a patchwork of team names, affiliates, districts, and associations that make no sense to the average person.

In the end, it is all about kids playing hockey and I wish each hockey official could find a way to set aside “officialdom” and make a simple decision, if the WAHA can create a before and after team, then others should be able to do it.

To deny that they can is simply not fair and defies logic.

Fred, I don't disagree, there are many mind boggling rules in USA Hockey... just like the cross ice "mandate" we deal with in WI for U8's.... to me sometimes USA Hockey forgets itself and implements "rules" instead of "guidelines" for the masses.... while I don't disagree with you that some of the rules should be revisited the fact is right now they run the National Tournament, as such they can make their own rules for who participates.... to me there are two different things at work here for you, one is that you don't like the rules and want to see them changed, fair enough work toward that change. The second being you want to see MN field a team in the national tournaments, so while working toward the change you want to see above how about also investigating how a MN team could represent MN in the national tourneys and do so under the current rules. Sounds to me like a suggestion above mentioned starting a before and after team and applying to MN Hockey to be sanctioned as a Tier 1 AAA before and after team with naitonal tournament eligibility. Sounds like the two do not have to be mutually exclusive you could work toward accomplishing both.....

[frederick61]

JSR,
I really appreciate what you posted in this thread and think all that have responded are being thoughtful and constructive. When I started the thread, I knew little about before and after programs. Your posts help enlightened me on that subject.

USA Hockey runs the USA Hockey National Tourney because they have been given a charter to develop hockey in the USA. To maintain and grow the sport and keep their charter the organization needs the trust of the majority of the people involved.

To gain that trust, most participants (player, coach, and parents) have to feel they are being treated fairly. USA Hockey and its affiliate WAHA have developed an approach over the years that open the door for participation of select teams in national tourneys only and have closed it to others.

That is an undeniable fact. The people on this board may feel they are doing that for good reasons; but it crosses the line of their charters because it provides for unfairness at so many different levels for all the players and parents and coaches and team organizers by denying access to all to compete in the same manner.

What I personally want is not the issue. What I am pointing out is that USA hockey and any of affiliates should not impede any organization from developing a “before and after” program if they desire to do that and those organizations be allowed to compete in the same way the WAHA before and after teams are allowed to compete.

Or USA Hockey and it affiliates should end before and after by stating all such teams are not eligible for the National Tourneys.

But I believe is that by allowing before and after, competition to get to the national level will become stronger and I believe that would be better for the sport. That is not just a Shattuck/Minnesota issue; WAHA has few AAA organizations that compete at the national level and what few organizations they have had are getting fewer and as a result weaker.

Minnesota Hockey is founded on the idea that a broad base participation in the sport is far better than narrow “stove pipe” participation with a few good teams on top.

I believe that USA Hockey has developed a “stove pipe” approach driven by their approach to U18, U16, and U14 national tourneys and have no way of getting out of that except to watch participation numbers fall and the stove pipe get narrower.

What I would hope is that by truly allowing before and after programs, there would be renewed interest in the sport nationally. Moving in that direction beats doing nothing and trying to maintain the status quo.