Father of a girl playing boys

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:35 am

There is no such thing as boy's hockey.
Should there be?
I don't know, but there isn't.
Youth Hockey
Girls Hockey
Boys have one choice and girls have two.

If you don't understand it you are either very young, very naïve or have little experience in the world.

Girls play youth hockey because that is all there was for many, many years. And still today in some places that is all there is.

I prefer girls playing girls hockey (especially at bantams) but understand that sometimes that is not the best option and everything that goes with it.

But until (maybe 'if' we do) equality is reached we will have youth and girls hockey.

In the meantime the less ignorance we have the better everyone will be.
Last edited by elliott70 on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:41 am

goaliedad31 wrote:real example.
Association x has been very supportive of girls hockey. Has non parent head coach and non parent assistant coaches for the A team. Has practice jersey's :D Gets equal ice time and is otherwise equal to the boys program. Last year had no girls playing boys and was a top ten or higher team in the state. This year 4 girls are playing with the boys. None made the top team, two made the second team and two made the third team. Coaches for these boys teams are parents. The girls program has been hurt significantly and the team is struggling.

I think boys and girls parents of this association have a right to be upset with the decision of these four families without being called sexist.
It is not a one way street. Girls' parents make mistakes also. But you have to weigh both sides. Once we have equality (don't ask me how that is determined) then we can have boys hockey instead of youth hockey.

BluehawkHockey
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Post by BluehawkHockey » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:54 am

no5hole wrote:Bluehawk, you are whats wrong with girls hockey. Seriously, one of your arguments is about practice jerseys??? Instead of complaining, go out and make a difference. Don't wait and expect someone else to do something about it. Your complaint is about opportunity for the girls, yet your solution is to take opportunity away from a boy, and then make insinuations about dreams of parents and boards developing the next NHL'er. I call you a hypocrite!
I did try for years to change things. All for naught. I was on my association board. I volunteered for committees. I donated extra money to my association every year. Practice jerseys mean nothing, except as an example of how not everything is equal at other levels in hockey. I put more effort than anyone else in our association to make it better. But one voice just wasn't enough.

By the way, my daughter didn't take a single thing away from any boy. The boy that didn't get her spot on the team still got better development and more attention, and more ice time and better coaching and more effort towards his success from everyone at the association than she ever did when she was on a girls team.

For all the parents that don't want a girl on a boys team. If you can't handle your son getting beat out for a spot on the boys team then do something about it. Get your association to make a true effort with the girls and maybe none of them would want to play boys.

All of this goes back to the original issue. Because a girl is on a boys team, everyone thinks its ok to treat them like crap. Parents, team mates, coaches, board members were all involved in the harassment (subtle and overt). Our board ignored the complaints and issues. Coaches didn't want to deal with them. So we just had to put up with it because she loves hockey.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:03 am

BluehawkHockey wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:My emotions have gotten the best of me. There are girl athletes that are every bit as capable of playing with and beating boys. If a boy want to play a girls sport let them play. Whether it be race or sex. Segregation is segregation end of story. From a true Constitutional standpoint separate but equal is unconstitutional. Brown VS Board of education Topeka Kansas 1954. Separate but equal is what title IX says. The reason why girls are allowed to play boys anything is the 14th amendment. Now that being said, should we have co-ed sports? That is a debate for another time. The law is clear on harassment which is what this thread is about. It is time that all sports be held in the same regard especially youth sports. Show me 1 association that invests the same amount of time and energy to the girls side of anything as the boys.

Until I saw how little our association cared about girls hockey. And how little all the associations in D10 cared about girls hockey and actively tried to scuttle the efforts of D10 to make things better. (Blue Hawk)

Just imagine this BB82, Jeffy, no5hole, etc.
Don't lump me in, I haven't even given an opinion on the topic. I actually tried to recruit one of the girls to our boys team this year. She's a good player and could have helped us. I didn't care if she was a boy, girl or a Lorax. She decided to stay with the girls though.

BluehawkHockey
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Post by BluehawkHockey » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:30 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
Don't lump me in, I haven't even given an opinion on the topic. I actually tried to recruit one of the girls to our boys team this year. She's a good player and could have helped us. I didn't care if she was a boy, girl or a Lorax. She decided to stay with the girls though.
Sorry Jeffy95. My mistake.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:59 am

BluehawkHockey wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
Don't lump me in, I haven't even given an opinion on the topic. I actually tried to recruit one of the girls to our boys team this year. She's a good player and could have helped us. I didn't care if she was a boy, girl or a Lorax. She decided to stay with the girls though.
Sorry Jeffy95. My mistake.
No problem, I guess I can understand why you may have thought I was on the other side of the fence. I was just pointing out that someone should not be attacked or labeled for asking a question. Zamboni owned up to it after that and said his emotions got the best of him. I admire him for that.

To me, that is one of the biggest problems with any gender, racial, etc. issue, that it's almost impossible to take emotion out of it when it's our kids involved. But that's exactly what has to happen. People can't be afraid to ask questions and have honest debates.

I sympathize with the original topic and how you've since said your daughter was treated. The opponent thing is a little more understandable. Not acceptable of course, but perhaps more understandable. But if she was treated that way by her own teammates then that is a tragedy. Like it's been pointed out, that starts at home. If our boys don't know how to treat and respect girls/women then we are failures as parents. I have a daughter and if this happened to her and the Association/Coaches wouldn't take it seriously, then I would make sure that her older brother knew about it. There might be some subtle hints about how I would have handled it at his age. Maybe not the most PC solution but I'm pretty sure it would get the desired result.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:25 am

I hate to write this but You need to have a little documentation on the incident from the Bantam A scrimmage from last night. 1/24/2016. My daughter is the goalie for the Bantam A team. She was subject to some pretty horrible comments from a couple players on your team. She was called transgender, Lesbian and a dyke from a player on your team. I have reached out to your coach and he has been wonderful and supportive. We debated long and hard about our daughter playing boys hockey this year and for the most part she has had a wonderful experience. Being a girl on the boys side she has had to deal with the normal issues of the boys testing her and she has handled that just fine. The ages from 12-16 are the hardest for a girl with regards to how they view themselves. So the comments yesterday from the player/players were totally unacceptable and illegal. When I talked to your coach last night he agreed with me. You have hired the right guy to be your head coach. This is a very serious matter and it needs to be addressed association wide. We took the night last night to clam down and process what had happened so we would not overreact. Here is what we need to have happen on your end. The player who made the comments needs to be suspended for the rest of the year and needs to write an apology letter to our daughter. This needs to be done by Friday or we will pursue legal action both criminal and civil. If the above action is taken then nothing else will be pursued. As a teacher and coach I am sorry that this has happened. I also understand that things like this are tough to police and the behavior probably starts at home. Please Keep me posted on your steps to rectify this situation moving forward

wolfman
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Post by wolfman » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:15 pm

Man I feel bad for Flake the next four years...

observer
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Post by observer » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:04 pm

Damn. The 14 team woulda been fun.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:17 am

zambonidriver wrote:I hate to write this but You need to have a little documentation on the incident from the Bantam A scrimmage from last night. 1/24/2016. My daughter is the goalie for the Bantam A team. She was subject to some pretty horrible comments from a couple players on your team. She was called transgender, Lesbian and a dyke from a player on your team. I have reached out to your coach and he has been wonderful and supportive. We debated long and hard about our daughter playing boys hockey this year and for the most part she has had a wonderful experience. Being a girl on the boys side she has had to deal with the normal issues of the boys testing her and she has handled that just fine. The ages from 12-16 are the hardest for a girl with regards to how they view themselves. So the comments yesterday from the player/players were totally unacceptable and illegal. When I talked to your coach last night he agreed with me. You have hired the right guy to be your head coach. This is a very serious matter and it needs to be addressed association wide. We took the night last night to clam down and process what had happened so we would not overreact. Here is what we need to have happen on your end. The player who made the comments needs to be suspended for the rest of the year and needs to write an apology letter to our daughter. This needs to be done by Friday or we will pursue legal action both criminal and civil. If the above action is taken then nothing else will be pursued. As a teacher and coach I am sorry that this has happened. I also understand that things like this are tough to police and the behavior probably starts at home. Please Keep me posted on your steps to rectify this situation moving forward
No offense intended, some of my best friends are goalie parents, but I'll ask the proverbial chicken and egg question: do you have to be nuts to allow your kid to be a goalie, or does having a kid be a goalie make you nuts?

no5hole
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Post by no5hole » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:51 am

I stand corrected Bluehawk. I made too many assumptions there. And that is really not what this thread is about. No girl (or boy) should have to withstand bullying and harrassment. I hope everything turns out for the best zamboni.

NORTHWOODS HOCKEY
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Post by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:00 am

Discussing girls and co-ed hockey is very important and a legit topic. The subject should be a priority for every governing body each spring. The job of these governing bodies is to insure the kids are provided, not only the most, but the best opportunities they can possibly provide. There is no one fix, that would take care of every issue each association faces each year. It was said in a prior post that associations put their girls program on the back burner. It is very obvious that associations are at the mercy of the parents and what they are going to do with their player. A majority of associations can't make solid decisions when they don't know what the players are going to do. Are they going to play boys, are they going to HS, are they going to play choice, did they open enroll, their house is for sale and they are moving or are they going to be able to even afford it? Hard to put all the blame on a group of volunteers trying to do their best with very little concrete information.

With that said, it is of extremely poor taste and shows an extreme lack of judgment to go on a public forum and start post about something that is still in the process of being investigated. It is an individual incident, involving youth players (minors) and the threat of legal action. There are policies and procedures in place for such things and there are very important reasons for these policies and procedures. The first being, it involves a minor and the importance of protecting that minor, even when they make a mistake. There are already corrective action plans in place, if and when it is decided the child is guilty of said accusations. Demanding punishment before due process, is flat out wrong! Going on a public forum demanding certain punishment shows a lack of understanding. Maybe you should study other areas of the constitution. Hockey is a very small world and it doesn't take very long for people to figure out the "who" "what" and "where". I have no ties to either area and I know. There are two sides to every story and going on a public forum, sharing one side before the investigation of the incident has really even started, is what is ignorant.

Not defending the incident, just completely dumbfounded by the response.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:26 am

Zamboni and BlueHawk: You cherry picked what you wanted from my random thoughts, and assume I am anti-girl's hockey? As Elliot said, there is no BOYS hockey. It is youth hockey and therefore co-ed. I am 100% fine with this, and in fact about 13-14 years ago while on our association board, I was the lone voice of support for a Dad that felt he had to seek approval for his daughter to tryout for Pee-Wee. After all the discussion, I said there is no reason for discussion, it's youth hockey and she is welcome to tryout and play youth hockey. I am fine with it. Just remember, there are two sides to it. In associations with a good/strong (whatever you want to call it) girls program having good numbers and competitive teams, having girls leave that program for the boys creates hard feelings in the girls program, from the players, parents, coaches and association directors. They view the move from the girls program to boys as being "selfish" and usually parent driven. Is this true? Not sure in all cases, but it does happen. And it doesn't mean people are sexist.

As for the "boys will be boys" mentality. 30-50 year old Dad's still seem to struggle to overcome this and move into the current world. I 100% agree there is no place for racist, sexist, bullying, threatening, etc in youth sports. AND I am VERY sorry your daughter and any girl is the target of these repeated attacks. I'm sure dealing with these incidents feels like playing Whack a Mole?

I have coached teams with black, Asian, girls and kids with glasses. 10-15 year old kids can say bad hurtful things. As parents, coaches, board members, I'd like to think I(we) have tried to do the right thing.

As for convoluted interpretations/applications of Title IX? That's another topic.

jpiehl
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Post by jpiehl » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:22 am

zambonidriver wrote:I hate to write this but You need to have a little documentation on the incident from the Bantam A scrimmage from last night. 1/24/2016. My daughter is the goalie for the Bantam A team. She was subject to some pretty horrible comments from a couple players on your team. She was called transgender, Lesbian and a dyke from a player on your team. I have reached out to your coach and he has been wonderful and supportive. We debated long and hard about our daughter playing boys hockey this year and for the most part she has had a wonderful experience. Being a girl on the boys side she has had to deal with the normal issues of the boys testing her and she has handled that just fine. The ages from 12-16 are the hardest for a girl with regards to how they view themselves. So the comments yesterday from the player/players were totally unacceptable and illegal. When I talked to your coach last night he agreed with me. You have hired the right guy to be your head coach. This is a very serious matter and it needs to be addressed association wide. We took the night last night to clam down and process what had happened so we would not overreact. Here is what we need to have happen on your end. The player who made the comments needs to be suspended for the rest of the year and needs to write an apology letter to our daughter. This needs to be done by Friday or we will pursue legal action both criminal and civil. If the above action is taken then nothing else will be pursued. As a teacher and coach I am sorry that this has happened. I also understand that things like this are tough to police and the behavior probably starts at home. Please Keep me posted on your steps to rectify this situation moving forward
I have to agree with Northwoods on this. Demanding that someone be punished before an investigation is complete sounds like you have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner on the incident. And as far as legal action goes, free speech is protected by the constitution, even free speech that you don't like. I certainly don't condone what happened to your daughter, but an overreaction to it does not help your cause.

zooomx
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Post by zooomx » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:46 am

jpiehl wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:I hate to write this but You need to have a little documentation on the incident from the Bantam A scrimmage from last night. 1/24/2016. My daughter is the goalie for the Bantam A team. She was subject to some pretty horrible comments from a couple players on your team. She was called transgender, Lesbian and a dyke from a player on your team. I have reached out to your coach and he has been wonderful and supportive. We debated long and hard about our daughter playing boys hockey this year and for the most part she has had a wonderful experience. Being a girl on the boys side she has had to deal with the normal issues of the boys testing her and she has handled that just fine. The ages from 12-16 are the hardest for a girl with regards to how they view themselves. So the comments yesterday from the player/players were totally unacceptable and illegal. When I talked to your coach last night he agreed with me. You have hired the right guy to be your head coach. This is a very serious matter and it needs to be addressed association wide. We took the night last night to clam down and process what had happened so we would not overreact. Here is what we need to have happen on your end. The player who made the comments needs to be suspended for the rest of the year and needs to write an apology letter to our daughter. This needs to be done by Friday or we will pursue legal action both criminal and civil. If the above action is taken then nothing else will be pursued. As a teacher and coach I am sorry that this has happened. I also understand that things like this are tough to police and the behavior probably starts at home. Please Keep me posted on your steps to rectify this situation moving forward
I have to agree with Northwoods on this. Demanding that someone be punished before an investigation is complete sounds like you have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner on the incident. And as far as legal action goes, free speech is protected by the constitution, even free speech that you don't like. I certainly don't condone what happened to your daughter, but an overreaction to it does not help your cause.
I agree with both posters. Some people are more focused on getting their pound of flesh instead of truly solving the problem. This could be a great teaching moment for the player/team that allegedly made the comment. I can't tell you how many times I have been told "what needs to be done" in terms of punishment. The alleged incident is horrible. I truly feel for the daughter for multiple reasons.

wolfman
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Post by wolfman » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:21 am

zambonidriver wrote:
I hate to write this but You need to have a little documentation on the incident from the Bantam A scrimmage from last night. 1/24/2016. My daughter is the goalie for the Bantam A team. She was subject to some pretty horrible comments from a couple players on your team. She was called transgender, Lesbian and a dyke from a player on your team. I have reached out to your coach and he has been wonderful and supportive. We debated long and hard about our daughter playing boys hockey this year and for the most part she has had a wonderful experience. Being a girl on the boys side she has had to deal with the normal issues of the boys testing her and she has handled that just fine. The ages from 12-16 are the hardest for a girl with regards to how they view themselves. So the comments yesterday from the player/players were totally unacceptable and illegal. When I talked to your coach last night he agreed with me. You have hired the right guy to be your head coach. This is a very serious matter and it needs to be addressed association wide. We took the night last night to clam down and process what had happened so we would not overreact. Here is what we need to have happen on your end. The player who made the comments needs to be suspended for the rest of the year and needs to write an apology letter to our daughter. This needs to be done by Friday or we will pursue legal action both criminal and civil. If the above action is taken then nothing else will be pursued. As a teacher and coach I am sorry that this has happened. I also understand that things like this are tough to police and the behavior probably starts at home. Please Keep me posted on your steps to rectify this situation moving forward


Zambonidriver must have been served by the parents of the kids he teaches everyday. Im told the parents wanted a written apology from Zam by noon Friday for all the hours he stared at his computer instead of teaching his class. The parents were prepared to bring criminal and civil legal action against him and it does not look good. These parents want Zam suspended from teaching without pay for the rest of the year and will stop at nothing till justice is served.

TheMayor
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Post by TheMayor » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:38 am

zambonidriver wrote:I won't even get into the story of another association this year where a girl graded out at the top of the bantam b pool and ended up on the lowest Bantam C team.
If you're speaking about Edina, I wonder how you know where she graded? Grading results are not published. Also, grading is only part of the tryout process - game situations make up the bulk of it. The girl in questions made the top U15 team and then went back to Bantam C for some reason which only her family knows.

wolfman
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Post by wolfman » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:00 pm

Did that 13 year old boy get what was coming to him? I hope they flogged him in downtown Forest Lake today. His parents and grandparents should have been made to watch. Kids and his kin should be held accountable for his actions on the ice in a Bantam game! When is the world gonna figure out that a girl playing with the boys us NOT the problem! I hope that little young man learns his lesson and pays for his unspeakable sins.

MN_Bowhunter
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Post by MN_Bowhunter » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:11 am

InigoMontoya wrote:
No offense intended, some of my best friends are goalie parents, but I'll ask the proverbial chicken and egg question: do you have to be nuts to allow your kid to be a goalie, or does having a kid be a goalie make you nuts?
Yes.

Ref22
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Post by Ref22 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:03 pm

zambonidriver wrote:I hate to write this but You need to have a little documentation on the incident from the Bantam A scrimmage from last night. 1/24/2016. My daughter is the goalie for the Bantam A team. She was subject to some pretty horrible comments from a couple players on your team. She was called transgender, Lesbian and a dyke from a player on your team. I have reached out to your coach and he has been wonderful and supportive. We debated long and hard about our daughter playing boys hockey this year and for the most part she has had a wonderful experience. Being a girl on the boys side she has had to deal with the normal issues of the boys testing her and she has handled that just fine. The ages from 12-16 are the hardest for a girl with regards to how they view themselves. So the comments yesterday from the player/players were totally unacceptable and illegal. When I talked to your coach last night he agreed with me. You have hired the right guy to be your head coach. This is a very serious matter and it needs to be addressed association wide. We took the night last night to clam down and process what had happened so we would not overreact. Here is what we need to have happen on your end. The player who made the comments needs to be suspended for the rest of the year and needs to write an apology letter to our daughter. This needs to be done by Friday or we will pursue legal action both criminal and civil. If the above action is taken then nothing else will be pursued. As a teacher and coach I am sorry that this has happened. I also understand that things like this are tough to police and the behavior probably starts at home. Please Keep me posted on your steps to rectify this situation moving forward
Zamboni, -
you can't be serious...

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:54 am

MN_Bowhunter wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
No offense intended, some of my best friends are goalie parents, but I'll ask the proverbial chicken and egg question: do you have to be nuts to allow your kid to be a goalie, or does having a kid be a goalie make you nuts?
Yes.
:lol:

MN_Bowhunter
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Post by MN_Bowhunter » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:51 am

I keep trying to write a response to this ordeal...All I'm going to say is I wouldn't have handled it this way. Starting in June...

And let Zamboni himself say the rest.

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ht=#679939


"Just want my daughter to continue to develop on the ice the locker room won't expose her to anything different than she has already experience with her six older brothers and sisters."

"With regards to the locker room one grade difference is not that much. I teach High school so I know what highschoolers talk about and I can tell you from experience it is not that different."

" I am not worried so much about locker room stuff as I am on ice development. One thing we do to much as parents is hover over our kids"

"I am not going to wrap her in bubble wrap. Just because she is a girl." - to be fair, this comment was in response to an injury related comment. But obviously she is emotionally injured now so I thought I'd include it. Do they make bubble wrap for feelings?

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:59 am

BluehawkHockey wrote:
no5hole wrote:Bluehawk, you are whats wrong with girls hockey. Seriously, one of your arguments is about practice jerseys??? Instead of complaining, go out and make a difference. Don't wait and expect someone else to do something about it. Your complaint is about opportunity for the girls, yet your solution is to take opportunity away from a boy, and then make insinuations about dreams of parents and boards developing the next NHL'er. I call you a hypocrite!
I did try for years to change things. All for naught. I was on my association board. I volunteered for committees. I donated extra money to my association every year. Practice jerseys mean nothing, except as an example of how not everything is equal at other levels in hockey. I put more effort than anyone else in our association to make it better. But one voice just wasn't enough.

By the way, my daughter didn't take a single thing away from any boy. The boy that didn't get her spot on the team still got better development and more attention, and more ice time and better coaching and more effort towards his success from everyone at the association than she ever did when she was on a girls team.

For all the parents that don't want a girl on a boys team. If you can't handle your son getting beat out for a spot on the boys team then do something about it. Get your association to make a true effort with the girls and maybe none of them would want to play boys.

All of this goes back to the original issue. Because a girl is on a boys team, everyone thinks its ok to treat them like crap. Parents, team mates, coaches, board members were all involved in the harassment (subtle and overt). Our board ignored the complaints and issues. Coaches didn't want to deal with them. So we just had to put up with it because she loves hockey.
Same! I feel like I could have written exactly this. We've been through the good/bad/ugly this year. But at the end of the day, she's proven herself to her team and the crowd (parents.) Like she will have to prove herself in every tryout, practice, game going forward in high school.

I will say she hasn't had the name calling zamboni describes, an unfortunate situation for all involved. Honestly, the mean girls have always been crueler than anything chirp or insult the boys throw out. Neither is ok, but when the final buzzer goes off it is always about how you played not what you said.

Agree that this isn't the place to address specific incidents but it can't hurt to bring up the general topic. The worst offenders will never see themselves or their kid in the discussion anyway. Not changing minds here on the forum. I hope you and your daughter (zamboni) were able to get some support from the actual team and association involved. And that the threatened litigation was only that.

nu2hockey
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Post by nu2hockey » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:34 pm

Boys calling a girl names!!!
Litigation?
Elliot will see to it?

What a bunch of baloney!

The girl has heard worse at school, I guarantee it...

z-drvr your daughter wasn't harmed , YOU do more harm to her when you're screaming at her during her goalie practice ..

p.s, three names (Bailey, Frank, and Meyers) pushed you to FL, get ready for a 4th, looking at FL for next year..

see ya

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:16 am

wolfman wrote:Man I feel bad for Flake the next four years...
Why?

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