Father of a girl playing boys

[zambonidriver]

To all of you parents and fans in the stands. I am the parent of the girl playing boys hockey. The decision that was made was along and thoughtful one that took soul searching and numerous discussions not only at the family level but with the people who are much more knowledgeable than us about what is best for the development of our daughter. Believe me she was extremely nervous and self-conscience about what would be said and how she would be viewed. As parents we tried to prepare her the best we could for what she would have to face from the boys. She has experienced in tryouts the typical testing that boys would give a girl and has handled herself very well and earned the respect of her teammates and most of her opponents. What she has been unprepared were the comments from both players and parents that have ranged from being called transgender, a dyke, asked where her penis was and called sir by girls who don't play the game. As parents we have overheard those same comments in the stands and in the lobby's of various arenas. We all love our children very much and want what was best for them. So when you see a girl on a boys team before you make some comment that your son or daughter might hear and repeat remember what that girl on that boys team has sacrificed to play on that team.
1. Interaction with girls
2. Needing to prove herself every second of every shift.
3. Petty jealousy from her peer group.
So before you make the snide comment or the derogatory remark think about how hard that girl has worked and what she has sacrificed to play on that team. Remember there are ears that her you.

[elliott70]

To all of you parents and fans in the stands. I am the parent of the girl playing boys hockey. The decision that was made was along and thoughtful one that took soul searching and numerous discussions not only at the family level but with the people who are much more knowledgeable than us about what is best for the development of our daughter. Believe me she was extremely nervous and self-conscience about what would be said and how she would be viewed. As parents we tried to prepare her the best we could for what she would have to face from the boys. She has experienced in tryouts the typical testing that boys would give a girl and has handled herself very well and earned the respect of her teammates and most of her opponents. What she has been unprepared were the comments from both players and parents that have ranged from being called transgender, a dyke, asked where her penis was and called sir by girls who don't play the game. As parents we have overheard those same comments in the stands and in the lobby's of various arenas. We all love our children very much and want what was best for them. So when you see a girl on a boys team before you make some comment that your son or daughter might hear and repeat remember what that girl on that boys team has sacrificed to play on that team.
1. Interaction with girls
2. Needing to prove herself every second of every shift.
3. Petty jealousy from her peer group.
So before you make the snide comment or the derogatory remark think about how hard that girl has worked and what she has sacrificed to play on that team. Remember there are ears that her you.

Such comments regardless of where they come from are in violation of USAH - MH rules.
I know no one likes to tattle or make waves or create a confrontation, BUT if no one steps up then it will not stop. This is bullying and needs to stop. Your daughter (and you) may handle it well, but the next girl may not.
Report the violators and let them answer to the proper authority.

And to the violators, be careful, you never know where I may be. And I detest bullies.

[BluehawkHockey]

I'm guessing that all of us who have had daughters playing on boys teams tell lots of stories. From things happening in locker rooms, to comments and actions on the ice (in front of officials) to comments and actions off the ice at the rink and at school.

My biggest problems were with the association board. Our board would say all the right things but their actions were completely different. As an example. Several boys did something inappropriate related to my daughter. They were benched for next game by coaches and board. Entire team then blames my daughter for loss, yelling at her after game. I bring it up with board president and was told to drop it.

Was it worth it for her to play boys? Developmentally, yes. Emotionally, it was hard on her and made her hide her feelings. She would say yes to doing it again.

Interestingly, she has played on boys summer teams and hasn't had any of the same issues.

[InigoMontoya]

Less-than-encouraging words can come from all angles: teammates, the other team, coaches, board members, parents from the girls' team, girls from the girls team, parents of the boys on the B team, Observer,...

The set up in hockey is Girls Hockey and Youth Hockey. Somewhere somebody feels that a girl may be in a situation where they are not afforded the same opportunities a boy is given. If people disagree, then it is their prerogative to work to get it changed. In the meantime, quit punishing kids that aren't breaking any rules.

[zambonidriver]

The event happened on Sunday during the handshake line. The association which for which the player played is horrified and is investigating and I am sure swift action will follow. I emailed the head referee for dist 2 and have not heard back which I expected. I talked to the crew and they said they didn't hear anything even though their job is to police the handshake. When I emailed the president of MN hockey typical response this is a district issue between the two districts. I have not heard anything from the offending districts president so this will be a one man crusade. What I think is amazing is that a person can be paralyzed or physically hurt and swift action will be taken. If someone is abused verbally or emotionally then it is passed off through the bureaucracy.
What does it say about our society when a female who excels in male world is subject to this Abuse. We have discussed on the girls board many times the inequity between boys and girls hockey and the reasons why girls should or should not play boys. The inequity does not start at the association level it starts at home. My daughter experienced overt sexism I can speak volumes of the covert sexism that exists from the top of MN hockey on down. More to follow.....

[jg2112]

The event happened on Sunday during the handshake line. The association which for which the player played is horrified and is investigating and I am sure swift action will follow. I emailed the head referee for dist 2 and have not heard back which I expected. I talked to the crew and they said they didn't hear anything even though their job is to police the handshake. When I emailed the president of MN hockey typical response this is a district issue between the two districts. I have not heard anything from the offending districts president so this will be a one man crusade. What I think is amazing is that a person can be paralyzed or physically hurt and swift action will be taken. If someone is abused verbally or emotionally then it is passed off through the bureaucracy.
What does it say about our society when a female who excels in male world is subject to this Abuse. We have discussed on the girls board many times the inequity between boys and girls hockey and the reasons why girls should or should not play boys. The inequity does not start at the association level it starts at home. My daughter experienced overt sexism I can speak volumes of the covert sexism that exists from the top of MN hockey on down. More to follow.....

I'm sad to hear this. I hope you get some resolution that is fair for your daughter.

The reality of girls playing boys hockey is that it is probably more likely that girls sustain emotional, rather than physical, damage from the boys' game due to abuse. And that abuse comes from everywhere, like zamboni says - teammates, opponents, coaches, and worst of all, parents. It's unacceptable and should be highlighted and thrown out of the game.

[elliott70]

The event happened on Sunday during the handshake line. The association which for which the player played is horrified and is investigating and I am sure swift action will follow. I emailed the head referee for dist 2 and have not heard back which I expected. I talked to the crew and they said they didn't hear anything even though their job is to police the handshake. When I emailed the president of MN hockey typical response this is a district issue between the two districts. I have not heard anything from the offending districts president so this will be a one man crusade. What I think is amazing is that a person can be paralyzed or physically hurt and swift action will be taken. If someone is abused verbally or emotionally then it is passed off through the bureaucracy.
What does it say about our society when a female who excels in male world is subject to this Abuse. We have discussed on the girls board many times the inequity between boys and girls hockey and the reasons why girls should or should not play boys. The inequity does not start at the association level it starts at home. My daughter experienced overt sexism I can speak volumes of the covert sexism that exists from the top of MN hockey on down. More to follow.....

If you don't get anywhere let me know.
I will make sure it is investigated.

Mark Elliott
218-766-4433
elliottm@paulbunyan.net

[zooomx]

The event happened on Sunday during the handshake line. The association which for which the player played is horrified and is investigating and I am sure swift action will follow. I emailed the head referee for dist 2 and have not heard back which I expected. I talked to the crew and they said they didn't hear anything even though their job is to police the handshake. When I emailed the president of MN hockey typical response this is a district issue between the two districts. I have not heard anything from the offending districts president so this will be a one man crusade. What I think is amazing is that a person can be paralyzed or physically hurt and swift action will be taken. If someone is abused verbally or emotionally then it is passed off through the bureaucracy.
What does it say about our society when a female who excels in male world is subject to this Abuse. We have discussed on the girls board many times the inequity between boys and girls hockey and the reasons why girls should or should not play boys. The inequity does not start at the association level it starts at home. My daughter experienced overt sexism I can speak volumes of the covert sexism that exists from the top of MN hockey on down. More to follow.....

Totally agree with the inappropriateness of what you have described. However, if the offending association is horrified and you are sure swift action will follow, why do you feel the need for the District or MN Hockey to address it? Or were you being sarcastic about the swift action?

[BadgerBob82]

The issue is complex and not sure if there are any right answers. Some random thoughts:

1. There is a lot of trash talk in hockey. Boys and Girls. I have heard the girls can be more ruthless than boys? But because a boy trash talks a girl, it is sexism? Whereas when a boy trashes another boy or a girl vs. a girl, it's accepted?

2. Have the girl go through the handshake line with her coach might help stop this? How is a referee going to hear what is said by every player in a handshake line?

3. Girls will eventually end up playing with girls, should USA/MN Hockey change "youth" hockey to "boys" and eliminate co-ed hockey? Problem solved?

4. Do Girls leaving their girls program hurt the development of their girls program?

5. Having a girl on a "boy" team changes the experience for the boys. Is it fair to the boys to make them adapt to a girl in the locker room? Did they sign up for co-ed hockey?

6. Should USA Hockey create a mandatory 8 hour module on the topic of co-ed hockey issues?

I don't know the answers to these questions, just random thoughts.

If playing boy hockey is subjecting girls, their parents, associations, districts, coaches and boys to such torment, is it time to legislate against the option for girls to play with boys? The USA/MN Hockey DFL "Nanny-State"?

I'm not for creating stupid rules, but like the STOP sign on jerseys, it doesn't do anything to solve the problem, but it makes those in charge feel like they are doing something to help. Yet they blindly continue ignoring the problem (i.e. 1 referee vs 2).

[zambonidriver]

The issue is complex and not sure if there are any right answers. Some random thoughts:

1. There is a lot of trash talk in hockey. Boys and Girls. I have heard the girls can be more ruthless than boys? But because a boy trash talks a girl, it is sexism? Whereas when a boy trashes another boy or a girl vs. a girl, it's accepted?

2. Have the girl go through the handshake line with her coach might help stop this? How is a referee going to hear what is said by every player in a handshake line?

3. Girls will eventually end up playing with girls, should USA/MN Hockey change "youth" hockey to "boys" and eliminate co-ed hockey? Problem solved?

4. Do Girls leaving their girls program hurt the development of their girls program?

5. Having a girl on a "boy" team changes the experience for the boys. Is it fair to the boys to make them adapt to a girl in the locker room? Did they sign up for co-ed hockey?

6. Should USA Hockey create a mandatory 8 hour module on the topic of co-ed hockey issues?

I don't know the answers to these questions, just random thoughts.

If playing boy hockey is subjecting girls, their parents, associations, districts, coaches and boys to such torment, is it time to legislate against the option for girls to play with boys? The USA/MN Hockey DFL "Nanny-State"?

I'm not for creating stupid rules, but like the STOP sign on jerseys, it doesn't do anything to solve the problem, but it makes those in charge feel like they are doing something to help. Yet they blindly continue ignoring the problem (i.e. 1 referee vs 2).

Some of the problems are exactly what your questions in 1 and 2 are.
1. There is a lot of trash talk in hockey. Boys and Girls. I have heard the girls can be more ruthless than boys? But because a boy trash talks a girl, it is sexism? Whereas when a boy trashes another boy or a girl vs. a girl, it's accepted? It should never be accepted. The Handshake line is a tradition of respect PERIOD. It is a tradition started in hockey for the purpose of sportsmanship.
2. Have the girl go through the handshake line with her coach might help stop this? How is a referee going to hear what is said by every player in a handshake line? Is that not the ref's job to police the line? They usually stand off to the side together and bs.
5. Having a girl on a "boy" team changes the experience for the boys. Is it fair to the boys to make them adapt to a girl in the locker room? Did they sign up for co-ed hockey? This is the exact sexist phrase that needs to be eliminated from our society. If a girl goes through the tryout process and makes a boys team it should be accepted period. Why should the girl put up with anything because she was good enough to make a high level boys team. This isn't about her teammates who would lay down and die for her. This about the teams that she plays against and the ignorant and hateful comments that are made. Just like the last question!

[BluehawkHockey]

BB82, basically you are saying girls should not play boys hockey and really shouldn't even be allowed to by MN Hockey. Those of us who have daughters that play/played boys hockey understand all your reasons for it. I never thought my daughter would and actually was against it.

Until I saw how little our association cared about girls hockey. And how little all the associations in D10 cared about girls hockey and actively tried to scuttle the efforts of D10 to make things better.

We tried to be flexible and keep her playing girls hockey while the board said they were trying to make changes. But the lip service just got old and frustrating. Our board had no intention of putting any effort into growing, promoting or even supporting girls hockey above the bare minimum they could get away with.

So, we only had 2 options. Change schools and get her into another association where she would have to play B hockey or play boys hockey. Boys hockey was the best solution.

We bent over backwards to make it easy on the boys, the coaches and the board. She got there before the rest of the team, did her warm-ups on her own. Got dressed while the rest of the team was doing warm-ups or got dressed in the bathroom or public area. She got undressed after the rest of the team. The only time she was in the locker room with the boys and coaches was 10 minutes before games, 5 minutes after games and during resurfacing.

So, we did everything we could to make it as easy on everyone as possible. What did she get for all her efforts? Constant comments from her teammates parents, harassment from boys on other teams (before, during and after games), harassment from some of her team mates (who are also her school classmates), a few horrible incidents of harassment from her team mates (some involving body fluids on her equipment), and no support from the association board. The only time the board stepped in was to suspended 1 player for 1 incident for 2 days (practice days). The coaches only stepped in once and benched 5 players for 1 game and she was blamed for the loss because she got them in trouble.

Was it worth it? She would say yes because she became a much better hockey player from playing on the top boys teams. Would we say it was worth it? A reserved yes because she loves hockey and she loved every time she was on the ice.

There are times when I think they should eliminate girls hockey and have the girls play boys hockey until they get to HS. It used to be that way, why not go back to it. But, we know that won't happen because there are enough girls who would take positions from boys that it would never be allowed again. And as we all know, every boy is more important than any girl in just about every youth association in Minnesota.

[observer]

Whatever. Seems to be the response you're getting too. A lot is said on the ice that isn't PG. I view this as similar to racist comments and unfortunately that's common. Right? No. Likely to disappear? No. Your opponent is showing their true character. Dirt.

[zambonidriver]

BB82, basically you are saying girls should not play boys hockey and really shouldn't even be allowed to by MN Hockey. Those of us who have daughters that play/played boys hockey understand all your reasons for it. I never thought my daughter would and actually was against it.

Until I saw how little our association cared about girls hockey. And how little all the associations in D10 cared about girls hockey and actively tried to scuttle the efforts of D10 to make things better.

We tried to be flexible and keep her playing girls hockey while the board said they were trying to make changes. But the lip service just got old and frustrating. Our board had no intention of putting any effort into growing, promoting or even supporting girls hockey above the bare minimum they could get away with.

So, we only had 2 options. Change schools and get her into another association where she would have to play B hockey or play boys hockey. Boys hockey was the best solution.

We bent over backwards to make it easy on the boys, the coaches and the board. She got there before the rest of the team, did her warm-ups on her own. Got dressed while the rest of the team was doing warm-ups or got dressed in the bathroom or public area. She got undressed after the rest of the team. The only time she was in the locker room with the boys and coaches was 10 minutes before games, 5 minutes after games and during resurfacing.

So, we did everything we could to make it as easy on everyone as possible. What did she get for all her efforts? Constant comments from her teammates parents, harassment from boys on other teams (before, during and after games), harassment from some of her team mates (who are also her school classmates), a few horrible incidents of harassment from her team mates (some involving body fluids on her equipment), and no support from the association board. The only time the board stepped in was to suspended 1 player for 1 incident for 2 days (practice days). The coaches only stepped in once and benched 5 players for 1 game and she was blamed for the loss because she got them in trouble.

Was it worth it? She would say yes because she became a much better hockey player from playing on the top boys teams. Would we say it was worth it? A reserved yes because she loves hockey and she loved every time she was on the ice.

There are times when I think they should eliminate girls hockey and have the girls play boys hockey until they get to HS. It used to be that way, why not go back to it. But, we know that won't happen because there are enough girls who would take positions from boys that it would never be allowed again. And as we all know, every boy is more important than any girl in just about every youth association in Minnesota.

Bravo

[zambonidriver]

I won't even get into the story of another association this year where a girl graded out at the top of the bantam b pool and ended up on the lowest Bantam C team.

[no5hole]

No inappropriate comment should be allowed and all should be investigated. That being said, why is it acceptable for girls to be allowed to chose to play on boys teams whenever they deem it is appropriate for themselves? Boys aren't allow to just freely sign up for the girls programs. The only reason it should be allowed is if no girl team options are available or if it is in the best interest of the team (needing more players). It is a team sport and should be what is best for the team, not the individual.

[zambonidriver]

No inappropriate comment should be allowed and all should be investigated. That being said, why is it acceptable for girls to be allowed to chose to play on boys teams whenever they deem it is appropriate for themselves? Boys aren't allow to just freely sign up for the girls programs. The only reason it should be allowed is if no girl team options are available or if it is in the best interest of the team (needing more players). It is a team sport and should be what is best for the team, not the individual.

Again a very sexist and ignorant opinion this is what women for years have fought for decades I teach history in a very diverse school and one thing that I will not stand for is the disrespect of race sex or religion in my room. That lame comment about boys playing girls sports is so sexist when there is not a intelligent argument. I would like to see a boy play volleyball at EP or any other school to see how he would do. My guess is he would be on the bench.

[wolfman]

Zambonidriver how do you teach school and read and reply on this Forum day after day after day? I feel for those kids you teach. They are getting the short end of the stick. I wonder if the teachers at HM-Breck or blake can get away with that.

[Jeffy95]

No inappropriate comment should be allowed and all should be investigated. That being said, why is it acceptable for girls to be allowed to chose to play on boys teams whenever they deem it is appropriate for themselves? Boys aren't allow to just freely sign up for the girls programs. The only reason it should be allowed is if no girl team options are available or if it is in the best interest of the team (needing more players). It is a team sport and should be what is best for the team, not the individual.

Again a very sexist and ignorant opinion this is what women for years have fought for decades I teach history in a very diverse school and one thing that I will not stand for is the disrespect of race sex or religion in my room. That lame comment about boys playing girls sports is so sexist when there is not a intelligent argument. I would like to see a boy play volleyball at EP or any other school to see how he would do. My guess is he would be on the bench.

So why not take your own advice and answer his question with an intelligent argument? Does calling him sexist for asking a question advance your cause?

I would like to see a boy play volleyball at EP or any other school to see how he would do. My guess is he would be on the bench

That sounds more sexist than anything he said. Just sayin.....

[zambonidriver]

Zambonidriver how do you teach school and read and reply on this Forum day after day after day? I feel for those kids you teach. They are getting the short end of the stick. I wonder if the teachers at HM-Breck or blake can get away with that.

Just good at what I do Multi-Tasking.

[observer]

Depending of the strength of the association teams I'm ok with some top girls playing PeeWee when many are more mature, bigger and stronger than boys their age. Everything changes at bantam age when boys jump in size, now checking and sexual interest in the opposite sex blooms. Huge change. Not a fan of girls playing bantam in almost any situation.

[zambonidriver]

No inappropriate comment should be allowed and all should be investigated. That being said, why is it acceptable for girls to be allowed to chose to play on boys teams whenever they deem it is appropriate for themselves? Boys aren't allow to just freely sign up for the girls programs. The only reason it should be allowed is if no girl team options are available or if it is in the best interest of the team (needing more players). It is a team sport and should be what is best for the team, not the individual.

Again a very sexist and ignorant opinion this is what women for years have fought for decades I teach history in a very diverse school and one thing that I will not stand for is the disrespect of race sex or religion in my room. That lame comment about boys playing girls sports is so sexist when there is not a intelligent argument. I would like to see a boy play volleyball at EP or any other school to see how he would do. My guess is he would be on the bench.

So why not take your own advice and answer his question with an intelligent argument? Does calling him sexist for asking a question advance your cause?

I would like to see a boy play volleyball at EP or any other school to see how he would do. My guess is he would be on the bench

That sounds more sexist than anything he said. Just sayin.....

My emotions have gotten the best of me. There are girl athletes that are every bit as capable of playing with and beating boys. If a boy want to play a girls sport let them play. Whether it be race or sex. Segregation is segregation end of story. From a true Constitutional standpoint separate but equal is unconstitutional. Brown VS Board of education Topeka Kansas 1954. Separate but equal is what title IX says. The reason why girls are allowed to play boys anything is the 14th amendment. Now that being said, should we have co-ed sports? That is a debate for another time. The law is clear on harassment which is what this thread is about. It is time that all sports be held in the same regard especially youth sports. Show me 1 association that invests the same amount of time and energy to the girls side of anything as the boys.

Until I saw how little our association cared about girls hockey. And how little all the associations in D10 cared about girls hockey and actively tried to scuttle the efforts of D10 to make things better. (Blue Hawk)

[no5hole]

But a boy can't try out for a girls hockey team, that's my point. If that isn't allowed, a girl shouldn't be allowed to play boys hockey (unless my reasons above) and displace a boy to a lower level or not be able to play at all. I'm not saying a girl can't be every bit as good as a boy (because I know some in my home association that would take it to 90% of our boys - Go Huskies). Maybe you should step up on your home association and help make your "girls program" better.
I have no problem with my boy competing against a good girl and has done so this year. I would never accept him saying what you mentioned at the start. I don't want to get too far off point here. You shouldn't call someone a sexist just because he disagrees with you.

[BluehawkHockey]

My emotions have gotten the best of me. There are girl athletes that are every bit as capable of playing with and beating boys. If a boy want to play a girls sport let them play. Whether it be race or sex. Segregation is segregation end of story. From a true Constitutional standpoint separate but equal is unconstitutional. Brown VS Board of education Topeka Kansas 1954. Separate but equal is what title IX says. The reason why girls are allowed to play boys anything is the 14th amendment. Now that being said, should we have co-ed sports? That is a debate for another time. The law is clear on harassment which is what this thread is about. It is time that all sports be held in the same regard especially youth sports. Show me 1 association that invests the same amount of time and energy to the girls side of anything as the boys.

Until I saw how little our association cared about girls hockey. And how little all the associations in D10 cared about girls hockey and actively tried to scuttle the efforts of D10 to make things better. (Blue Hawk)

It is a problem at more than the association level as well. In District 10, for HP, the boys have practice jerseys, the girls don't. At the MN Hockey level, the budget is higher for boys HP by about double than the girls. District 10 at least has brought forth ideas to improve the situation for girls but the association presidents killed them. MN Hockey has made efforts in the past and from what Elliot has said is trying to promote the girls game again.

But as long as the associations are only interested in doing the minimum possible to provide girls with the opportunities to play, the girls game will continue to slowly fade. And that's what the associations really want anyway. More money to spend on developing their next NHL phenom, or more likely the next men's leaguer.

Just imagine this BB82, Jeffy, no5hole, etc. An association spending money to develop a girls program that excels at developing girls hockey players and where the girls wouldn't dream of playing boys hockey. Wouldn't that be the best thing so the precious future NHLer doesn't get dropped to a B team because a girl took his spot. Probably cheaper too.

It would take associations willing to admit that girls can be good hockey players and are worthy of their time and effort. A lot of minds will have to be changed for that to happen.

[no5hole]

Bluehawk, you are whats wrong with girls hockey. Seriously, one of your arguments is about practice jerseys??? Instead of complaining, go out and make a difference. Don't wait and expect someone else to do something about it. Your complaint is about opportunity for the girls, yet your solution is to take opportunity away from a boy, and then make insinuations about dreams of parents and boards developing the next NHL'er. I call you a hypocrite!

[goaliedad31]

real example.
Association x has been very supportive of girls hockey. Has non parent head coach and non parent assistant coaches for the A team. Has practice jersey's Gets equal ice time and is otherwise equal to the boys program. Last year had no girls playing boys and was a top ten or higher team in the state. This year 4 girls are playing with the boys. None made the top team, two made the second team and two made the third team. Coaches for these boys teams are parents. The girls program has been hurt significantly and the team is struggling.

I think boys and girls parents of this association have a right to be upset with the decision of these four families without being called sexist.