Mounds View and Irondale Co-op

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The Exiled One
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Mounds View and Irondale Co-op

Post by The Exiled One » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:14 am

http://focus.mnsun.com/2014/08/14/youth ... be-reborn/

Irondale had a decent bantam A team last year but they relied on a co-op with St. Francis to pull it off. Will a full, all-age-level, (apparently) permanent co-op with Mounds View make this association relevant again?

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:33 pm

What district will they play in.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:23 pm

old goalie85 wrote:What district will they play in.
The girls' co-op played D2 last year. I believe the whole co-op's plan is to do the same.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:27 pm

AA or A ?

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:26 am

old goalie85 wrote:AA or A ?
The boys will be playing A. There's the general feeling they don't have the players to compete at AA.

Goaliedad1
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Post by Goaliedad1 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:49 am

Here we again MN Hockey letting two AA associations merg and play down at the A level, why? Irondale and St. Francis did that last season at the Bantam A level. Both were AA associations and almost went to the Bantam A state tournament. They should be playing AA hockey. Why have A and AA hockey when associations are not playing by the rules?

Bluewhitefan
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Post by Bluewhitefan » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:12 am

Goaliedad1 wrote:Here we again MN Hockey letting two AA associations merg and play down at the A level, why? Irondale and St. Francis did that last season at the Bantam A level. Both were AA associations and almost went to the Bantam A state tournament. They should be playing AA hockey. Why have A and AA hockey when associations are not playing by the rules?
How are they not playing by the rules? The rules state that you can petition to move down. I don't think a MV/Irondale co-op will change the balance of power at BA.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:46 am

The single A programs in D2 makes it tough for an assc. like Forest Lake to "go" AA/A/B1/B2/C. At Pee-Wees this was the plan. Not sure that would be a good idea now. Our kids would get crushed every game. Lake Region/Roseville?Highland/Maht/ top teams then you have WBL/Stillwater 2nd teams. Would be a long year.

DrGaf
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Post by DrGaf » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:01 am

jg2112 wrote:
old goalie85 wrote:AA or A ?
The boys will be playing A. There's the general feeling they don't have the players to compete at AA.
Who cares, makes them irrelevant in high school. Short term glory for long term failure. IMHO
Sorry, fresh out, Don't Really Give Any.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:59 pm

DrGaf wrote:
jg2112 wrote:
old goalie85 wrote:AA or A ?
The boys will be playing A. There's the general feeling they don't have the players to compete at AA.
Who cares, makes them irrelevant in high school. Short term glory for long term failure. IMHO
Serious question. How does it make them irrelevant?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand why playing single A curses them at the high school level.

I saw MV's varsity coach last spring state in LPH that 15 MV-eligible kids played varsity at schools other than MV. Isn't that a bigger problem?

DrGaf
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Post by DrGaf » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:15 pm

jg2112 wrote:
DrGaf wrote:
jg2112 wrote:
old goalie85 wrote:AA or A ?
The boys will be playing A. There's the general feeling they don't have the players to compete at AA.
Who cares, makes them irrelevant in high school. Short term glory for long term failure. IMHO
Serious question. How does it make them irrelevant?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand why playing single A curses them at the high school level.

I saw MV's varsity coach last spring state in LPH that 15 MV-eligible kids played varsity at schools other than MV. Isn't that a bigger problem?
IMHO ...

A school that is going to compete at the AA level in high school needs to compete at the AA level regardless of their talent pool. Otherwise you are growing a group of players that has never played at the highest level available. It would be training kids to play at a certain level where as the rest of the district is training to play at a higher level. However, if you are an A level high-school ... then play A level.

that's my .02 anyways.

Regarding the second part of your question ... sure, whatever. I don't know. Sounds like a MV hockey program problem to me. Most likely starts at the top. Just guessing, I'm not even sure how to get to Mounds View.
Sorry, fresh out, Don't Really Give Any.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:31 pm

combined??? A ?

The Exiled One
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Post by The Exiled One » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:47 am

DrGaf wrote:
jg2112 wrote:
old goalie85 wrote:AA or A ?
The boys will be playing A. There's the general feeling they don't have the players to compete at AA.
Who cares, makes them irrelevant in high school. Short term glory for long term failure. IMHO
If participation doesn't pick up, there won't be enough players to support two separate varsity HS teams in the same school district. My assumption is that neither HS wants to be forced to merge. The hypothesis is likely that the co-op will improve the youth hockey experience, which will improve participation and retention, which will give the HS's better numbers to draw from, which will mean they can remain separate and be somewhat successful. Only time will tell.

irish skater
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Post by irish skater » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:09 am

Goaliedad1 wrote:Here we again MN Hockey letting two AA associations merg and play down at the A level, why? Irondale and St. Francis did that last season at the Bantam A level. Both were AA associations and almost went to the Bantam A state tournament. They should be playing AA hockey. Why have A and AA hockey when associations are not playing by the rules?
What exactly determines if it's an A or AA association? Last year MV fielded two bantam teams each having two lines. Are you saying they should have to play AA? Also, MV and Irondale are both part of the Mounds View School District. If you don't have the numbers, why wouldn't you merge?

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Post by irish skater » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:49 pm

Thought this might be helpful.

"Associations may request a change in their classification, regardless of size. Requests can be made to move up or down. Association classification must be the same for both the Bantam and PeeWee level.

· All requests for classification change must be received no later than October 6th, 2012.

· All requests will be carefully considered and final determination made by the Minnesota Hockey Competition Committee.

· Please note, the “AA” classification is solely for Regional and State Tournament purposes.

“AA” Regional/State Tournament teams are still considered “A” teams during the regular season."


AA and A teams play each other all the time. I don't think all the A players will be overwhelmed when they get into high school like you think they will.

Overall, wouldn't you want your kids in a situation where they can compete? Or, because their numbers are low and they have a big high school, the association should be forced to play AA? That's terrible. Put your kids in a position where they can compete. I don't think anyone with half a brain would think the new co-op with MV and Irondale has created a super power.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:58 am

Just a shame what has happened to those two assc. Will they be forced to combine @ highschool ??

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Post by jg2112 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:30 am

old goalie85 wrote:Just a shame what has happened to those two assc. Will they be forced to combine @ highschool ??
It is a possibility. I would argue it's more possible on the girls' side than the boys.

There are a total of 26 or so U11 and U12 female skaters in the Association (a few more MV girls than Irondale), and if you have a look at their results, they haven't had a good first month. Neither team has reported a win, the A team has scored 1 goal in four games, and the B team has scored 2 and given up about 70 so far in 6 games.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:05 pm

Well both Pee-wees and bantams went to regions. How surprising :roll: :roll:

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Post by Bleed Maroon and Gold » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:16 am

And the B1 bantams are the only team that made it to state our of Regions. Plus you look at what the A bantam team did in districts to get to regions they were a decent fit in the A group and would have had a hard time with the AA's.

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Post by MWS coach » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:42 am

I tend to agree with the good Dr. which is a flaw of the system. If you are a AA HS based upon enrollment, playing anything other than the highest level puts the players in a position where it will be very difficult to succeed once they reach the HS level. Thus the flaw, you can't opt down once these teams reach the HS level. This is not only MVI, but many other association/HS teams. Champlin Park. Coon Rapids, St. Francis to name a few others. Don't play AA consistently at youth, but are AA HS which result in non competitive teams at the HS level.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:40 am

Tarten goes to state every year w/this pee-wee group @ A. They are a AA highj school. I don't think that is why Mn hockey came up w/this program. I think it was meant to allow the North Branches of the world the chance to go to state.MV/I two AA's that is crazy. I doubt the Mn hockey board sat down and said would't it be great if two AA highschool programs co-opted and then opted down so they could go to regions. They should have stayed apart and went B1.

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Post by The Exiled One » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:44 am

Yes, there was a little success this season, but I don't think that you can chalk that up to roster loading or improper declarations. The co-op only had enough bantams to fill four rosters and they have an A team, a B1 team, a B2 team, and a C team. Within District 2, they finished 4th, 4th, 4th, and 9th respectively. Pee-wees had an A team, two B1 teams, a B2 team, and two C teams. None of them dominated but the A team had a good playoff run. Look up and down all levels of District 2 and you'll see MVI is in the middle just about everywhere. That's appropriate declaration, not roster stuffing.

Yes, Irondale HS and Mounds View HS are AA sized schools, but participation is terrible. Neither school may have a JV team next season. Also, the varsity teams definitely won't be combining next season. There's talk about adding a junior gold team or two so the kids have somewhere to play.

The co-op has been hugely successful in creating better balanced teams, which has helped make SOME of the teams a bit more competitive. That's not the point of the co-op though. The co-op is an effort to boost participation and stem defections to AAA programs and private high schools. We can't determine if that was successful until we see if the larger pee-wee group makes it to HS with enough numbers for two varsity and two JV teams. That's a good three or four years from now.

EDIT: Oh, and I should mention that some folks at the school district ARE pushing for a HS co-op. That's obviously partly driven by poor participation, but also partly driven by a desire to be competitive. MSHSL already put the kabosh on that for next year. There are plenty of folks who would prefer they remain separate for reasons of tradition and opportunity even if that means both teams are terrible for years to come. I'm in that camp. I'd rather give the kids a chance to play varsity for a bad team than get cut from a mediocre team. I realize that probably incentivizes some of the better kids to seek greener pastures, but we'll see what we can do.
Last edited by The Exiled One on Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MrBoDangles » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:49 am

I vote OG85 as dictator overMinnesota Hockey! Great to see some common sense when it seems to be so lacking out there..

My traditional :idea: stamp awarded!

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:23 pm

The Exiled One wrote:Yes, there was a little success this season, but I don't think that you can chalk that up to roster loading or improper declarations. The co-op only had enough bantams to fill four rosters and they have an A team, a B1 team, a B2 team, and a C team. Within District 2, they finished 4th, 4th, 4th, and 9th respectively. Pee-wees had an A team, two B1 teams, a B2 team, and two C teams. None of them dominated but the A team had a good playoff run. Look up and down all levels of District 2 and you'll see MVI is in the middle just about everywhere. That's appropriate declaration, not roster stuffing.

Yes, Irondale HS and Mounds View HS are AA sized schools, but participation is terrible. Neither school may have a JV team next season. Also, the varsity teams definitely won't be combining next season. There's talk about adding a junior gold team or two so the kids have somewhere to play.

The co-op has been hugely successful in creating better balanced teams, which has helped make SOME of the teams a bit more competitive. That's not the point of the co-op though. The co-op is an effort to boost participation and stem defections to AAA programs and private high schools. We can't determine if that was successful until we see if the larger pee-wee group makes it to HS with enough numbers for two varsity and two JV teams. That's a good three or four years from now.

EDIT: Oh, and I should mention that some folks at the school district ARE pushing for a HS co-op. That's obviously partly driven by poor participation, but also partly driven by a desire to be competitive. MSHSL already put the kabosh on that for next year. There are plenty of folks who would prefer they remain separate for reasons of tradition and opportunity even if that means both teams are terrible for years to come. I'm in that camp. I'd rather give the kids a chance to play varsity for a bad team than get cut from a mediocre team. I realize that probably incentivizes some of the better kids to seek greener pastures, but we'll see what we can do.
All fair points and they do make sense. I would note the boys' merger did a lot more to equalize competitiveness than the girls' co-op (this year's girls results are not too good). But the boys have done rather well across the board this year.

The only thing I would contest in your note is that I don't think the merger is going to stop the defections. MV / I is one of the largest feeders of the MN Made Choice League, and the indication is that trend is going to continue in the 2015/16 season. A lack of ice time is one of the main drivers of the defections.

jpiehl
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Post by jpiehl » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:33 pm

The Exiled One wrote:Yes, there was a little success this season, but I don't think that you can chalk that up to roster loading or improper declarations. The co-op only had enough bantams to fill four rosters and they have an A team, a B1 team, a B2 team, and a C team. Within District 2, they finished 4th, 4th, 4th, and 9th respectively. Pee-wees had an A team, two B1 teams, a B2 team, and two C teams. None of them dominated but the A team had a good playoff run. Look up and down all levels of District 2 and you'll see MVI is in the middle just about everywhere. That's appropriate declaration, not roster stuffing.

Yes, Irondale HS and Mounds View HS are AA sized schools, but participation is terrible. Neither school may have a JV team next season. Also, the varsity teams definitely won't be combining next season. There's talk about adding a junior gold team or two so the kids have somewhere to play.

The co-op has been hugely successful in creating better balanced teams, which has helped make SOME of the teams a bit more competitive. That's not the point of the co-op though. The co-op is an effort to boost participation and stem defections to AAA programs and private high schools. We can't determine if that was successful until we see if the larger pee-wee group makes it to HS with enough numbers for two varsity and two JV teams. That's a good three or four years from now.

EDIT: Oh, and I should mention that some folks at the school district ARE pushing for a HS co-op. That's obviously partly driven by poor participation, but also partly driven by a desire to be competitive. MSHSL already put the kabosh on that for next year. There are plenty of folks who would prefer they remain separate for reasons of tradition and opportunity even if that means both teams are terrible for years to come. I'm in that camp. I'd rather give the kids a chance to play varsity for a bad team than get cut from a mediocre team. I realize that probably incentivizes some of the better kids to seek greener pastures, but we'll see what we can do.
I just think it is funny to see someone actively defending not playing at AA when they can field 4 Bantam and 6 PeeWee teams. Things must be awful in Roseau...

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