Mandatory Level Declarations

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

Should Minnesota Hockey mandate how associations declare team levels?

Poll ended at Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:31 am

Yes, too many teams sandbag
14
56%
No, this wouldn't help improve parity
11
44%
 
Total votes: 25

The Exiled One
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Post by The Exiled One » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:05 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:Agree. There will be some years where you are up and some where you are down but I bet more often than not this plan would hit that sweetspot. Why? Because it forces that minimum floor and gives the option of playing a team up when the association knows they got a good group coming through. It prevents that sandbagging effect that throws everyone off.
Thanks.

elliott70, if you'd like me to present and defend this proposal to Minnesota Hockey, I'd be happy to do so. Just let me know.

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:50 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:Because then you put an emphasis on winning instead of where it is supposed to be for youth sports, development, competition, and fun. A relegation system would be a very bad idea.
I disagree, promotion and relegation do not put an emphasis on winning. Just the opposite actually. They put an emphasis on your team playing against the proper competition to best develop your team and allow you to develop your team season after season knowing you will always be playing proper competition and never limiting your ability to play against "the best" just because your association is of a certain size. I will say the one area that would need to be addressed in promotion and relegation in regards to MN hockey is the 2 year birth cycle. In soccer it works well because there is only one year of kids, and actually (atleast until next year) that one year is not a calendar year but a year that looks a lot like MN Hockey in that the date cutoff is August 1st which allows kids to play with their classmates. So no promotion and relegation do not lead to win at all costs just the opposite they lead to proper development and working within your community.

nobody
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:13 am

Post by nobody » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:14 am

There does need to be some system.


The very first thing, in my opinion is to Define the levels- that way everyone knows the expectations.

Such as:

A level- heads up, hands, must be able to pass, understand positioning. Must be able to shoot. Balance, stopping capability----But smart enough to avoid stopping. Should understand team concepts. May be weaker players to fill out team- if so could be short shifted or even benched. Mostly 2nd year players.

AA all the above but strong teamwork skills, ability to identify weaknesses and exploit them and cover your own. Patient, Every player a threat-at any time. Would expect no first year--if so, must be clearly a top player that anyone can see, not just Dad.

feel free comment, add subtract etc.

Section 8 guy
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Post by Section 8 guy » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:43 pm

i don't think I contradict my point at all. Real people with real data trying to do the right thing have a difficult time getting it right. It's a bit illogical to think a dictated system is going to solve all of the ills or be more accurate.

You are putting way too much emphasis on your circular logic theory. It's a bit unlikely to think that in the years that one association zigged that all the other associations zagged.......and that in the years that association zagged......that all of the other associations zigged. Sometimes it's just grey......and tough to make a call. And these are 11-15 year old kids were talking about.

The system described has some flexibility in it. That flexibility goes one way. It's illogical to think that same flexibility is never needed the other way.

You have a specific problem you are trying to solve.....and this system probably gets some of the way there. Maybe most of the way there. I think you're underestimating the unintended consequences. I can't imagine the frustration levels that will come from teams that are forced to play at a level above what they know they are capable of playing at and they only win a handful of games or less because of it. It very well may dwarf the frustrations that come from a few teams that may or may not have won the state tournament they feel they were cheated out of anyhow.

There is a problem here. It should be addressed. It just may be better addressed by dealing directly with the small number of true offenders.

BadgerBob82
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:49 am

Post by BadgerBob82 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:02 am

Any association with more than 75 players at a level, MUST field an "AA" team. Any association with an "AA" team MUST field an "A". Request to deviate from this must receive majority approval from associations in their District. MN Hockey MUST allow "B" teams to schedule games with "A" teams and "C" teams to schedule game with "B" teams.

The Exiled One
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Post by The Exiled One » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:14 am

Section 8 guy wrote:The system described has some flexibility in it. That flexibility goes one way. It's illogical to think that same flexibility is never needed the other way.
One way flexibility isn't a bug, it's a feature. Having a standard is what makes the proposal work.
Section 8 guy wrote:There is a problem here. It should be addressed. It just may be better addressed by dealing directly with the small number of true offenders.
We're way beyond policing as a mechanism. Distribution of talent is entirely out of whack and the classification system is completely arbitrary. How would any association even know that they are "offending"? How do you know that the individuals at Mounds View Irondale in charge of declarations didn't truly believe that their peewee A team would get manhandled at the AA level despite having six teams with robust rosters? Were they malicious or naive? Can you point to a written standard that shows they declared "incorrectly"? I won't accept "common sense" as an answer. In my experience, sense is not that common.

Section 8 guy
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Post by Section 8 guy » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:53 pm

I guess you have a plan then. Good luck! Hopefully it improves things.

observer
Posts: 2225
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:45 pm

Post by observer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:16 am

So you got a few sandbaggers at each level, eh. (List them for public embarrassment)

Big deal! I believe this idea of forced rank will create even more miss matches. I explained before that just cuz two association have 50 skaters at a level means almost nothing because one group may work and train year around with good coaches and the other group does not. If an association sandbags the other associations will point it out and hopeful the association reconsiders levels for next year. Any development plan stresses constant improvement and improvement means playing at a higher level in the future. If they whoop everyone (which I'm not sure we're seeing) then administrators, coaches, players and parents will want to move to a higher level next year anyways. Works better without more governed team level BS.

I honestly believe you will create more problems with this approach. If every kid and association were the same then it might be a good idea but they aren't and it isn't.

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:47 am

Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...

Redarmy19
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:33 am

Post by Redarmy19 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:04 am

How do you determine the size of your associations? # of school aged kids in the community, total population of the community, or # of kids registered for hockey?

Jeffy95
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Post by Jeffy95 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:25 am

JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.

jpiehl
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:09 am

Post by jpiehl » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:02 am

There is one flaw in all of this: The premise that talent is evenly distributed among a group of players. In my years of hockey, I have observed it to more accurately follow a bell curve, with the concentration of talent in the center with the top and bottom ends being outliers. With that it shows more of why there are mismatches and would be even more under the policy that assumes a linear distribution. Small associations simply don't have the number of outliers to make a top team competitive, while their middle teams may be.

The Exiled One
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Post by The Exiled One » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:57 am

jpiehl wrote:There is one flaw in all of this: The premise that talent is evenly distributed among a group of players. In my years of hockey, I have observed it to more accurately follow a bell curve, with the concentration of talent in the center with the top and bottom ends being outliers. With that it shows more of why there are mismatches and would be even more under the policy that assumes a linear distribution. Small associations simply don't have the number of outliers to make a top team competitive, while their middle teams may be.
That's a decent hypothesis, but empirical data shows that is actually incorrect. In fact, it's a power law distribution, which is essentially how my table lays out. I could adjust the table to make the curve more aggressive, but the goal is still to create a standard.

To your point of "small associations", I pretty much agree, which is why you'll notice the requirements for two-team and smaller three-team associations are less stringent. Frankly, under this system, I believe you'd find many more of the opt-ups coming from the smaller associations and not from the middle-sized associations.

spamtownusa
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:26 pm

Post by spamtownusa » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:35 pm

JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
Love this. Do you have state tournaments for each level within each division?

Section 8 guy
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Post by Section 8 guy » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:21 pm

TEO,

Just to better understand where you are coming from on this......can you quantify how many teams you think there that are causing problems at each level for Bantam A, Bantam B, PeeWee A and PeeWee B?

I'm sure you have a much better handle on this than most.......but without knowing any more about the various levels than what their records tell me I see one problem at the Bantam A level, and I think I know their reasons, and two associations that show up in the top 10 quite a bit at the lower levels. Is it more widespread than that?

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:45 am

spamtownusa wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
Love this. Do you have state tournaments for each level within each division?
Yes we do

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:45 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason

Jeffy95
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:09 am

JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:37 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done

Jeffy95
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:47 am

JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done
There is a perfectly good reason for why it's set up this way. If sandbagging is a problem now (which judging by all the posts on here, it definitely is) it would be a lot worse if you could just play anyone during the season. It would be pretty easy to designate yourself a B team if you could play A and AA teams all season to prepare yourself for the run to the B State Championship. I wish High School did the same thing, outside of conference play. It would force teams like Hermantown and Breck to move up.

InThePipes
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Post by InThePipes » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:06 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done
There is a perfectly good reason for why it's set up this way. If sandbagging is a problem now (which judging by all the posts on here, it definitely is) it would be a lot worse if you could just play anyone during the season. It would be pretty easy to designate yourself a B team if you could play A and AA teams all season to prepare yourself for the run to the B State Championship. I wish High School did the same thing, outside of conference play. It would force teams like Hermantown and Breck to move up.
By definition of the way they set levels in WI (by association size and assuming everyone must have an A team), then the sandbagging that you describe should not occur, correct?

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:29 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done
There is a perfectly good reason for why it's set up this way. If sandbagging is a problem now (which judging by all the posts on here, it definitely is) it would be a lot worse if you could just play anyone during the season. It would be pretty easy to designate yourself a B team if you could play A and AA teams all season to prepare yourself for the run to the B State Championship. I wish High School did the same thing, outside of conference play. It would force teams like Hermantown and Breck to move up.
You missed the point entirely. YOU don't get to designate yourself. Your designation is forced upon you but who you play is not. Further, we have virtually zero sandbagging in Wisconsin because no one wants to play 10-0 games on purpose and in rare times they do they do not schedule another game with them. If a B team and a A team are a good fit for playing a competitive game against eachother then there is ZERO reason they shouldn't play eachother. It's good for everyone. Further, there is no sense in sandbagging because you are given your designation as either an A, B or C team and it's based on club size. And that designation only means something come state tourney/regional play off time. You can't "sandbag" anything for that as that is also dictated to you. I think you need to re-read everything, this doesn't lead to more sandbagging it gets rid of it almost 100%. Your system encouraged sandbagging etc... by leaving the wrong things up to the associations. We left the right things up to our assocations and took the other stuff away and that is one problem we don't have

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:31 am

InThePipes wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done
There is a perfectly good reason for why it's set up this way. If sandbagging is a problem now (which judging by all the posts on here, it definitely is) it would be a lot worse if you could just play anyone during the season. It would be pretty easy to designate yourself a B team if you could play A and AA teams all season to prepare yourself for the run to the B State Championship. I wish High School did the same thing, outside of conference play. It would force teams like Hermantown and Breck to move up.
By definition of the way they set levels in WI (by association size and assuming everyone must have an A team), then the sandbagging that you describe should not occur, correct?
Correct, "sand bagging" as you guys describe it anyway is virtually nonexistent here. That doesn't mean there isn't the occasional lopsided game but no intentional sandbagging, as honestly it's useless, nothing to gain

Jeffy95
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:27 am

JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done
There is a perfectly good reason for why it's set up this way. If sandbagging is a problem now (which judging by all the posts on here, it definitely is) it would be a lot worse if you could just play anyone during the season. It would be pretty easy to designate yourself a B team if you could play A and AA teams all season to prepare yourself for the run to the B State Championship. I wish High School did the same thing, outside of conference play. It would force teams like Hermantown and Breck to move up.
You missed the point entirely. YOU don't get to designate yourself. Your designation is forced upon you but who you play is not. Further, we have virtually zero sandbagging in Wisconsin because no one wants to play 10-0 games on purpose and in rare times they do they do not schedule another game with them. If a B team and a A team are a good fit for playing a competitive game against eachother then there is ZERO reason they shouldn't play eachother. It's good for everyone. Further, there is no sense in sandbagging because you are given your designation as either an A, B or C team and it's based on club size. And that designation only means something come state tourney/regional play off time. You can't "sandbag" anything for that as that is also dictated to you. I think you need to re-read everything, this doesn't lead to more sandbagging it gets rid of it almost 100%. Your system encouraged sandbagging etc... by leaving the wrong things up to the associations. We left the right things up to our assocations and took the other stuff away and that is one problem we don't have
My response was to your first sentence and regarding the way the current MN Hockey system is set up. Nothing to do with WI, I didn't even read the rest.

JSR
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:45 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote:
JSR wrote:Honestly I don't get why teams must have strict adherence to playing whatever level they are part of. You could actually deem levels based on association size just as described above but that designation would ONLY be for state tournament purposes. Otherwise regardless of what your designation is I don't see why MN Hockey makes such a big deal out letting teams just find and play teams that will be good games for all involved.

In Wisconsin we designate based on association size. We do it a little differently. So our largest associations are designated as Division1, then we have Division 2, then Division 3 and Division 4 is smallest. With in each division you have "A" teams, and B teams and possibly C teams. The largest associations might have one A team, a few B teams and a C team or whatever. So if you are a the top squirt team in your association in a division 1 association you are called 1A, if you are a top team in your association in division two you would be called 2A. If you are the second team or "B' team in a division two association you are called 2B etc.. etc... The number is your division and the letter is indicative of where you fall inside your association.... Now these classifications really mean nothing except for state tournament playoffs, that's it. Otherwise you can literally choose to play whoever you want whenever you want as long as both teams agree to play. So a squirt 1A team can play a squirt 4A team. A squirt 1B team can play a Squirt 2A team. A squirt 2C team can play a squirt 2 B team and so on and so forth.... and guess what. It works great, no one complains because it leaves it up to the coaches on both sides to know their teams, know the landscape and schedule appropriately. DO you get the occasional lopsided match, especially early in the year, yep and guess what, those two teams usually cancel their reciprocal and both go find a different team to fill in that is more appropriate for their level. Its not rocket science. I seriously don't get why we get our panties in a wad over these stupid designations when it comes to scheduling etc.... Believe it or not it polices itself pretty much and if you ever have a rogue team that is clearly trying to something bad then the Region director (aka or district director equivalent) steps in, handles it. No big deal and everyone goes back to behaving and being normal again.... again the idea you guys can't wrap your heads around something simple like that is mind boggling to me. It's only complicated if adults make it complicated because trust me, it's not complicated for the kids...
MN Hockey does allow scrimmages across designations under some circumstances. You have to ask your director for permission but if you give them a good reason, such as that the teams are evenly matched, they will most likely approve it. It's the invitational tournaments that they are strict about. Under no circumstances will they allow a MN A team to play a MN B team in an invitational tournament, even if it happens in WI or another state.
You made my point,. You make it too difficult for no real good reason
Sending an e-mail is difficult?
You shouldn't need "permission" to begin with... and yea honestly sending an email asking for permission is too difficult and should not need to be done
There is a perfectly good reason for why it's set up this way. If sandbagging is a problem now (which judging by all the posts on here, it definitely is) it would be a lot worse if you could just play anyone during the season. It would be pretty easy to designate yourself a B team if you could play A and AA teams all season to prepare yourself for the run to the B State Championship. I wish High School did the same thing, outside of conference play. It would force teams like Hermantown and Breck to move up.
You missed the point entirely. YOU don't get to designate yourself. Your designation is forced upon you but who you play is not. Further, we have virtually zero sandbagging in Wisconsin because no one wants to play 10-0 games on purpose and in rare times they do they do not schedule another game with them. If a B team and a A team are a good fit for playing a competitive game against eachother then there is ZERO reason they shouldn't play eachother. It's good for everyone. Further, there is no sense in sandbagging because you are given your designation as either an A, B or C team and it's based on club size. And that designation only means something come state tourney/regional play off time. You can't "sandbag" anything for that as that is also dictated to you. I think you need to re-read everything, this doesn't lead to more sandbagging it gets rid of it almost 100%. Your system encouraged sandbagging etc... by leaving the wrong things up to the associations. We left the right things up to our assocations and took the other stuff away and that is one problem we don't have
My response was to your first sentence and regarding the way the current MN Hockey system is set up. Nothing to do with WI, I didn't even read the rest.
If you are not going to read it then don't respond. It makes you look very foolish

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