Article on over use

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greybeard58
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Article on over use

Post by greybeard58 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:40 am

While hockey is not mentioned,article has some good news and not so good.
https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/g ... g-athletes

jg2112
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Re: Article on over use

Post by jg2112 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:52 pm

greybeard58 wrote:While hockey is not mentioned,article has some good news and not so good.
https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/g ... g-athletes
This all makes sense.

Some young men and women have played over 100 hockey games since the beginning of the fall 2014 association season. It can't be good for the body or the psyche.

fastncrash
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Re: Article on over use

Post by fastncrash » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:10 am

jg2112 wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:While hockey is not mentioned,article has some good news and not so good.
https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/g ... g-athletes
This all makes sense.

Some young men and women have played over 100 hockey games since the beginning of the fall 2014 association season. It can't be good for the body or the psyche.
One of my Sons is in that 100+ games per year range... and I agree that it's NOT for everyone. However, too many games is not the issue in my mind, but how they spend/use the REST of their time. Cell phone's, Gaming, and "Social Media" ARE RUINING how these kids learn, grow, and interact with Society WAY more than playing too much Hockey.

jg2112
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Re: Article on over use

Post by jg2112 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:37 pm

fastncrash wrote:
jg2112 wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:While hockey is not mentioned,article has some good news and not so good.
https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/g ... g-athletes
This all makes sense.

Some young men and women have played over 100 hockey games since the beginning of the fall 2014 association season. It can't be good for the body or the psyche.
One of my Sons is in that 100+ games per year range... and I agree that it's NOT for everyone. However, too many games is not the issue in my mind, but how they spend/use the REST of their time. Cell phone's, Gaming, and "Social Media" ARE RUINING how these kids learn, grow, and interact with Society WAY more than playing too much Hockey.
True. I'd also contend that, depending on where our kids' hockey tourney games are, spending 10+ hours in the car each weekend going to games isn't the best way to spend time. It's one of the biggest reasons why I've cut back on my daughter's on-ice activities this summer. She probably gets as much benefit from running at the local school or playing roller hockey in front of the house as she does with that 15 minutes of ice time in a game.

yesiplayedhockey
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Post by yesiplayedhockey » Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:21 pm

I couldn't disagree more. If us as parents are trying to blame "video games" as the root of all evil then shame on us. Everything in moderation is just fine. I'm sure our parents yelled at us when we watched 3 hours of tv or listened to the whole Led Zeppelin album from start to finish versus going in the alley to play some more boot hockey. And look how we turned out...Oh wait we are on a hockey forum....

100 games is way to excessive. 3-4 hours of video games a day is way to excessive. 6 beers in between AAA games is way to excessive. But don't point blame and instead look in the mirror and start parenting. It's starts with just saying NO...no to more hockey, no to your kid wanting to buy yet another app and no when that hockey dad asks you if you want "one more"...

It rubs me the wrong way when we blame everything on everyone else yet aren't we the ones that are suppose to be in charge of what are kid does or doesn't do? Stop blaming coaches, refs, video games...Stop trying to keep up with the Jones...Just say No...Can't it be as simple as that?

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:00 am

This is not published research in a medical journal; it is another pop article written by a guy that cites one or two lines of a doctor's article and maybe includes an interview quote or two, but mostly fills in with his own editorial copy.

It's a little unclear whether the article is saying there are more ACL tears, or more surgeries to repair ACL tears. He says 12 year olds shouldn't have Tommy John surgery, but how many, if any, are having it.

High school kids were having knee surgeries 30 years ago. For 40 or 50 years, 14 year old boys were getting moved to first base after 'throwing their arms out' in little league. Athletes suffer injuries.

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:28 am

I get what the studies are saying but c'mon. Playing too much organized hockey = bad. Spending 4 hours after school playing pond hockey with the neighborhood kids every day after school = ahhh, the good old days. Not once have I heard anyone say anything bad about kids playing on their own, whether it be pickup hockey, baseball, basketball, football, etc, yet those kids are still "overusing" their bodies by playing pick-up sports for hours on end.

Personally, I do think 100 games in a season is excessive because it is a grind that kills the passion. Always need to leave something in the tank, something to keep the fire burning. I also think it is ironic that we demonize the structured activity and glorify the unstructured activity, yet, in the end, the hours spent playing are the same.

Here is the truth. There are some families that just go, go, go when it comes to a particular sport whether it is baseball, tennis, soccer, gymnastics, or hockey. There are other families that just want a sort of rec experience when it comes to playing a sport, and the rest of us are somewhere in between. What happens is everyone else sees these families that are "all in" on a sport, the kid excels at a young age and makes the top teams. The rest of us feel like our little player is going to get left behind, so instead of trying to keep up, or better yet, not worrying about it, we tend to scorn that sort of activity. We chastise the parents and make them out to be bad. Or we grudgingly join into the lifestyle, cursing all the way, because we feel we have to in order to keep up and give our player a chance. Then there are others, more the rec crowd, who get turned off by that lifestyle and their kid just drops out of the sport. USA Hockey sees its numbers drop, and subsequently its revenues from registration fees, and also comes out against that type of training and commitment to the sport. I've actually read in USA Hockey Magazine that the best way to become a good hockey player is to NOT play hockey and do something else. Okay, I get what they are saying, they want athletes, but it still was sort of strange reading that statement.

In the end it is all about money. USA Hockey wants to keep numbers up. They know that by catering to the recreation hockey crowd they can keep those parents happy and keep those kids in the game. They also know they can attract more potential players if they keep the commitment level to the sport to a minimum. Whether you are gung ho and play hockey 11 months out of the year, or you are a rec level player who plays for a couple months over the winter, your registration check to USA Hockey cashes the same. The talent that has always risen to the top will keep rising to the top and there will be plenty of players to choose from for the national teams. The local rinks want to keep the doors open. They need to sell ice time. Summer teams, camps, clinics, tournaments, and 3 on 3 leagues are aplenty. Hey, some guys even figure out they can make a living by being a youth hockey trainer.

My advice from living through the madness, just enjoy the ride and worry less about what someone else is doing and more about what is right for you and yours. When your kid hits puberty everything will change. For right now, we have baseball practice tonight and a couple games this weekend. Hope the weather is nice. We'll get a few hockey games in this summer, it'll be fun. I'll make sure I get a good seat and cheer the team on. In a few years it will all be over and I'll miss it.

JSR
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Post by JSR » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:37 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:I get what the studies are saying but c'mon. Playing too much organized hockey = bad. Spending 4 hours after school playing pond hockey with the neighborhood kids every day after school = ahhh, the good old days. Not once have I heard anyone say anything bad about kids playing on their own, whether it be pickup hockey, baseball, basketball, football, etc, yet those kids are still "overusing" their bodies by playing pick-up sports for hours on end.

Personally, I do think 100 games in a season is excessive because it is a grind that kills the passion. Always need to leave something in the tank, something to keep the fire burning. I also think it is ironic that we demonize the structured activity and glorify the unstructured activity, yet, in the end, the hours spent playing are the same.

Here is the truth. There are some families that just go, go, go when it comes to a particular sport whether it is baseball, tennis, soccer, gymnastics, or hockey. There are other families that just want a sort of rec experience when it comes to playing a sport, and the rest of us are somewhere in between. What happens is everyone else sees these families that are "all in" on a sport, the kid excels at a young age and makes the top teams. The rest of us feel like our little player is going to get left behind, so instead of trying to keep up, or better yet, not worrying about it, we tend to scorn that sort of activity. We chastise the parents and make them out to be bad. Or we grudgingly join into the lifestyle, cursing all the way, because we feel we have to in order to keep up and give our player a chance. Then there are others, more the rec crowd, who get turned off by that lifestyle and their kid just drops out of the sport. USA Hockey sees its numbers drop, and subsequently its revenues from registration fees, and also comes out against that type of training and commitment to the sport. I've actually read in USA Hockey Magazine that the best way to become a good hockey player is to NOT play hockey and do something else. Okay, I get what they are saying, they want athletes, but it still was sort of strange reading that statement.

In the end it is all about money. USA Hockey wants to keep numbers up. They know that by catering to the recreation hockey crowd they can keep those parents happy and keep those kids in the game. They also know they can attract more potential players if they keep the commitment level to the sport to a minimum. Whether you are gung ho and play hockey 11 months out of the year, or you are a rec level player who plays for a couple months over the winter, your registration check to USA Hockey cashes the same. The talent that has always risen to the top will keep rising to the top and there will be plenty of players to choose from for the national teams. The local rinks want to keep the doors open. They need to sell ice time. Summer teams, camps, clinics, tournaments, and 3 on 3 leagues are aplenty. Hey, some guys even figure out they can make a living by being a youth hockey trainer.

My advice from living through the madness, just enjoy the ride and worry less about what someone else is doing and more about what is right for you and yours. When your kid hits puberty everything will change. For right now, we have baseball practice tonight and a couple games this weekend. Hope the weather is nice. We'll get a few hockey games in this summer, it'll be fun. I'll make sure I get a good seat and cheer the team on. In a few years it will all be over and I'll miss it.
I guess I don't read it quite the same way. I think that 4 hours on the pond is great and playing hockey in a structured setting can also be great. However, the part you left out is in the "good old days" yes they spent hours upon hours on the pond in the winter but once winter was over the skates got hung up and it was on to something else. Likely baseball or soccer or football or lacrosse or whatever. The overuse injuries are not happening because kids spend 4 hours a day playing in the winter. It's because they are playing 365 days a year and never taking a break, that is going to cause physical and mental damage inevitably to anyone, that is proven in science not hyperbole. So whether you are an "all in" parent or just a rec parent I think it's important to realize that breaks are important and at younger ages playing other sports is also important to healthy development. That is not rhetoric or USA hockey trying to make money that has been proven by non-partisan doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists over and over again. I'd probably classify as an "all in" parent but that doesn't mean I can't understand the value of the message trying to be put across here. I don't agree with everything they say but I do believe in some of it that is fact based.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:31 pm

365 days a year might be just a bit of an exaggeration. A nice example of the facts used in the article.

And I'm sure the fact based articles proving this over and over again have been posted before, but I don't recall one. This particular article certainly isn't one of them.

JSR
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Post by JSR » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:02 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:365 days a year might be just a bit of an exaggeration. A nice example of the facts used in the article.

And I'm sure the fact based articles proving this over and over again have been posted before, but I don't recall one. This particular article certainly isn't one of them.
Yes, 365 is an exaggeration, I didn't think I had to say that, thought it was implied. However, it's not that far off. I personally observe way too many parents believing the "Patrick Kane" model is the model to copy. Kane was on the ice 300 days per year and it's documented because of his dad. LOTS of parents trying to do the same to the detriment of their kids minds and bodies. I also know of 7 14 year old hockey players that have to have hip surgery this year. That isn't coincidence....

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:12 am

I'm not saying I disagree with you. I'm just saying, it seems like whenever another article is published alleging semi-abusive parent behavior (after all, in the face of all of this fact-based information, what parent knowingly subjects her child to such pain and suffering), or a post claiming substantiating evidence, it usually contains statements that are true, but misleading. -Of course you were just exaggerating to make a simple point, how silly of me to misunderstand, but then again, "it's not that far off". And I don't disagree that you know 7 kids lined up for surgery, but your post insinuates it is because they have been on the ice 300 days a year; is that true - for all 7? The author of the article uses tricks like quoting 2 words of a doctor's statement, then adding his own thoughts as if they were the doctor's. The only fact in piece, in which he actual cites another publication, is that injuries are down.

I don't personally know anyone that has the time or money to put his kid on the ice 300 times a year (though, I'm sure they're out there), and I don't know anybody that would say that's a good idea, but let's stop scaring the poor barely-thirty mite parents who find 40 hours of practice and a couple tourneys in the summer. I'll tell you a childhood surgery that is going up dramatically - carpel tunnel surgery, from overuse in gaming and social media. It's still better to get the kids off the couch and onto the field, or court, or...yes, ice.

yesiplayedhockey
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Post by yesiplayedhockey » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:52 pm

I think we are all on the same page that it's so tough to figure out how much is to much. The pressures of what other families are doing usually decides what most families are going to do.

80% of of us get it..20% don't.. And those in the 20% bracket will never turn down a tournament or a practice or free ice. What I find funny is when these type of parents tries to convince us it's the kid's decision. Let be honest, we still have to tell our kids when practices and games are. No kid is waiting at the door for dad to come home to take him to the rink.. These 20% parents are the one that are over the top...they will skate their kid 300 days a year and no one is going to convince them differently. They want it more than there kid but they will never admit it.

Redarmy19
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Post by Redarmy19 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:11 am

yesiplayedhockey wrote:No kid is waiting at the door for dad to come home to take him to the rink.
Not true at all. My kid is, more often than not, literally waiting at the door, carrying his equipment, raring to go. He doesn't even want to give me time to change, grab a snack, etc.

That being said, if I think my kid needs a break I just don't tell him about opportunities because he will say yes to every single one.

JSR
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Post by JSR » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:40 am

InigoMontoya wrote:I'm not saying I disagree with you. I'm just saying, it seems like whenever another article is published alleging semi-abusive parent behavior (after all, in the face of all of this fact-based information, what parent knowingly subjects her child to such pain and suffering), or a post claiming substantiating evidence, it usually contains statements that are true, but misleading. -Of course you were just exaggerating to make a simple point, how silly of me to misunderstand, but then again, "it's not that far off". And I don't disagree that you know 7 kids lined up for surgery, but your post insinuates it is because they have been on the ice 300 days a year; is that true - for all 7? The author of the article uses tricks like quoting 2 words of a doctor's statement, then adding his own thoughts as if they were the doctor's. The only fact in piece, in which he actual cites another publication, is that injuries are down.

I don't personally know anyone that has the time or money to put his kid on the ice 300 times a year (though, I'm sure they're out there), and I don't know anybody that would say that's a good idea, but let's stop scaring the poor barely-thirty mite parents who find 40 hours of practice and a couple tourneys in the summer. I'll tell you a childhood surgery that is going up dramatically - carpel tunnel surgery, from overuse in gaming and social media. It's still better to get the kids off the couch and onto the field, or court, or...yes, ice.
Your point is fair. To answer your question I obviously don't know technically how many exact days the 7 kids I know who have to have hip surgery are on the ice. However, I will say from anecdotal evidence it feels like they are all on the ice or on a skating treadmill constantly. My observation from a far is that they never get a true "break" from either being on the ice or training. Now is the fact they need surgery due directly to this, again science tells us you cannot know for sure the cause and effect but the correlation seems pretty high.

zooomx
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Post by zooomx » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:54 am

IMHO, I am unsure that our entire parental group is to blame for this overuse issue. If we are, it is due to our willingness to buy in to the corporatization of youth sports. Really, unless your kid is a "natural" stud athlete, you feel the pressure from your peers to participate more, in order to give your child the opportunity to compete in his/her respective age group in any specific sport. Corporate entities are quick to line up and promise better odds, through their training, of making it big time.

My son and daughter are average athletes. Probably never had a chance to become D1, or even D3 players. Late bloomers as well (the 16 year old still hasn't hit puberty). At this point, I am thankful they were not early bloomers, as we quickly pushed aside the hype of over-training either one of them. They both do a 7 week, 3 touches per week, camp locally during the summer. Daughter plays in 3 tournaments throughout the summer. Just enough for both of them to shake off the rust, but they are getting plenty of time away from hockey throughout the spring and summer. Both run track and cross country, so they are in good shape year round. Long distance running probably not good companion training for hockey, but they love it, so we let them do it.

Always thought they would make their money down the road with their brains, not their skates, so we have looked at athletics as an opportunity for them to stay busy, keep in shape, and have fun away from the computer or I-phone. As a family, we have made lots of friends on and off the ice. Do I hope they both get a chance to excel at the high school level? Absolutely! However, I have always compared this to playing the lottery. Sure, I buy a ticket or 3 when the lottery hits 100 million plus. But I wouldn't go out and buy 1000 tickets to "increase my chances" on a big payoff. Feel the same way with youth sports. I could spend a lot more money developing my skaters, but would it really "increase their chances" that much? Still a lottery, right?

Completely understand that families with more athletically gifted skaters have a reasonable opportunity to pursue the dream, so it is hard to blame them for going a little overboard. However, most of our skaters are just not genetically inclined to hit it big. My biggest worry is the social impact of building a kid's whole identity around a sport. Some day competitive hockey will be taken away from all of these kids. Are we putting them in a position to be ok with that and move on with one of their many other interests? This is not just a hockey issue, it is prevalent in any youth sport.

To go back to the top, again, I do not necessarily blame the parents. I think we have just let too many wolves in with the sheep.

wannagototherink
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Post by wannagototherink » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:56 pm

JSR wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:365 days a year might be just a bit of an exaggeration. A nice example of the facts used in the article.

And I'm sure the fact based articles proving this over and over again have been posted before, but I don't recall one. This particular article certainly isn't one of them.
Yes, 365 is an exaggeration, I didn't think I had to say that, thought it was implied. However, it's not that far off. I personally observe way too many parents believing the "Patrick Kane" model is the model to copy. Kane was on the ice 300 days per year and it's documented because of his dad. LOTS of parents trying to do the same to the detriment of their kids minds and bodies. I also know of 7 14 year old hockey players that have to have hip surgery this year. That isn't coincidence....
365 isn't an exaggeration in Duluth.
"I've never seen a dumb-bell score a goal!" ~Gretter

legalbeagle05
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Post by legalbeagle05 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:33 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote:I couldn't disagree more. If us as parents are trying to blame "video games" as the root of all evil then shame on us. Everything in moderation is just fine. I'm sure our parents yelled at us when we watched 3 hours of tv or listened to the whole Led Zeppelin album from start to finish versus going in the alley to play some more boot hockey. And look how we turned out...Oh wait we are on a hockey forum....

100 games is way to excessive. 3-4 hours of video games a day is way to excessive. 6 beers in between AAA games is way to excessive. But don't point blame and instead look in the mirror and start parenting. It's starts with just saying NO...no to more hockey, no to your kid wanting to buy yet another app and no when that hockey dad asks you if you want "one more"...

It rubs me the wrong way when we blame everything on everyone else yet aren't we the ones that are suppose to be in charge of what are kid does or doesn't do? Stop blaming coaches, refs, video games...Stop trying to keep up with the Jones...Just say No...Can't it be as simple as that?
I concur completely...except ALWAYS yes to more Zeppelin!

And Johnny Cash. Let's throw him in there, too, for balance.

As you were.

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