Curious to here your thoughts on forwards "spraying" the goalie's face with snow on a hard stop right in front of him. At times, this is an unavoidable consequence of a goal mouth scramble. Other times, when the goalie has clearly covered the puck, no immediate pressure on him, nothing to see here, and a forward goes to the net hard, stops right in front of the goalie, and gives him a face full of snow. What is your interpretation of this play?
My interpretation is that I'm giving one of the goalies teammates a roughing penalty and the offender an unsportsmanlike.
Why does the goalie's teammate get a roughing penalty, when according to the scenario stated, none of his teammates are involved?
Cause you would hope one of the goalie's teammates will jump in to rough up the snow sprayer. They always do.
Duluthguy wrote:
Why does the goalie's teammate get a roughing penalty, when according to the scenario stated, none of his teammates are involved?
Cause you would hope one of the goalie's teammates will jump in to rough up the snow sprayer. They always do.
correct
Well, not all the time. And the cynic in me thinks that if the goalie's teammate doesn't step in, the sprayer doesn't get a penalty. But when he does step in, they both go.
I've seen it that way more than once, and in other scenarios: Player from Team A delivers hit, and the ref's arm doesn't go up until player from team B retaliates, then they both go. If the first contact wasn't a penalty in the first place, why does he get one only after the retaliation?
Sorry for being cynical...and Ref, I know you don't represent all officials and can only share how you call things and don't speak for others. But like I said, this scenario isn't uncommon.
Wanted to confirm that at the youth (Squirt) level UASH rules allow only one captain and two alternates. I'm pretty sure that the CAHA allows one C and up to three Alternates.
57special wrote:Wanted to confirm that at the youth (Squirt) level UASH rules allow only one captain and two alternates. I'm pretty sure that the CAHA allows one C and up to three Alternates.
Let me first start by saying there is no need for a captain at any youth level until midget/high school. Even at the bantam level there is little chance that the captain will ask the question that a coach wants him to or relay the message back to a coach correctly. The only reason that a captain should possibly be used at bantam and below is for the coach to have someone to send to an official letting them know that their coach would like to speak with them, an honestly at the youth level a coach can send any player who can form words. Why you ask... how about instead of the coach screaming and flapping his arms creating tension before the ref can get to the box it is handle calmly and the ref might be more apt to go talk to him.
Other than that I always assume the C=Coaches Kid and the A=Assistant Coaches Kid and the patches are there to stroke egos. You can have a leader of a team without announcing it.
Anyway, off my pedestal now. This is from the USA Hockey Rule Book
Prior to the start of the game, each team shall designate one
Captain and not more than two Alternates on the scoresheet.
Only one of these designated players shall have the privilege
of discussing with the Referee any questions relating to
interpretation of rules that may arise during the progress of a
game. No goalkeepers shall be entitled to exercise the
privileges of Captain.
Each designated player should wear the letter “C” or “A,”
approximately three inches in height and in contrasting
color, on the front of the sweater.[/i]
57special wrote:Wanted to confirm that at the youth (Squirt) level UASH rules allow only one captain and two alternates. I'm pretty sure that the CAHA allows one C and up to three Alternates.
That is for all the info, ref22. One more for you.
Puck is cleared from inside to 6' outside blue line by defending team where it hits ref, then bounces back in directly to offensive team, who have yet to clear zone. No whistle is blown, and offensive team scores. Ref explains lack of whistle by saying official is the same as a defender in this case.
Puck is cleared from inside to 6' outside blue line by defending team where it hits ref, then bounces back inside directly to offensive team, who have yet to clear zone. No whistle is blown, and offensive team scores. Ref explains lack of whistle by saying official is the same as a defender in this case.
57special wrote:Thanks for all the info, ref22. One more for you.
Puck is cleared from inside to 6' outside blue line by defending team where it hits ref, then bounces back inside directly to offensive team, who have yet to clear zone. No whistle is blown, and offensive team scores. Ref explains lack of whistle by saying official is the same as a defender in this case.
Correct call?
Not correct. Ref stands outside blue line as to not keep puck in zone. After hits ref and comes back in it would be delayed offside and offsides when offensive team touched it. Ref needs to get that call right. Offsides and icings are black and white and need to be called correctly every time or at a very high percentage.
57special wrote:Thanks for all the info, ref22. One more for you.
Puck is cleared from inside to 6' outside blue line by defending team where it hits ref, then bounces back inside directly to offensive team, who have yet to clear zone. No whistle is blown, and offensive team scores. Ref explains lack of whistle by saying official is the same as a defender in this case.
Correct call?
The next one is right. Just curious what level was this? young ref? how did he do otherwise? That is an awful explanation that an experienced coach would tear him apart for.
Squirt ref. Very young. It was the second obvious missed off side on that shift. Had a civil word after the game in the handshake line and said he had to call that one, and he came up with that explanation. I was bemused, to say the least.... The good news is that we didn't lose the game because of that, though it was very close.
Word to the wise! Do you ever see Edina Varsity or EP varsity play a night game at home in a big game on a Saturday? No. Here is how it works! Friday and Saturday nights Mens D1, D3, Womens D1, D3. Pool of good refs shrinks. Add HS boys and Girls now getting very slim. Bantam AA and BB1 slimmer. Now add all the age groups in front of your little johnny or Janie on a Tuesday, Thursday or Saturday and what you see on the ice is what you get. If the referee was a good ref on a Tuesday, Thursday, Friday night or Saturday night he is working high level. Thanks to girls hockey the pool shrinks. The guy in the ice doing a peewee game on Saturday night is what it is. Schedule Monday, Wednesday and Sunday if you want quality.
moves better than berny wrote:Word to the wise! Do you ever see Edina Varsity or EP varsity play a night game at home in a big game on a Saturday? No. Here is how it works! Friday and Saturday nights Mens D1, D3, Womens D1, D3. Pool of good refs shrinks. Add HS boys and Girls now getting very slim. Bantam AA and BB1 slimmer. Now add all the age groups in front of your little johnny or Janie on a Tuesday, Thursday or Saturday and what you see on the ice is what you get. If the referee was a good ref on a Tuesday, Thursday, Friday night or Saturday night he is working high level. Thanks to girls hockey the pool shrinks. The guy in the ice doing a peewee game on Saturday night is what it is. Schedule Monday, Wednesday and Sunday if you want quality.
Stop bitchin and pick up a whistle.
College, HS and youth official.
This is partially true and certainly not fact. I also ref high school, college and belong to a couple different youth district associations. It really depends on the district. District 6 is head and shoulder above any other district as far as official quality goes. I have reffed many who are excellent referees (better than guys doing high school and college) and the majority of them don't ref high school or college for a multitude of reasons.
Another weekend of close youth level MN hockey games decided by the refs. You know a team is getting bad calls when the opposing fans are getting upset by what's going on and it's not even their team. I'm not a parent or coach of any of these teams, but I overheard some discussion of what recourse there is to address incompetent refs (and refs who are probably good but just didn't show up.) They were not talking about finding the guys in the parking lot after the game, or trying to change the outcome or decision of any call. Just felt strongly that those 3 guys don't belong in stripes, at least at this level.
"This is partially true and certainly not fact. I also ref high school, college and belong to a couple different youth district associations. It really depends on the district. District 6 is head and shoulder above any other district as far as official quality goes. I have reffed many who are excellent referees (better than guys doing high school and college) and the majority of them don't ref high school or college for a multitude of reasons."
Ref 22 Can you expand on this statement regarding D6 officials being head and shoulders above any other district as far as official quality goes?
[/quote]
This is partially true and certainly not fact. I also ref high school, college and belong to a couple different youth district associations. It really depends on the district. District 6 is head and shoulder above any other district as far as official quality goes. I have reffed many who are excellent referees (better than guys doing high school and college) and the majority of them don't ref high school or college for a multitude of reasons.[/quote]
This might qualify for #1 on common mans Most Preposterous Statements... D6 especially at the bantam level is the most notorious district for poor and inconsistent officiating. The Edina and Eden Prairie holiday tourneys continue to lose top teams and cite officiating. I would give credit for most consistent officiating to D10. They all miss calls but D10 will give good feedback to the players as to why the call was made and how to avoid them in the future for calls that are questionable. They allow the players to play and try to stay out of the way. My experience in D6 this season in the 10-12 games I observed was atrocious. There are a few refs there that are really good 1 specifically (he goes by tony). However in the rest of the games the official got in the way of the flow of the game in a major way. One official got into banter with the parents and eventually threw a parent out that he originally engaged with. This same official dropped F bombs and steady profanity at players and completely lost control. D6 needs to do some major work with eliminating the bad officials because those are the ones that give the bad rep. They can't be afraid to tell the older guys that their time has passed. They need to make an effort to recruit and retain young and quality officials.
To those who feel the refs are so terrible there is a simple solution...become a ref yourself. You clearly have the ability to make perfect calls every time. My guess is you will find out A. it's a really hard job and B. fans and coaches are out of their minds...(and see through biased eyes).
Why don't we have as many good refs as we all want? Because the job sucks. People screaming at you and who often have no idea what they are talking about. I wouldn't do it. I won't let my kids do it. My daughter asked me about becoming a ref...I said no way...I have seen to many refs including kids in training berated by some way to intense adults(?).
In all seriousness if we want good refs we need to make the job desirable not miserable....and that means dramatically increasing pay to make the abuse worthwhile or get parents/coaches under control. I don't see either happening any time soon.
In a state where we have 10's of thousands of former hockey players why don't we have more ref-fing?
edgeless2 wrote:"This is partially true and certainly not fact. I also ref high school, college and belong to a couple different youth district associations. It really depends on the district. District 6 is head and shoulder above any other district as far as official quality goes. I have reffed many who are excellent referees (better than guys doing high school and college) and the majority of them don't ref high school or college for a multitude of reasons."
Ref 22 Can you expand on this statement regarding D6 officials being head and shoulders above any other district as far as official quality goes?
D6 has a different standard that many associations for moving referees up the ladder. In most districts you could never ref a game in your life and attend 2 seminars to be a USA hockey level 2 official and stripe a bantam AA game theoretically.In one district I reffed with a gentleman that could barely skate and this was at the peewee AA level. D6 there are 7 levels with first year officials not reffing above squirt b without being evaluated. no bias from me as I belong to multiple associations and am going off of what I have seen and what I have been told by coache, etc.
Stars67 wrote:
This might qualify for #1 on common mans Most Preposterous Statements... D6 especially at the bantam level is the most notorious district for poor and inconsistent officiating. The Edina and Eden Prairie holiday tourneys continue to lose top teams and cite officiating. I would give credit for most consistent officiating to D10. They all miss calls but D10 will give good feedback to the players as to why the call was made and how to avoid them in the future for calls that are questionable. They allow the players to play and try to stay out of the way. My experience in D6 this season in the 10-12 games I observed was atrocious. There are a few refs there that are really good 1 specifically (he goes by tony). However in the rest of the games the official got in the way of the flow of the game in a major way. One official got into banter with the parents and eventually threw a parent out that he originally engaged with. This same official dropped F bombs and steady profanity at players and completely lost control. D6 needs to do some major work with eliminating the bad officials because those are the ones that give the bad rep. They can't be afraid to tell the older guys that their time has passed. They need to make an effort to recruit and retain young and quality officials.
This is true in some cases. Most realize they are slowing down but they got to that level on merit and were once very good officials.[/quote]
CommunityBased wrote:To those who feel the refs are so terrible there is a simple solution...become a ref yourself. You clearly have the ability to make perfect calls every time. My guess is you will find out A. it's a really hard job and B. fans and coaches are out of their minds...(and see through biased eyes).
Why don't we have as many good refs as we all want? Because the job sucks. People screaming at you and who often have no idea what they are talking about. I wouldn't do it. I won't let my kids do it. My daughter asked me about becoming a ref...I said no way...I have seen to many refs including kids in training berated by some way to intense adults(?).
In all seriousness if we want good refs we need to make the job desirable not miserable....and that means dramatically increasing pay to make the abuse worthwhile or get parents/coaches under control. I don't see either happening any time soon.
In a state where we have 10's of thousands of former hockey players why don't we have more ref-fing?
Why not let her give it a shot? It's a great job for a kid in high school when they don't have games. Just have her ref 10B and squirt C games where the games are not as intense. The lower levels are the worst as far as coaches not knowing what they are talking about but generally 10B and squirt C's you shouldn't see a coach berating a ref. If a grown man is screaming at a high school kid at that level he has a lot more issues.
Every ref eventually runs in to someone that is going to berate them but you learn to not take it personally.
I've found the officiating in Bantam D6 to be extremely tight. 2 and 10's are handed out like candy. At this point I think they might as well just go to non checking, as it more accurately describes what is being officiated, for the most part.
There are some good refs in D6. One in particular breaks me up... And I'm sure as hell not going to argue with him. There are a couple that make me roll my eyes as soon as I see them.
CommunityBased wrote:To those who feel the refs are so terrible there is a simple solution...become a ref yourself. You clearly have the ability to make perfect calls every time. My guess is you will find out A. it's a really hard job and B. fans and coaches are out of their minds...(and see through biased eyes).
Why don't we have as many good refs as we all want? Because the job sucks. People screaming at you and who often have no idea what they are talking about. I wouldn't do it. I won't let my kids do it. My daughter asked me about becoming a ref...I said no way...I have seen to many refs including kids in training berated by some way to intense adults(?).
In all seriousness if we want good refs we need to make the job desirable not miserable....and that means dramatically increasing pay to make the abuse worthwhile or get parents/coaches under control. I don't see either happening any time soon.
In a state where we have 10's of thousands of former hockey players why don't we have more ref-fing?
What would constitute a decent wage? I have been writing checks to officials for scrimmages, etc for the last 6 years and IMO, they are compensated more than fairly. What other part time job would you be able to make $40 - $50 dollars an hour?
As the parent of 2 kids that are involved in different sports over the course of the year I feel the single biggest problem with youth officials is that too many of them view themselves as more important than the kids they are there to ref. Just this weekend @ regions we were on the short end of 4 consecutive penalties (I had no issue with any of them). Shortly thereafter, there was a scrum in front opponents net, and we see one our players get hit from behind, smack her head against the goal, dislodge said net and layed out on ice for 2-3 minutes, 3 refs present and no call whatsoever. Crowd is going nuts, and what is the refs reaction? He points to the crowd and asks, "do any of you want to go home for the weekend?"
Referees are paid fairly for their service, and need to be held accountable for their performance at all levels.
Two of my kids ref. It is a great gig. You do have to have a thick skin. I actually have gotten to the point that I like to go down and watch them ref just to see how they react to the howling. Squirt parents are the worst, the funnest to watch.
Squirt parents are lunatics.
My youngest just finished his Jr. year of high school. I have been running the clock at youth games for 10 years, probably over 250 games, it is the best way to watch a game. One of the fun parts of being a minor official is chatting with the refs between periods and after the game. In all of these years there have been a few times when folks complain bitterly about some huge penalty that was missed. To the last time the ref (there is only ONE ref per game in a 3 man system) did not see whatever it was happen.
