Refs

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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Ref22
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Refs

Post by Ref22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:34 am

Post any questions, comments, gripes, (praises :shock: ) here about refs in your district? Local experienced ref here to answer questions and discuss situations

Mnhockeys
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:03 pm

Post by Mnhockeys » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:07 pm

At a Bantam game, ref blowed the whistle and called the puck covered by the goalie AFTER the puck went into the net.

The ref who made the call was right behind the kid who knocked in the puck.

What would you call this ref? Blind, home-cooking, incompetent or anything else?

Deep Breath

Post by Deep Breath » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:35 pm

It's a thankless job, but the "head contact" penalties are being handed out like tokens at Chuck E Cheese. Too many times this year i have seen good, clean checks result in a 2 and 10 for some kid. If the check is "loud", you can just about bet the mortgage that some kid is going to the box. Also, if two kids come together on the ice and one ends up down on the ice, the one left standing is most likely going to the box. Again, a thankless job, wouldn't want to do it at all. But, hockey is a very physical, aggressive sport. Sometimes a good, clean, hard check results in a player getting knocked to the ice or even shaken up.

Ref22
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Ref22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:52 pm

Deep Breath wrote:It's a thankless job, but the "head contact" penalties are being handed out like tokens at Chuck E Cheese. Too many times this year i have seen good, clean checks result in a 2 and 10 for some kid. If the check is "loud", you can just about bet the mortgage that some kid is going to the box. Also, if two kids come together on the ice and one ends up down on the ice, the one left standing is most likely going to the box. Again, a thankless job, wouldn't want to do it at all. But, hockey is a very physical, aggressive sport. Sometimes a good, clean, hard check results in a player getting knocked to the ice or even shaken up.
Agreed that it is being called too often, but that is a direct result of USA hockey jamming it down our throats and wanting to meet a certain statistic. Others such as checking from behind are being called less and less and being classified a lot as cross checking due to the severity of the checking from behind penalty

Ref22
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Ref22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:53 pm

Mnhockeys wrote:At a Bantam game, ref blowed the whistle and called the puck covered by the goalie AFTER the puck went into the net.

The ref who made the call was right behind the kid who knocked in the puck.

What would you call this ref? Blind, home-cooking, incompetent or anything else?
Sounds to me like he was out of position.

Deep Breath

Post by Deep Breath » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:59 pm

[/quote]Agreed that it is being called too often, but that is a direct result of USA hockey jamming it down our throats and wanting to meet a certain statistic. Others such as checking from behind are being called less and less and being classified a lot as cross checking due to the severity of the checking from behind penalty[/quote]

Are you saying that USA Hockey is encouraging refs to call it so they can then use the inflated statistics to tell is how "dangerous" the game has gotten?

Redarmy19
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Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:33 am

Post by Redarmy19 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:18 pm

Ref22 wrote:
Mnhockeys wrote:At a Bantam game, ref blowed the whistle and called the puck covered by the goalie AFTER the puck went into the net.

The ref who made the call was right behind the kid who knocked in the puck.

What would you call this ref? Blind, home-cooking, incompetent or anything else?
Sounds to me like he was out of position.
Isn't there also something about when he intends for play to stop vs. when he actually blows it....due to the split second it takes to bring it up to his mouth? I know was a rule in college, not sure about youth.

barry_mcconnell
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Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:43 pm

Post by barry_mcconnell » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:36 pm

Once the ref puts his arm up in the air is he obligated to call a penalty?

Game earlier this season kid gets tripped and arm went up (questionable call) . Ref took three strides then reconsidered and put arm back down (no icing or other pending infraction). Problem was that goalie made it half way to the bench and barely made it back into position to make save.

BluehawkHockey
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Post by BluehawkHockey » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:09 pm

As a father of a goalie, this is one of my pet peeves. When a goalie has either caught the puck and is holding it in the glove or has it covered with the glove, isn't it supposed to be a roughing or slashing call if the goalie is touched with a stick. Saw it just this weekend. Goalie caught the puck, ref didn't blow whistle right away and the glove hand was hit hard with a stick. Knocked the puck loose and the ref counted the goal. I can live with the most common version of this. The opposing playing touching the glove or pads with their stick with no intent to knock it loose. And often that is all that happens. But I've often seen that escalate into harder and harder touches and eventually the pushing and shoving starts.

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:20 pm

Redarmy19 wrote:
Ref22 wrote:
Mnhockeys wrote:At a Bantam game, ref blowed the whistle and called the puck covered by the goalie AFTER the puck went into the net.

The ref who made the call was right behind the kid who knocked in the puck.

What would you call this ref? Blind, home-cooking, incompetent or anything else?
Sounds to me like he was out of position.
Isn't there also something about when he intends for play to stop vs. when he actually blows it....due to the split second it takes to bring it up to his mouth? I know was a rule in college, not sure about youth.
Yes, that also applies in USA Hockey.

Ref22
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Ref22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:23 pm

barry_mcconnell wrote:Once the ref puts his arm up in the air is he obligated to call a penalty?

Game earlier this season kid gets tripped and arm went up (questionable call) . Ref took three strides then reconsidered and put arm back down (no icing or other pending infraction). Problem was that goalie made it half way to the bench and barely made it back into position to make save.
Ref loses all credibility after what he did and every call is questioned. He still should have the penalty after raising his arm even though he decided it wasn't an infraction.

Stripes2011
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Post by Stripes2011 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:31 pm

Being an official myself, for many years and at most level's (no WCHA or NHL). i think most would be amazed to actually read some of the rules as its pertained to penalties in the USA Officials Manual. When talking about head contact its pretty straight forward. Make contact with the head and a "head contact penalty shall be assessed". right or wrong, its any contact... accidental or not.... if we as officials do not call it we open ourselves up to criticism. their are still alot of players that initiate their "Check" by raising their arms. Manual says body contact is to be made with Shoulders and Hips.

I do know alot of officials that do their best to not "over call" a game. each official has their own judgment on what is or is not a penalty to them, and sometimes its situation related, age related, skilllevel related, and so on.

All officials (ok "all" is a big word - so I'll say "Most") take pride in the job they do, they enjoy what they do and they do it to the best of their ability. Keep in mind - training is similar to the structure USA Hockey uses to "Train" their coaches. In fact - their may be more required hours needed to become coaching certified then their is to be an official.

Maybe its a little close to home since I am an official. I better stop for now. maybe more later..

Stripes2011
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Post by Stripes2011 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:49 pm

barry_mcconnell wrote:
Once the ref puts his arm up in the air is he obligated to call a penalty?

Game earlier this season kid gets tripped and arm went up (questionable call) . Ref took three strides then reconsidered and put arm back down (no icing or other pending infraction). Problem was that goalie made it half way to the bench and barely made it back into position to make save.

Ref loses all credibility after what he did and every call is questioned. He still should have the penalty after raising his arm even though he decided it wasn't an infraction.



I'll add, that Yes if what happened in the Viewers Eye is correct. the official should not change thier mind by raising an arm to initiate a pentalty call then back it down. However - I have seen a number of times maybe the ref's arm went up to initiate an Icing? Delayed off sides? High Stick / Hand Pass........ etc. so maybe the goalie, Coach, fan's i.e. thought it was for a penalty when in fact it was not.... so i would not go as far as saying the official "loses all credibility" He potenially was correct and the writer is incorrect, or he possibly made a mistake which we all have done countless times!!! maybe the official is still fairly inexperienced!! [/quote]

bestpopcorn
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Post by bestpopcorn » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:39 pm

How many know the rules as they are TODAY?

I don't ref, but have run the clock for 15 years. As such, I am privy to the refs chatting between periods, etc. Many stories revolve around fans and coaches complaining based on old rules.

57special
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Post by 57special » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:30 pm

If a stick is slashed out of an opposing players hand (very obvious, strong slash) but no contact with the players body is made then is it a penalty? I know they call it most times in the NHL now, but never used to.

1excg
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Post by 1excg » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:22 pm

Thanks ref22, and I hope you'll stick around! Indeed you have a thankless job and many thanks. Regarding your comment about USA hockey, do you mean you have a quota of head contact penalties to meet?

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:02 am

1excg wrote:Thanks ref22, and I hope you'll stick around! Indeed you have a thankless job and many thanks. Regarding your comment about USA hockey, do you mean you have a quota of head contact penalties to meet?
I probably worded that differently than I should have. No quota to meet but they have really stressed the importance of making the head contact call no matter the severity. They want accurate data (officials have to file a report for each head contact/ checking behind, etc that is called) but not many officials want to give a misconduct to a for a slight face wash in a post whistle scrum)

Mnhockeys
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Post by Mnhockeys » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:08 am

For a game, normally teams pay $200-250 for the ice, somewhere around $80-100 for ref. You do your job when you get paid!

If you feel you didn't get enough thanks for being ref, don't do it! Rumor on the street goes that many experienced refs try hard to get ref schedules, and that is why younger refs don't get any.

Not saying hockey ref is an easy JOB and/or should not be allowed to make mistakes, but remember you expect to be paid for doing the job correctly.

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:10 am

57special wrote:If a stick is slashed out of an opposing players hand (very obvious, strong slash) but no contact with the players body is made then is it a penalty? I know they call it most times in the NHL now, but never used to.
Yes, it is a penalty. The purpose of the stick is only to play the puck.

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:22 am

Mnhockeys wrote:For a game, normally teams pay $200-250 for the ice, somewhere around $80-100 for ref. You do your job when you get paid!

If you feel you didn't get enough thanks for being ref, don't do it! Rumor on the street goes that many experienced refs try hard to get ref schedules, and that is why younger refs don't get any.

Not saying hockey ref is an easy JOB and/or should not be allowed to make mistakes, but remember you expect to be paid for doing the job correctly.
That's not the purpose of the thread and I don't think many if any ref outside of high school age kids refs for the money. Those that do it mainly for the money usually quit within a year or two.

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:48 am

bestpopcorn wrote:How many know the rules as they are TODAY?

I don't ref, but have run the clock for 15 years. As such, I am privy to the refs chatting between periods, etc. Many stories revolve around fans and coaches complaining based on old rules.
Coaches are pretty good at staying up to date on rules. I generally try not to be rabbit ears but sometimes with the way the rinks are laid out you can't help but hear the parents in the stands. We hear some crazy stuff, but I wouldn't expect a parent to read the rule book.

One rule a lot of coaches and fans haven't grasped is an icing call that was waived off but the back ref or linesmen but whistled down by the front ref. The face off takes place at the nearest end zone face off spot of where the icing was called. Previously face offs resulting in erroneous icings took place at center ice which is what many think is still the rule. Usually not a huge deal but the question almost gets raised.

Bluewhitefan
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Post by Bluewhitefan » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:03 am

Ref22

What is the obligation of a ref to explain a controversial call to the coaches? I'm gettting very annoyed with refs (D6), that skate away or immediately drop the puck when a coach is trying to get their attention. Some of the D6 refs seem to have no respect for the coaches, volunteer parents, players etc. I understand that coaches that are flying of the handle might need to be ignored, but I'm talking about reasonable, experienced coaches that are simply looking for an explanation of a call.

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:41 am

Ref22 wrote:
bestpopcorn wrote:How many know the rules as they are TODAY?

I don't ref, but have run the clock for 15 years. As such, I am privy to the refs chatting between periods, etc. Many stories revolve around fans and coaches complaining based on old rules.
Coaches are pretty good at staying up to date on rules. I generally try not to be rabbit ears but sometimes with the way the rinks are laid out you can't help but hear the parents in the stands. We hear some crazy stuff, but I wouldn't expect a parent to read the rule book.

One rule a lot of coaches and fans haven't grasped is an icing call that was waived off but the back ref or linesmen but whistled down by the front ref. The face off takes place at the nearest end zone face off spot of where the icing was called. Previously face offs resulting in erroneous icings took place at center ice which is what many think is still the rule. Usually not a huge deal but the question almost gets raised.
I was guilty of getting on a ref about that early this season. Have to admit, I didn't know the rule and had to look it up. I was wrong, however, I maintain the rule is unfair. We were on a power play when the shorthanded team iced the puck which the ref accidently blew dead. The result was a faceoff in our zone to the right of the goaltender. We lost the faceoff which resulted in a scoring chance for the other team. Thankfully they didn't convert.

Why punish a team with a defensive zone faceoff for a referree's error? It was explained that this is where the puck was when it was blown dead so this is where play should be restarted. Problem is, we were on a power play and the other team was changing lines. The play was not being contested at all in our end and we were freely breaking out. The whistle resulted in a contested faceoff. Two completely different scenarios.

Speaking with another ref a few weeks ago and we were discussing this rule. I told him I thought it was unfair and he just chcuckled and told me to wait, this is USA Hockey, they'll probably change the rule next week.

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:34 am

Bluewhitefan wrote:Ref22

What is the obligation of a ref to explain a controversial call to the coaches? I'm gettting very annoyed with refs (D6), that skate away or immediately drop the puck when a coach is trying to get their attention. Some of the D6 refs seem to have no respect for the coaches, volunteer parents, players etc. I understand that coaches that are flying of the handle might need to be ignored, but I'm talking about reasonable, experienced coaches that are simply looking for an explanation of a call.
What level?
No obligation. It'd be wise to explain it quickly (a rule) but time is precious in league games. I appreciate all coaches but I don't respect them all. However, I'd never humiliate intentionally a coach or player.

bestpopcorn
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:47 am

Post by bestpopcorn » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:45 am

Bluewhitefan wrote:Ref22

What is the obligation of a ref to explain a controversial call to the coaches? I'm gettting very annoyed with refs (D6), that skate away or immediately drop the puck when a coach is trying to get their attention. Some of the D6 refs seem to have no respect for the coaches, volunteer parents, players etc. I understand that coaches that are flying of the handle might need to be ignored, but I'm talking about reasonable, experienced coaches that are simply looking for an explanation of a call.
There are some coaches that get explanations, some that don't. It may have to do with history.

We have a coach in our assn that NEVER gets an explanation. He does question every other call.

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