Tier 1 in MN

[MrBoDangles]

Most know where the ideas came from...

I just find it funny how Minnesota Hockey revamps all their "words to live by" when a little (YHH.. Etc) competition shows up..

Glad to be of service!

[old goalie85]

I was wondering where you were !

[MrBoDangles]

I was wondering where you were !

Mom said you guys were a bad influence...

[fidelis]

Hello Elliot,

Would you be able to explain how this relates to B. Emerson and the Revolution Hockey Program (REV) who played Tier 1 this past season?

More specifically:

Based on what was published by MN Hockey, my understanding of their resolution is that REV teams would not be permitted to play Tier 1 in-season nor participate in the National Champions. Is this correct?

Is a resolution coming regarding Tier II hockey? If so, will REV be permitted to participate in-season and in Nationals?

Finally, I've heard rumblings the Thoroughbreds may be folding. How would MN Hockey handle the REV organization assuming/purchasing their charter agreement?

Thanks in advance for your time!

(To be sure, my kids do not attend B Emerson or play for the REV. However, I know families who do and obviously whether or not they are going to enroll and pay tuition hinges on these questions.)

[SCBlueLiner]

Curious about this as well because I could have sworn I saw ads/brochure for B-E/Revolution Tier 1 hockey for this upcoming season on the bulletin board at Vadnais Ice. Just made a quick check of their website and it appears they are planning on fielding teams.

Just a side note, spillover from another thread, I see the Revolution are planning on fielding squirt and pee wee teams that will compete at the A level in MN Hockey. Brings me to the thread on here about Duluth Marshall wanting to field a Bantam A team. Looks like MN Hockey has said you can field a team based on school affiliation and not geographical boundaries.

[Froggy Richards]

Just a side note, spillover from another thread, I see the Revolution are planning on fielding squirt and pee wee teams that will compete at the A level in MN Hockey. Brings me to the thread on here about Duluth Marshall wanting to field a Bantam A team. Looks like MN Hockey has said you can field a team based on school affiliation and not geographical boundaries.

That's because they are competing within the North St. Paul Hockey Assocation. They are not on their own. Which is why Marshall needs DAHA, absent a separate ruling from MN Hockey.

[fidelis]

It appears the Thoroughbreds affiliate agreement was officially revoked during the Annual meeting on April 19th. (see meeting minutes). The minutes mention a "business group" was attempting to purchase the Thoroughbreds in an effort to assume their affiliate agreement. Point is now mute.

According to the resolution approved by MN Hockey on Jan 25th, REV will not be able to play in-season Tier 1 nor participate in the National Championships.

With that said, I do believe REV is advertising they will be playing Tier 1 in 2015-16 and has required current families to already pay their tuition if they want a discount. If the REV will not be allowed to play Tier 1, shouldn't MN Hockey get the word out or be contacting the MN Attorney General to take action? Considering MN Hockey still has their Tier 1 Definitions committee in place and isn't publicly stating it's position with the REV, it hints that maybe their January resolution won't be in place come September. Inquiring minds want to know.

Then there is the Tier II topic which has not been touched upon (at least publicly). Will the REV be offered a Tier II affiliate agreement? If so, what will be the rationale to offer one level of play but not the other?

The negotiations with REV (and possibly other similarly situated groups) seems less then transparent. It's essential that the families involved hear from MN Hockey and not just the REV brass.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Didn't they already play Tier 1 this year, up to and including nationals at some levels? Confusing.

[fidelis]

Here is a copy of the email I sent Dave Margenau today. I sincerely hope MN Hockey provides some clarity for these families.

***************************

Hello Dave,

I have friends involved in the Revolution program. The families currently enrolled and ones considering the program really need MN Hockey's help.

Revolution is enticing families to register and commit tuition now in order to play Tier 1 hockey next season.

Although this is at odds with MN Hockey's January resolution, the conflicting statements which families are being told by Revolution leadership leaves the subject clear as mud.

It's important to MN families, both emotionally and financially, that MN Hockey explicitly state whether the Revolution will be granted an affiliate agreement to play Tier 1 or Tier 2 hockey (whether in-season or national champions only).

With the deadline approaching for Revolution families to pay a tuition deposit - time is of the essence. Without a clear message from MN Hockey regarding the Revolutions status - it's the kids, not the Revolution brass, who ultimately be negatively impacted.

Thanks in advance for your help.

~Todd
(To be sure, my children do not and will not attend BE/Revolution.)

[Froggy Richards]

Here is a copy of the email I sent Dave Margenau today. I sincerely hope MN Hockey provides some clarity for these families.

***************************

Hello Dave,

I have friends involved in the Revolution program. The families currently enrolled and ones considering the program really need MN Hockey's help.

Revolution is enticing families to register and commit tuition now in order to play Tier 1 hockey next season.

Although this is at odds with MN Hockey's January resolution, the conflicting statements which families are being told by Revolution leadership leaves the subject clear as mud.

It's important to MN families, both emotionally and financially, that MN Hockey explicitly state whether the Revolution will be granted an affiliate agreement to play Tier 1 or Tier 2 hockey (whether in-season or national champions only).

With the deadline approaching for Revolution families to pay a tuition deposit - time is of the essence. Without a clear message from MN Hockey regarding the Revolutions status - it's the kids, not the Revolution brass, who ultimately be negatively impacted.

Thanks in advance for your help.

~Todd
(To be sure, my children do not and will not attend BE/Revolution.)

If Revolution is telling the families they're playing Tier 1, then why can't they take their word for it?

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Here is a copy of the email I sent Dave Margenau today. I sincerely hope MN Hockey provides some clarity for these families.

***************************

Hello Dave,

I have friends involved in the Revolution program. The families currently enrolled and ones considering the program really need MN Hockey's help.

Revolution is enticing families to register and commit tuition now in order to play Tier 1 hockey next season.

Although this is at odds with MN Hockey's January resolution, the conflicting statements which families are being told by Revolution leadership leaves the subject clear as mud.

It's important to MN families, both emotionally and financially, that MN Hockey explicitly state whether the Revolution will be granted an affiliate agreement to play Tier 1 or Tier 2 hockey (whether in-season or national champions only).

With the deadline approaching for Revolution families to pay a tuition deposit - time is of the essence. Without a clear message from MN Hockey regarding the Revolutions status - it's the kids, not the Revolution brass, who ultimately be negatively impacted.

Thanks in advance for your help.

~Todd
(To be sure, my children do not and will not attend BE/Revolution.)

If Revolution is telling the families they're playing Tier 1, then why can't they take their word for it?

See also - 2013-2014 girls hockey team having to forfeit entire season only days away from a likely state tournament entry?

[elliott70]

Hello Elliot,

Would you be able to explain how this relates to B. Emerson and the Revolution Hockey Program (REV) who played Tier 1 this past season?

More specifically:

Based on what was published by MN Hockey, my understanding of their resolution is that REV teams would not be permitted to play Tier 1 in-season nor participate in the National Champions. Is this correct?

Is a resolution coming regarding Tier II hockey? If so, will REV be permitted to participate in-season and in Nationals?

Finally, I've heard rumblings the Thoroughbreds may be folding. How would MN Hockey handle the REV organization assuming/purchasing their charter agreement?

Thanks in advance for your time!

(To be sure, my kids do not attend B Emerson or play for the REV. However, I know families who do and obviously whether or not they are going to enroll and pay tuition hinges on these questions.)

Although Tier 1 is not finalized, my understanding is national participation will come down to the new MH champ vs. Shattuck.

Nothing on Tier 2 at this point in time.

T-Birds are down as far as I know.

[elliott70]

With all the questions about the MH tier 1 program not being finalized is why I voted against it in January.

It may be a good concept, but all the answers (all the possible questions) were not addressed.

[JSR]

With all the questions about the MH tier 1 program not being finalized is why I voted against it in January.

It may be a good concept, but all the answers (all the possible questions) were not addressed.

Just curious on why you think that is. I mean Tier 1 nationally has been around forever. Before and After are a major part of the landscape. MN has Schattuck and they even had a pilot program of Tier 1 before and after this past season with a few teams. Why would all the questions (and answers) still not be known?

[elliott70]

With all the questions about the MH tier 1 program not being finalized is why I voted against it in January.

It may be a good concept, but all the answers (all the possible questions) were not addressed.

Just curious on why you think that is. I mean Tier 1 nationally has been around forever. Before and After are a major part of the landscape. MN has Schattuck and they even had a pilot program of Tier 1 before and after this past season with a few teams. Why would all the questions (and answers) still not be known?

The questions and answers revolving around how this program will be run, how it will affect the other programs that were going to be run or are being run....
Perhaps you should read everything again.

[nu2hockey]

With all the questions about the MH tier 1 program not being finalized is why I voted against it in January.

It may be a good concept, but all the answers (all the possible questions) were not addressed.

Just curious on why you think that is. I mean Tier 1 nationally has been around forever. Before and After are a major part of the landscape. MN has Schattuck and they even had a pilot program of Tier 1 before and after this past season with a few teams. Why would all the questions (and answers) still not be known?

The questions and answers revolving around how this program will be run, how it will affect the other programs that were going to be run or are being run....
Perhaps you should read everything again.

More importantly, why would you even take a vote? Shelve the question until any and all unknowns are clarified. Proper Stewardship would dictate such action.

[Froggy Richards]

05/08/2015, 8:00pm CDT

By Minnesota Hockey

Minnesota Hockey Seeking Tier 1 Committee Chair.

Following a resolution passed by the Minnesota Hockey Board of Directors to adopt a framework and definition of Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota in January, a Minnesota Hockey committee will be established to oversee the Minnesota Tier 1 offering.

The committee chair is an appointed position and expected to be in place by the end of May, with the rest of the committee in place in time for Minnesota Hockey’s Board of Directors meeting on June 28. The responsibilities of the chair are outlined in the attached position description. Individuals interested in chairing the Tier 1 committee should indicate their interest to Minnesota Hockey President, Dave Margenau along with submitting a short resume of qualifications by May 29, 2015.

Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota will be limited to the following age classifications for which USA Hockey conducts National Championships: 14U Youth/Girls, 16U Youth/Girls, 18U Youth and 19U Girls. The teams will compete in late summer and fall, prior to the start of the Minnesota Hockey and Minnesota State High School League seasons, after which the players would return to their associations or high school teams. The framework has been endorsed by USA Hockey’s Youth Council.

Minnesota Hockey has engaged in discussions with the leadership of the Upper Midwest Elite League, the Prep Development League and the Girls Premier Prep League in which the Minnesota Hockey Tier 1 teams will participate. It is the intent that those Leagues would be responsible for Tier 1 league operations at the Girls 19U, Youth 18U, Girls 16U and Youth 16U levels. These offerings will be available beginning this summer as they have in past years. Players interested in participating should contact these leagues directly.

For the 2015-16 season the Youth 16U and 18U league winners in the fall will advance to the USA Hockey Minnesota District playoffs in the spring upon the conclusion of the high school season to advance to the USA Hockey National Championship. The Girls 16U and 19U league playoff winners will advance directly to the USA Hockey 2016 National Championship to be held in Blaine. For the 2016-17 season the USA Hockey Minnesota District playoffs to advance to the National Championship will be conducted in the fall.

The 14U Youth/Girls offerings will not be in place until next season. The goal of the committee will be to have the complete Tier 1 offering in place for the 2016-17 season.

Further details regarding teams, scheduling and organization will be announced at a later date.

[SCBlueLiner]

Seems clear to me the Revolution is done, at Tier 1 anyways.

[Lace'emUp]

Seems clear to me the Revolution is done, at Tier 1 anyways.

Along with that, it's quoted:
"Minnesota Hockey has engaged in discussions with the leadership of the Upper Midwest Elite League, the Prep Development League and the Girls Premier Prep League in which the Minnesota Hockey Tier 1 teams will participate. It is the intent that those Leagues would be responsible for Tier 1 league operations at the Girls 19U, Youth 18U, Girls 16U and Youth 16U levels."

On the girls side of things, the Elite League is where the top end talent plays in the fall. Tryouts are invite only. The Premier Prep League has good talent, but is not the same level as the Elite League. Tryouts are "open" for Premier Prep. That being the case, why is MNH "engaged" with both leagues? Is it to be fair to the folks who administer (own) each league, in the sense that both could become more equal competition for each other? Neither league has posted any Tier 1 information news on their websites.

Lastly, as mentioned, this does not resolve the status of the Revolution, Magicians, Blades, or whomever else wants to be thrown into the mix. If the Revolution and others are on the outside looking in, what are the chances they pack-up their bags and move further east into Hudson? See page 46 and 47 from the WI Guide/Rule Book:

http://www.wahahockey.com/scripts/2014%20Guidebook.pdf

"WAHA will accept approved players from another state who wish to play in Wisconsin because the state in which they reside does not offer a program similar to those offered in Wisconsin."

Though Tier 1 is offered in MN, it is not offered the whole season. Thus, couldn't the Revolution open up across the border and take on a flood of waivers from MN kids who want the full Tier 1 experience? MN would have to grant the waiver to someone first, which I'm sure will not happen. Don't need the waiver though if families "move" into a Hudson apartment.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

This is completely confusing.
I'm clearly not an Achiever/BE proponent, but I disagree that an option like this can be withheld or in this case recinded by the powers that be at MN Hockey. So if MN Hockey can hand pick teams and then take the best one to nationals, why can't another program handpick a team to compete at nationals? By not allowing this MN Hockey creates a monopoly of talent in their own programs, and by limiting numbers, they've capped development overall! There were Rev teams in the Elite league last fall, and this spring already we've seen the 16s play together and some 19s fill in on other teams. Not every player at BE is going to make HP, Elites, etc. So now you've comprised their entire business and developmental model? I can't believe I'm advocating for the old Achiever, but it think this statement of what MN Hockey is planning in regards to Tier 1 is short sighted and honestly, probably not entirely legal.
Am I crazy? Isn't this crazy???

And the elephant in the forum. They let Shattuck stay as is under some grandfathered in clause, or is that program also getting forced to its knees?

[SCBlueLiner]

From the original release:

As part of the proposal, provisions will be made for in-season Tier 1 hockey to be allowed for Minnesota’s established legacy programs: Shattuck St. Mary’s and Thoroughbreds girls’ hockey.

Reads pretty clear to me the only Tier 1 full season programs will be those two entities.

Limiting the number of organizations with Tier 1 status isn't just a Minnesota Hockey deal, every affiiate in the country does it. Wisconsin, Illinois, Midwest, South Dakota, etc. etc. They are perfectly within their rights to govern Tier 1 the way they have decided.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

"Within their rights" until those rights are challenged. The Tier 1 program in Duluth like 4-5 years ago had to fight it through the legal system, but they won. I imagine BE has an even bigger wallet to fight this battle.

So where do the Rev teams play this year?

[BluehawkHockey]

I don't think they play in Minnesota at all. They would certainly encounter closer scrutiny of their players if they played in the MSHSL. Tier 1 is realistically not an option for them in MN anymore.

Remember, they were only given provisional one year permission to run a Tier 1 program in Minnesota by Minnesota Hockey last year. That permission was given so that Minnesota Hockey could develop a plan for Tier 1 in Minnesota. With them now having a plan, all the other Tier 1 programs except Shattuck and Thoroughbreds girls, are likely finished.

Could Minnesota Hockey be sued, of course. But they made it clear last year that it was only for 1 year. Any group suing them would likely also need to sue USA Hockey because MN Hockey is following USA Hockey rules and has the right to control Tier 1 programs in their area.

I'd like to see one or two other year round options for Tier 1 in Minnesota, I just don't think it will happen.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

I don't think they play in Minnesota at all. They would certainly encounter closer scrutiny of their players if they played in the MSHSL. Tier 1 is realistically not an option for them in MN anymore.

Remember, they were only given provisional one year permission to run a Tier 1 program in Minnesota by Minnesota Hockey last year. That permission was given so that Minnesota Hockey could develop a plan for Tier 1 in Minnesota. With them now having a plan, all the other Tier 1 programs except Shattuck and Thoroughbreds girls, are likely finished.

Could Minnesota Hockey be sued, of course. But they made it clear last year that it was only for 1 year. Any group suing them would likely also need to sue USA Hockey because MN Hockey is following USA Hockey rules and has the right to control Tier 1 programs in their area.

I'd like to see one or two other year round options for Tier 1 in Minnesota, I just don't think it will happen.

That makes sense. But what about what happened in Duluth? That wasn't provisional. And now MN Hockey backtracking on that precedent?

So Rev will play only outstate?
And what about the people complaining about BE players having unfair advantage in competing in HP and similar programs because of their training model?

More questions than answers.

[CHI-TOWN HOCKEYDAD]

Quote from thread: http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=33595

......This time I'm sympathetic to your cause but if MN Hockey wants, they can take away your Tier 1 status as easily as they granted it. But, if they continue grant Tier 1 to Revolution then you must agree that they should grant it to other programs that want it too.

The problem is that the United States Congress has granted the power to USA Hockey Inc. in the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act . Whether people want to call USA Hockey, Inc a monoply or not it is the sole organization charged by the U.S. government to control amateur hockey in the U.S.A. USA Hockey grants upon application affiliate memberships to the states which then controls amateur hockey within the state. Here, MN Hockey has the power granted by USA Hockey to decide what's the best for all of us. The only remaining question is how MN Hockey will treat other organizations other than themselves, Shattuck and the Thoroughbreds. If MN Hockey doesn't give BE Tier 1 status good luck on that lawsuit. My opinion- you will lose. You'd have a better chance of getting Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act repealed.