Minnesota Hockey Needs A Geography Lesson

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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This is nuts!
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Post by This is nuts! » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:59 am

JSR wrote:
This is nuts! wrote:
MWS coach wrote:Exactly Nuts! Each of these teams did have their shot at making state. It really shouldn't matter the geography of where each team is from. Win and you are in. Geography and who you play against should make no difference. Regions start with 32 teams and end up with 8 going to state, of the 24 teams that didn't make it many had close losses and many going to OT, but if they would have not had so and so in their region, then they might just have made it..... Teams from 11,12,15,16 get more opportunties as there are less teams in each district (in general) then the cities teams yet still send rotating 2-3 teams from each district, just like every other district. Each district rotates on a predetermined basis. How can this not be fair? The only issue I see is the regions are named by geography which they don't actually represent.

The thinking that a "north" team should always make it no matter the results on the ice is the same as thinking a D6 team should automatically make it because it is generally the strongest district and pays the most in MN Hockey fee's due to having the largest number of participants.
Thx, northern teams need realize that metro teams want to make it to state just as bad as they do.. They are all just kids that have the same dream. And
they have tough road to get there.. Maybe even tougher as they often have to get thru the perennial juggernauts in their districts just to get to the regional tourny. Most metro teams feel its a huge accomplishment just to go to regions.. The north is taking it a step further and demanding a state spot.. Really?

I thought it was great to watching closely contested region games between the north and metro teams. What an experience for all the kids regardless of where u are from.. Hell, if Warroad beats park and virginia wins u have 3 northern teams in the tourny to include Alexandria.. Just win and you re in.. Maybe next year it goes that way.. That's the Beauty of it.

We live in a world of entitlement .. I m sorry but it sounds like whining. Take it for what it is. Earn your spot. Instead of telling your kids they got screwed cuz you weren't just given a spot. Tell them great game we need to get
better.

When my kids complain about playing time. I tell them to get better. Most parents hug them and blame the coach and scream foul cuz of politics. I tell my them to earn their time.. North teams earn your spot! You have good teams you just lost close games.
Nuts, I hate the "enmtitlement" whining in our societya s much as anyone, but I honestly do not think that is what this is. I think you have to earn a state title but you also have to grow the game EVERYWHERE at the youth level. The reality is that have true "regions" gives kdis something realistic to strive for and work for. When you give the metro area even more shots at state by putting metro teams into northern regions you squash many associations realistic ability to ever make state, in turn you squash the desire for many to consinute to participate. I don't disagree with "earning your spot" but you have to earn it once you are there and you also have to keep the dream alive to keep people participating, or else you go down a slippery slope. Is a future where the only hockey teams left in MN reside in the metro area really the road you want taken? I know that is extreme but it's not far from reality when you keep digging into the knickers of outstate associations....
I get why it's good to grow the game everywhere. I always root for the northern teams in the state tourny. But there are 100's of metro and out state teams that never even get a chance at a region spot much less a state spot because of their numbers. State tourny is a special honor not to given away. It's to to earned.

I don't think we would be going down a slippery slope either. I sure hope a northern program doesn't fold cuz they lose a tough region championship game and don't make the state tourny. Those programs will fold when they no longer have the numbers to make a team. Grad classes of 80 or less, say half being boys. They have sustained for 80 plus years both making the tourny and not making it.

Look at luverne. They r as far south as u can get and they r making some noise in regions and state.. What a story. They earned it, didn't ask for it. Growing the game is also growing it in the metro, it's nice to see different metro teams that are making their first appearance in the tourny.. Great stories as well.

All teams/areas should get an opportunity at regions. From there u need to make some hay. I watched great games in regions between northern and metro teams, games could of went either way. Maybe next year there are several north teams in tourny.

For instance peewee A. If you don't think its good for hockey to have Farmington, Armstrong, Spring Lake Park, Sartell in the tourny your crazy. All names you normally don't see. Being in the tourny is huge for those programs that are just trying to sustain itself.

Kids are kids regardless of where you are from.. They all have the dream and all have an opportunity..

ILTG
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:41 am

Post by ILTG » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:37 am

MSHSL does geographic regions. Run a couple of metro teams through Luverne's section and we might not have that great story. Armstrong and I believe Farmington have AA high schools....great for them I guess?

MWS coach
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 am

Post by MWS coach » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:02 pm

ILTG wrote:MSHSL does geographic regions. Run a couple of metro teams through Luverne's section and we might not have that great story. Armstrong and I believe Farmington have AA high schools....great for them I guess?
Yeah, section 7 has the teams north and east of Hinkley and ohhh yeah, those other North Teams. ER, FL, Andover, STMA, and St. Francis. Seems to add up to more teams then DE, Cloquet, and GR?

Grasping at straws?

ShakestheClown
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:11 pm

Post by ShakestheClown » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:27 pm

Naming the regions geographically is a farce.

MN Hockey give regions geographical names and doesn't seem to care whether or not the teams participating in those regions are properly geographically assigned.

It would save a lot of gnashing of teeth, if they just gave the regions random names, and be done with the idea that geographical representation matters.

JSR
Posts: 1673
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:50 pm

This is nuts! wrote:
JSR wrote:
This is nuts! wrote:
MWS coach wrote:Exactly Nuts! Each of these teams did have their shot at making state. It really shouldn't matter the geography of where each team is from. Win and you are in. Geography and who you play against should make no difference. Regions start with 32 teams and end up with 8 going to state, of the 24 teams that didn't make it many had close losses and many going to OT, but if they would have not had so and so in their region, then they might just have made it..... Teams from 11,12,15,16 get more opportunties as there are less teams in each district (in general) then the cities teams yet still send rotating 2-3 teams from each district, just like every other district. Each district rotates on a predetermined basis. How can this not be fair? The only issue I see is the regions are named by geography which they don't actually represent.

The thinking that a "north" team should always make it no matter the results on the ice is the same as thinking a D6 team should automatically make it because it is generally the strongest district and pays the most in MN Hockey fee's due to having the largest number of participants.
Thx, northern teams need realize that metro teams want to make it to state just as bad as they do.. They are all just kids that have the same dream. And
they have tough road to get there.. Maybe even tougher as they often have to get thru the perennial juggernauts in their districts just to get to the regional tourny. Most metro teams feel its a huge accomplishment just to go to regions.. The north is taking it a step further and demanding a state spot.. Really?

I thought it was great to watching closely contested region games between the north and metro teams. What an experience for all the kids regardless of where u are from.. Hell, if Warroad beats park and virginia wins u have 3 northern teams in the tourny to include Alexandria.. Just win and you re in.. Maybe next year it goes that way.. That's the Beauty of it.

We live in a world of entitlement .. I m sorry but it sounds like whining. Take it for what it is. Earn your spot. Instead of telling your kids they got screwed cuz you weren't just given a spot. Tell them great game we need to get
better.

When my kids complain about playing time. I tell them to get better. Most parents hug them and blame the coach and scream foul cuz of politics. I tell my them to earn their time.. North teams earn your spot! You have good teams you just lost close games.
Nuts, I hate the "enmtitlement" whining in our societya s much as anyone, but I honestly do not think that is what this is. I think you have to earn a state title but you also have to grow the game EVERYWHERE at the youth level. The reality is that have true "regions" gives kdis something realistic to strive for and work for. When you give the metro area even more shots at state by putting metro teams into northern regions you squash many associations realistic ability to ever make state, in turn you squash the desire for many to consinute to participate. I don't disagree with "earning your spot" but you have to earn it once you are there and you also have to keep the dream alive to keep people participating, or else you go down a slippery slope. Is a future where the only hockey teams left in MN reside in the metro area really the road you want taken? I know that is extreme but it's not far from reality when you keep digging into the knickers of outstate associations....
I get why it's good to grow the game everywhere. I always root for the northern teams in the state tourny. But there are 100's of metro and out state teams that never even get a chance at a region spot much less a state spot because of their numbers. State tourny is a special honor not to given away. It's to to earned.

I don't think we would be going down a slippery slope either. I sure hope a northern program doesn't fold cuz they lose a tough region championship game and don't make the state tourny. Those programs will fold when they no longer have the numbers to make a team. Grad classes of 80 or less, say half being boys. They have sustained for 80 plus years both making the tourny and not making it.

Look at luverne. They r as far south as u can get and they r making some noise in regions and state.. What a story. They earned it, didn't ask for it. Growing the game is also growing it in the metro, it's nice to see different metro teams that are making their first appearance in the tourny.. Great stories as well.

All teams/areas should get an opportunity at regions. From there u need to make some hay. I watched great games in regions between northern and metro teams, games could of went either way. Maybe next year there are several north teams in tourny.

For instance peewee A. If you don't think its good for hockey to have Farmington, Armstrong, Spring Lake Park, Sartell in the tourny your crazy. All names you normally don't see. Being in the tourny is huge for those programs that are just trying to sustain itself.

Kids are kids regardless of where you are from.. They all have the dream and all have an opportunity..
Agree to disagree. I still think there is something "good" about keeping actual regional matchups alive. Our state high school tournaments all do it that way and no one has an issue with the traditional way of doing it, our youth hockey does it that way for our state tourney and no one dislikes it, not sure why youth hockey up there is bucking the trend. To me this is like having Superior, WI going against a Madison, WI team in a regional playdown to get to state, makes no sense at all IMHO. Once you get to state and are one of the 8 teams there you still have to win three games to win the title so no one, not even in my scenario, is "given" a trophy, but I still think it's the right thing to make it regional. Are some regions going to be alot tougher than others, yep, but atleast it's a state title and not just a northern title, or a metro title or whatever.... What I don;t egt is I would have thought the fact tha you have a AA, an A and a B1 state tourney and the associations can designate the level they play at that season, then why doesn't this solve some of the issues of the "haves" vs "have nots" and the ability to get to state, I would think keeping traditional regions with logical borders intact combined with the level designation would give everyone a fair chance at state, why even the need for these random "nonregional" matchups prior to state???? ..... I get what you are saying and you have some valid points but I still disagree with it, it just doesn't feel right

MWS coach
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 am

Post by MWS coach » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:33 pm

JSR wrote:
This is nuts! wrote:
JSR wrote:
This is nuts! wrote:
MWS coach wrote:Exactly Nuts! Each of these teams did have their shot at making state. It really shouldn't matter the geography of where each team is from. Win and you are in. Geography and who you play against should make no difference. Regions start with 32 teams and end up with 8 going to state, of the 24 teams that didn't make it many had close losses and many going to OT, but if they would have not had so and so in their region, then they might just have made it..... Teams from 11,12,15,16 get more opportunties as there are less teams in each district (in general) then the cities teams yet still send rotating 2-3 teams from each district, just like every other district. Each district rotates on a predetermined basis. How can this not be fair? The only issue I see is the regions are named by geography which they don't actually represent.

The thinking that a "north" team should always make it no matter the results on the ice is the same as thinking a D6 team should automatically make it because it is generally the strongest district and pays the most in MN Hockey fee's due to having the largest number of participants.
Thx, northern teams need realize that metro teams want to make it to state just as bad as they do.. They are all just kids that have the same dream. And
they have tough road to get there.. Maybe even tougher as they often have to get thru the perennial juggernauts in their districts just to get to the regional tourny. Most metro teams feel its a huge accomplishment just to go to regions.. The north is taking it a step further and demanding a state spot.. Really?

I thought it was great to watching closely contested region games between the north and metro teams. What an experience for all the kids regardless of where u are from.. Hell, if Warroad beats park and virginia wins u have 3 northern teams in the tourny to include Alexandria.. Just win and you re in.. Maybe next year it goes that way.. That's the Beauty of it.

We live in a world of entitlement .. I m sorry but it sounds like whining. Take it for what it is. Earn your spot. Instead of telling your kids they got screwed cuz you weren't just given a spot. Tell them great game we need to get
better.

When my kids complain about playing time. I tell them to get better. Most parents hug them and blame the coach and scream foul cuz of politics. I tell my them to earn their time.. North teams earn your spot! You have good teams you just lost close games.
Nuts, I hate the "enmtitlement" whining in our societya s much as anyone, but I honestly do not think that is what this is. I think you have to earn a state title but you also have to grow the game EVERYWHERE at the youth level. The reality is that have true "regions" gives kdis something realistic to strive for and work for. When you give the metro area even more shots at state by putting metro teams into northern regions you squash many associations realistic ability to ever make state, in turn you squash the desire for many to consinute to participate. I don't disagree with "earning your spot" but you have to earn it once you are there and you also have to keep the dream alive to keep people participating, or else you go down a slippery slope. Is a future where the only hockey teams left in MN reside in the metro area really the road you want taken? I know that is extreme but it's not far from reality when you keep digging into the knickers of outstate associations....
I get why it's good to grow the game everywhere. I always root for the northern teams in the state tourny. But there are 100's of metro and out state teams that never even get a chance at a region spot much less a state spot because of their numbers. State tourny is a special honor not to given away. It's to to earned.

I don't think we would be going down a slippery slope either. I sure hope a northern program doesn't fold cuz they lose a tough region championship game and don't make the state tourny. Those programs will fold when they no longer have the numbers to make a team. Grad classes of 80 or less, say half being boys. They have sustained for 80 plus years both making the tourny and not making it.

Look at luverne. They r as far south as u can get and they r making some noise in regions and state.. What a story. They earned it, didn't ask for it. Growing the game is also growing it in the metro, it's nice to see different metro teams that are making their first appearance in the tourny.. Great stories as well.

All teams/areas should get an opportunity at regions. From there u need to make some hay. I watched great games in regions between northern and metro teams, games could of went either way. Maybe next year there are several north teams in tourny.

For instance peewee A. If you don't think its good for hockey to have Farmington, Armstrong, Spring Lake Park, Sartell in the tourny your crazy. All names you normally don't see. Being in the tourny is huge for those programs that are just trying to sustain itself.

Kids are kids regardless of where you are from.. They all have the dream and all have an opportunity..
Agree to disagree. I still think there is something "good" about keeping actual regional matchups alive. Our state high school tournaments all do it that way and no one has an issue with the traditional way of doing it, our youth hockey does it that way for our state tourney and no one dislikes it, not sure why youth hockey up there is bucking the trend. To me this is like having Superior, WI going against a Madison, WI team in a regional playdown to get to state, makes no sense at all IMHO. Once you get to state and are one of the 8 teams there you still have to win three games to win the title so no one, not even in my scenario, is "given" a trophy, but I still think it's the right thing to make it regional. Are some regions going to be alot tougher than others, yep, but atleast it's a state title and not just a northern title, or a metro title or whatever.... What I don;t egt is I would have thought the fact tha you have a AA, an A and a B1 state tourney and the associations can designate the level they play at that season, then why doesn't this solve some of the issues of the "haves" vs "have nots" and the ability to get to state, I would think keeping traditional regions with logical borders intact combined with the level designation would give everyone a fair chance at state, why even the need for these random "nonregional" matchups prior to state???? ..... I get what you are saying and you have some valid points but I still disagree with it, it just doesn't feel right
The AA, A, B does do a lot. At AA, North does have their own region. The number's of disticts just don't allign to equal out number of teams sent by each district, thus the rotation for A and B. There are many more teams at A and B then at AA. There are 4 districts that would be part of north, each year they send a district outside of the north region which gives the north the opportunity to send teams to state from multiple regions. Fair chance at state does exist. Again, Virgina did not lose to the mega associations, but small assocations from the metro area... The grip is that they lost to team from metro area. I didn't do the homework, but very confident the size of assocations are very similar between who won and who lost. How is it not just as important for a small metro assocation to go to state as it is for a team from up north. Not sure why where you are from makes a difference when it comes to regions. Districts are where you face the teams with closest proximity to you. Also I think this one instance is kind of a cherry pick. Look back over the past couple of years and many north teams have made it to state. The rotation makes it very fair in the fact that each year you are facing a different path, thus may be a stronger or weaker regional field. Send D6 up north three years running, then maybe you have a gripe, but until then, complaining it is not fair because you lost in OT to two small assocations, thus did not make it to state just does not fly with me.

This is nuts!
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Post by This is nuts! » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:00 pm

JSR wrote:
This is nuts! wrote:
JSR wrote:
This is nuts! wrote:
MWS coach wrote:Exactly Nuts! Each of these teams did have their shot at making state. It really shouldn't matter the geography of where each team is from. Win and you are in. Geography and who you play against should make no difference. Regions start with 32 teams and end up with 8 going to state, of the 24 teams that didn't make it many had close losses and many going to OT, but if they would have not had so and so in their region, then they might just have made it..... Teams from 11,12,15,16 get more opportunties as there are less teams in each district (in general) then the cities teams yet still send rotating 2-3 teams from each district, just like every other district. Each district rotates on a predetermined basis. How can this not be fair? The only issue I see is the regions are named by geography which they don't actually represent.

The thinking that a "north" team should always make it no matter the results on the ice is the same as thinking a D6 team should automatically make it because it is generally the strongest district and pays the most in MN Hockey fee's due to having the largest number of participants.
Thx, northern teams need realize that metro teams want to make it to state just as bad as they do.. They are all just kids that have the same dream. And
they have tough road to get there.. Maybe even tougher as they often have to get thru the perennial juggernauts in their districts just to get to the regional tourny. Most metro teams feel its a huge accomplishment just to go to regions.. The north is taking it a step further and demanding a state spot.. Really?

I thought it was great to watching closely contested region games between the north and metro teams. What an experience for all the kids regardless of where u are from.. Hell, if Warroad beats park and virginia wins u have 3 northern teams in the tourny to include Alexandria.. Just win and you re in.. Maybe next year it goes that way.. That's the Beauty of it.

We live in a world of entitlement .. I m sorry but it sounds like whining. Take it for what it is. Earn your spot. Instead of telling your kids they got screwed cuz you weren't just given a spot. Tell them great game we need to get
better.

When my kids complain about playing time. I tell them to get better. Most parents hug them and blame the coach and scream foul cuz of politics. I tell my them to earn their time.. North teams earn your spot! You have good teams you just lost close games.
Nuts, I hate the "enmtitlement" whining in our societya s much as anyone, but I honestly do not think that is what this is. I think you have to earn a state title but you also have to grow the game EVERYWHERE at the youth level. The reality is that have true "regions" gives kdis something realistic to strive for and work for. When you give the metro area even more shots at state by putting metro teams into northern regions you squash many associations realistic ability to ever make state, in turn you squash the desire for many to consinute to participate. I don't disagree with "earning your spot" but you have to earn it once you are there and you also have to keep the dream alive to keep people participating, or else you go down a slippery slope. Is a future where the only hockey teams left in MN reside in the metro area really the road you want taken? I know that is extreme but it's not far from reality when you keep digging into the knickers of outstate associations....
I get why it's good to grow the game everywhere. I always root for the northern teams in the state tourny. But there are 100's of metro and out state teams that never even get a chance at a region spot much less a state spot because of their numbers. State tourny is a special honor not to given away. It's to to earned.

I don't think we would be going down a slippery slope either. I sure hope a northern program doesn't fold cuz they lose a tough region championship game and don't make the state tourny. Those programs will fold when they no longer have the numbers to make a team. Grad classes of 80 or less, say half being boys. They have sustained for 80 plus years both making the tourny and not making it.

Look at luverne. They r as far south as u can get and they r making some noise in regions and state.. What a story. They earned it, didn't ask for it. Growing the game is also growing it in the metro, it's nice to see different metro teams that are making their first appearance in the tourny.. Great stories as well.

All teams/areas should get an opportunity at regions. From there u need to make some hay. I watched great games in regions between northern and metro teams, games could of went either way. Maybe next year there are several north teams in tourny.

For instance peewee A. If you don't think its good for hockey to have Farmington, Armstrong, Spring Lake Park, Sartell in the tourny your crazy. All names you normally don't see. Being in the tourny is huge for those programs that are just trying to sustain itself.

Kids are kids regardless of where you are from.. They all have the dream and all have an opportunity..
Agree to disagree. I still think there is something "good" about keeping actual regional matchups alive. Our state high school tournaments all do it that way and no one has an issue with the traditional way of doing it, our youth hockey does it that way for our state tourney and no one dislikes it, not sure why youth hockey up there is bucking the trend. To me this is like having Superior, WI going against a Madison, WI team in a regional playdown to get to state, makes no sense at all IMHO. Once you get to state and are one of the 8 teams there you still have to win three games to win the title so no one, not even in my scenario, is "given" a trophy, but I still think it's the right thing to make it regional. Are some regions going to be alot tougher than others, yep, but atleast it's a state title and not just a northern title, or a metro title or whatever.... What I don;t egt is I would have thought the fact tha you have a AA, an A and a B1 state tourney and the associations can designate the level they play at that season, then why doesn't this solve some of the issues of the "haves" vs "have nots" and the ability to get to state, I would think keeping traditional regions with logical borders intact combined with the level designation would give everyone a fair chance at state, why even the need for these random "nonregional" matchups prior to state???? ..... I get what you are saying and you have some valid points but I still disagree with it, it just doesn't feel right
I here ya. There is not a perfect way. But hockey is ever evolving. It's not the same today as it was 50 years ago. And it will be different 50 years from now. Can't plz everyone. The part I m hung up on is hearing from the north over and over that They "should be able to have a chance." They had great chances in championship games.. That's all.

Frankly I could care less. We play for a small association where if we make it to regions is giant accomplishment. Maybe that's why this doesn't sit well.

sagard
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:47 pm

Post by sagard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:20 am

It appears Virginia fields one team playing at the A level. Highland and Tartan whom they lost to in regions each field four teams, with the highest being the A level.

I'm guessing they should direct their anger at their district. The AA regions stayed true north, why sell out the lower levels.

bestgameever
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:31 am

Post by bestgameever » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:10 am

Congratulations to Highland for winning the Bantam A state title. They beat two mega assoc in Edina and Wayzata. Wayzata out shot them 25-12 and carried most of the play in the championship... The Highland goalie was a difference maker. Though a team effort for sure!

Highland is a smaller assoc and have won a total of three championships... Two of them yesterday (peewee A also won). Congrats to them and Wayzata for a great run this season!

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